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impenetrable city-sized dome. ww starts behind hal's shields. she has her usual weapons.

can the team take him down?

It depends on WW's speed:
perception, movement to defend, and counter attack speed.

If those speeds are not enough then the team loses. Otherwise, the team wins.

Either solos tbh.

Originally posted by carver9
Either solos tbh.

Hal is not beating Superman.

Originally posted by h1a8
Hal is not beating Superman.

If Zod is a 7, where would you rank Superman (Superman said they are equals, but im interested in your answer)?

I actually would say the team has some chances
But some posts like this
Originally posted by carver9
Either solos tbh.
Is definitely far easier to argue against lol

Post crisis, they'd have 50/50 chance, currently though? Superman easily tbh, he's on a different level altogether. Originally posted by carver9
Either solos tbh.
This idiot lol. Originally posted by carver9
If Zod is a 7, where would you rank Superman (Superman said they are equals, but im interested in your answer)?
In the same series, Superman casually overpowered Hal and had to hold back not to seriously injure him.

Originally posted by carver9
If Zod is a 7, where would you rank Superman (Superman said they are equals, but im interested in your answer)?

Do you think Zod should be credited with all of Superman's high-end feats in a forum setting?

That aside, character ranking doesn't determine who wins - what matters is how a character wins. Superman is significantly faster than Hal and strong enough to shatter his constructs in a single blow. He can knock him out in short order.

Hal has had so many absurd, bonkers feats in the last decade that if he was in marvel, you'd be hearing he was above Thanos lol. The fact that Superman is still a level above him is simply absurd lol.

Originally posted by h1a8
Do you think Zod should be credited with all of Superman's high-end feats in a forum setting?

That aside, character ranking doesn't determine who wins - what matters is how a character wins. Superman is significantly faster than Hal and strong enough to shatter his constructs in a single blow. He can knock him out in short order.

Answer my question.

Originally posted by leonidas
impenetrable city-sized dome. ww starts behind hal's shields. she has her usual weapons.

can the team take him down?

It would be interesting how this works - WW has no real long range weaponry. Not saying who wins in the fight, am just wondering how the mechanics of it all.

MAtch starts, WW does....nothing, I guess, because if she tries to do anything (lasso, punch, tiara, sword, whatever) then she won't have the shield protecting her.

Originally posted by carver9
Answer my question.

I will if you agree to answer mine immediately afterwards.

Originally posted by h1a8
I will if you agree to answer mine immediately afterwards.

I agree to answer afterwards.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It would be interesting how this works - WW has no real long range weaponry. Not saying who wins in the fight, am just wondering how the mechanics of it all.

MAtch starts, WW does....nothing, I guess, because if she tries to do anything (lasso, punch, tiara, sword, whatever) then she won't have the shield protecting her.

that's how she always fights him? and hal would still be there, though hal could easily outfit her in armor if he wanted to be creative.... how about creating kryptonite armor for her...?

Originally posted by leonidas
that's how she always fights him? and hal would still be there, though hal could easily outfit her in armor if he wanted to be creative.... how about creating kryptonite armor for her...?

Yeah I just assumed it was a bubble type shield?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah I just assumed it was a bubble type shield?

that's how it starts just to prevent the whole blitz debate. after that they have a bit of time to plan so can do whatever they want from there. i think the team likely takes it. hal's feats and diana's magic is a tough combo.

@H1...

I think Zod could replicate Superman's fts, yes. They are basically the same characters except Zod doesn't hold back. Superman even thinks they are equals. Zod will never be in Superman position of fts because he's no hero but Zod can beat Superman and Superman can beat Zod. I can't give Zod Superman fts though because thats not how this works. So do you think Superman and Zod are close or no? I'm asking for a reason.

Originally posted by carver9
@H1...

I think Zod could replicate Superman's fts, yes. They are basically the same characters except Zod doesn't hold back. Superman even thinks they are equals. Zod will never be in Superman position of fts because he's no hero but Zod can beat Superman and Superman can beat Zod. I can't give Zod Superman fts though because thats not how this works. So do you think Superman and Zod are close or no? I'm asking for a reason.

Originally posted by carver9
@H1...

I think Zod could replicate Superman's fts, yes. They are basically the same characters except Zod doesn't hold back. Superman even thinks they are equals. Zod will never be in Superman position of fts because he's no hero but Zod can beat Superman and Superman can beat Zod. I can't give Zod Superman fts though because thats not how this works. So do you think Superman and Zod are close or no? I'm asking for a reason.

"Gets Superman's feats" means that, in a forum fight, Zod would be operating at the same level Superman was when performing his highest-end feats.

So you're agreeing that in a forum setting, Zod would be granted the same level of speed, strength, and durability that Superman demonstrated during his top showings?

If not, then Zod isn't on Superman's level in a forum fight - because Superman will be operating at those levels in a forum fight.

Switching gears for a moment:
Superman is far more skilled with his powers than Zod. He wields his abilities with the precision of a Swiss army knife - versatile and refined. I also don't think Zod fully understands, knows, and or has mastered all of his powers the way Superman has.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's how it starts just to prevent the whole blitz debate. after that they have a bit of time to plan so can do whatever they want from there. i think the team likely takes it. hal's feats and diana's magic is a tough combo.
Yeah, I guess he can speedblitz after the first five seconds

Originally posted by h1a8
"Gets Superman's feats" means that, in a forum fight, Zod would be operating at the same level Superman was when performing his highest-end feats.

So you're agreeing that in a forum setting, Zod would be granted the same level of speed, strength, and durability that Superman demonstrated during his top showings?

If not, then Zod isn't on Superman's level in a forum fight - because Superman will be operating at those levels in a forum fight.

Switching gears for a moment:
Superman is far more skilled with his powers than Zod. He wields his abilities with the precision of a Swiss army knife - versatile and refined. I also don't think Zod fully understands, knows, and or has mastered all of his powers the way Superman has.

I disagree with all of this. If Zod is a 7, where would you put holding back Superman since he's a 10? Answer carefully.

Zod scales up from Superman ducklips, Superman doesn't scale down from Zod. That's not how it works.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Zod scales up from Superman ducklips, Superman doesn't scale down from Zod. That's not how it works.

If Zod is a 7 and Superman is a 10, where would you put holding back Superman? Superman himself said Zod is his equal.

Why do character statements suddenly count?

Originally posted by carver9
I disagree with all of this. If Zod is a 7, where would you put holding back Superman since he's a 10? Answer carefully.

1. Superman holding back doesn't affect his durability, perception speed, movement speed, or maximum strength. The only factor to rank is his power output - how strong his attacks are.

2. If Superman holds back, it only continues until he's at risk of losing. Once that happens, he progressively lets loose to avoid defeat. Starting the fight holding back and finishing it at higher output doesn't reflect his overall rating.

3. Holding back Superman is situational, as his power output varies depending on the opponent. He holds back more against Batman, less against Aquaman, even less against Zod, and even less against Darkseid. So we can't just give a blind rating to a holding back Superman.

Lastly, this is a debate forum.
That means debate - state each point you disagree with and give your reasons.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. If Superman holds back, it only continues until he's at risk of losing. Once that happens, he progressively lets loose to avoid defeat. Superman (like every phucking superhero) has lost fights many times on-panel. You can argue that he should not have, but do not pretend he has not on-panel.

Originally posted by ODG
Superman (like every phucking superhero) has lost fights many times on-panel. You can argue that he should not have, but do not pretend he has not on-panel.
You finally met your intellectual equal, h1a8. Congratulations.

^ Given your well-documented attitude towards me, this strikes me as insulting h1a8.

In a conversation that had nothing to do with you.

And you keep pretending you aren't obsessed with me? Like you didn't chase after me for 200+ posts across 10+ years while being ignored? jfc

Originally posted by ODG
^ Given your well-documented attitude towards me, this strikes me as insulting h1a8.

In a conversation that had nothing to do with you.

And you keep pretending you aren't obsessed with me? Like you didn't chase after me for 200+ posts across 10+ years while being ignored? jfc
You're right, H1A8 isn't retarded like you.

It's a public forum, I'll post whatever I want. Deal with it, retard.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'll post whatever I want but I will pretend that I am not singularly butthurt obsessed over one such KMC poster even though I end up chasing them for 200+ posts across 10+ years even though they put me on ignore Yes, well. So long as you own to it.

Originally posted by ODG
Yes, well. So long as you own to it.
Editing my posts to fantasise what I'll say lol. This is epitome of pathetic behaviour.

^ Comparing with you crying in every thread about me for 200+ posts across 10+ years while you were ignored?

laughcry

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Superman holding back doesn't affect his durability, perception speed, movement speed, or maximum strength. The only factor to rank is his power output - how strong his attacks are.

2. If Superman holds back, it only continues until he's at risk of losing. Once that happens, he progressively lets loose to avoid defeat. Starting the fight holding back and finishing it at higher output doesn't reflect his overall rating.

3. Holding back Superman is situational, as his power output varies depending on the opponent. He holds back more against Batman, less against Aquaman, even less against Zod, and even less against Darkseid. So we can't just give a blind rating to a holding back Superman.

Lastly, this is a debate forum.
That means debate - state each point you disagree with and give your reasons.

Answer my question, please.

Originally posted by ODG
Superman (like every phucking superhero) has lost fights many times on-panel. You can argue that he should not have, but do not pretend he has not on-panel.

You're taking me out of context and completely misunderstanding the exchange between me and Carv. I'm well aware that Superman has lost in a comic. Carv asked me to rank a holding back Superman compared to Zod, and I gave him two reasons why that's not possible.

The second reason - the one you're responding to - is essentially pointing out that Superman may start the fight holding back but can progressively hold back less and less to avoid defeat. That means his rating shifts throughout the fight. Variable levels of holding back are not the same as assigning a specific, fixed level of restraint.

I'm more than willing to have a discussion with you without any insults. I'm a reasonable person, more than my past self, and misunderstandings happen - after all, we're only human.

Prove that his level of restraint is different. Show me the levels of restraints he use against Zod. I want to see it going up while fighting him.

Originally posted by carver9
Prove that his level of restraint is different. Show me the levels of restraints he use against Zod. I want to see it going up while fighting him. Wouldn't that be common sense? Why would he fight Darkseid with the same power level as Batman or Joker? Why would he keep holding back at the same level while he's losing? What's to prove?

Why are you asking me to show you things I never even claimed?

I think he obviously fights Batman with the same power level he does when fighting Doomsday Carver is very wise.

Batman is just that awesome.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think he obviously fights Batman with the same power level he does when fighting Doomsday Carver is very wise.

Batman is just that awesome.

Does he fight Zaar, Zod, Darkseid, and Doomsday at different power levels? All of these people came near to killing him. You want to throw in a human friend to help your disgusting argument when you know the topic isn't about something like this. Snake.

Originally posted by h1a8
Wouldn't that be common sense? Why would he fight Darkseid with the same power level as Batman or Joker? Why would he keep holding back at the same level while he's losing? What's to prove?

Why are you asking me to show you things I never even claimed?

Ok, the exception is humans. We are discussing super humans here. Would he fight Zod (someone he's even called his most dangerous adversary(, Zaar, and Doomsday at different levels? Just use a little common sense and know this discussion isn't about Superman vs Jubilee.

Originally posted by carver9
Does he fight Zaar, Zod, Darkseid, and Doomsday at different power levels? All of these people came near to killing him. You want to throw in a human friend to help your disgusting argument when you know the topic isn't about something like this. Snake.

So answer this, then and there's occasions when fighting these beings, he's at the brink of either death or ktfo. Add Red Cloud to this show was on the verge of killing Superman until she let him go or the 3 merged kryptonians who Superman even admitted if him and Supergirl didn't stop this monster, they would kill everyone (and remember, he got saved when he even admitted he could not take another punch).

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, let's end this debate. Lol. Three regular krytponians combined is three times stronger than Superman, faster than Superman. He was beaten up by them to the point that him teamed with Supergirl couldn't even hold up part of a bridge. Heck, he even said he couldn't take another punch. This creature is omniversal/omnipotent.

https://i.ibb.co/209NScvp/Screenshot-20250404-164405-Samsung-Internet.png
https://i.ibb.co/KpbGQ4sR/Screenshot-20250404-164428-Samsung-Internet.png
https://i.ibb.co/k2PzxbDg/Screenshot-20250404-164444-Samsung-Internet.png
https://i.ibb.co/spgLv7qH/Screenshot-20250404-164512-Samsung-Internet.png
https://i.ibb.co/BVXfgNqx/Screenshot-20250404-164611-Samsung-Internet.png
https://i.ibb.co/hRSYL4r4/Screenshot-20250404-164636-Samsung-Internet.png

Let me know.

Also, Superman even admitted he couldn't move Black Adam out of the heart of the city and Adam was even holding back because he knew Superman was being manipulated.

Originally posted by carver9
Does he fight Zaar, Zod, Darkseid, and Doomsday at different power levels? All of these people came near to killing him. You want to throw in a human friend to help your disgusting argument when you know the topic isn't about something like this. Snake.

H1 was the one who first mentioned Batman, not me.

Not my fault you can't read, is it??? Is Batman a special case again I thought a few days ago he wasn't, and should be treated the same as any other character??

Originally posted by carver9
So answer this, then and there's occasions when fighting these beings, he's at the brink of either death or ktfo. Add Red Cloud to this show was on the verge of killing Superman until she let him go or the 3 merged kryptonians who Superman even admitted if him and Supergirl didn't stop this monster, they would kill everyone (and remember, he got saved when he even admitted he could not take another punch).

the obvious answer to your question carv is PIS. when he's not at full capacity it's pis /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
the obvious answer to your question carv is PIS. when he's not at full capacity it's pis /shrug

This is what I'm trying to show to him, lol.

Originally posted by leonidas
the obvious answer to your question carv is PIS. when he's not at full capacity it's pis /shrug

So anytime Superman loses, it's PIS and not his opponents being too powerful for him? Are there any other characters this applies to?

lol i've tried fighting that battle....tbh hal would be the only one who you might reasonably argue for. maybe kyle. though i suppose you could try arguing cis since they did you the favor of proving superman likes to underestimate his opponents regularly. it's not an argument you'll win though. what happens in the comics really has no bearing lol

I agree, mostly. All I'm saying is, we can't discredit comics. Not all of it. I can't say every fight with Hulk, his loses, are PIS because he didn't start glowing green and becoming significantly more powerful. Same with Thor, and Surfer. All of these people hold back but that doesn't take away from their loses either.

@H1...

I'm asking you this for a reason because you'll try to twist shit. So answer the question.

Originally posted by carver9
@H1...

I'm asking you this for a reason because you'll try to twist shit. So answer the question.
In a forum fight, Superman holds every physical advantage against Zod.

I'm not going to twist anything. I don't go by ratings - I don't even know what that's supposed to mean or how it applies to a theoretical discussion.

Originally posted by h1a8
In a forum fight, Superman holds every physical advantage against Zod.

I'm not going to twist anything. I don't go by ratings - I don't even know what that's supposed to mean or how it applies to a theoretical discussion.

In fights from what we've seen, Superman doesnt hold a single advantage against Zod. Not one. You answered my question about Superman and Zod from a 10 ranking but youre avoiding a holding back Superman and Zod question. I wonder why.

Example. I would say Thor is a 7 and average Hulk is an 8.5. Non-holding back Hulk is a solid 12 and Thor is a 7.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree, mostly. All I'm saying is, we can't discredit comics. Not all of it. I can't say every fight with Hulk, his loses, are PIS because he didn't start glowing green and becoming significantly more powerful. Same with Thor, and Surfer. All of these people hold back but that doesn't take away from their loses either.

oh don't get me wrong lol i'm not implying there isn't a blatant double standard in the forum. several in the forum will consistently play up full capacity for one and while seeming to forget the full capacity rule extends to BOTH parties. but...i don't see that changing any time soon. lol

Originally posted by leonidas
oh don't get me wrong lol i'm not implying there isn't a blatant double standard in the forum. several in the forum will consistently play up full capacity for one and while seeming to forget the full capacity rule extends to BOTH parties. but...i don't see that changing any time soon. lol

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True.

Metallo can beat Superman. What're their ratings?

Batman can beat Metallo. What's his rating?

So smart, is our Carver.

Weakness exploitation.

Batman sucks.

Thanks for the compliment.

Harley Quinn could beat that red underwear wearing weakling.

Originally posted by carver9
In fights from what we've seen, Superman doesnt hold a single advantage against Zod. Not one. You answered my question about Superman and Zod from a 10 ranking but youre avoiding a holding back Superman and Zod question. I wonder why.
Again, ratings by themselves prove nothing about who wins. It's a waste of time to argue over them. I humored you to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it turns out I was right.

Also, the rating applies to forum fights. In a forum fight, Superman gets all of his feats beyond just his fight with Zod, meaning he's stronger, faster, more durable, and so on. Holding back only lowers his attack strength, nothing else.

You're basically trying to be slick by ignoring all of Superman's feats and focusing only on his fight with Zod, then using that fight to apply faulty ABC logic.

That would mean his feat of casually walking around and having a long conversation in a fraction of a nanosecond doesn't count. Right?

Originally posted by h1a8
Again, ratings by themselves prove nothing about who wins. It's a waste of time to argue over them. I humored you to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it turns out I was right.

Also, the rating applies to forum fights. In a forum fight, Superman gets all of his feats beyond just his fight with Zod, meaning he's stronger, faster, more durable, and so on. Holding back only lowers his attack strength, nothing else.

You're basically trying to be slick by ignoring all of Superman's feats and focusing only on his fight with Zod, then using that fight to apply faulty ABC logic.

That would mean his feat of casually walking around and having a long conversation in a fraction of a nanosecond doesn't count. Right?

You do know that if fts are fts, Doomsday doesnt stand a chance in hell of beating Hulk, right? The only reason Doomsday does well against Hulk is due to his fight against Superman, thats it. If we look at fts alone, Doomsday, Black Adam, Damage, The General, some of the JLA best villains gets one punch killed by Hulk. Thor would crush them as well. Heck, an argument can be made on Thor outright stomping Darkseid if we just use cheese fts. Doomsday is only relevant because of his fights with Superman. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by leonidas
oh don't get me wrong lol i'm not implying there isn't a blatant double standard in the forum. several in the forum will consistently play up full capacity for one and while seeming to forget the full capacity rule extends to BOTH parties. but...i don't see that changing any time soon. lol

Yeah, pretty much this.

Originally posted by carver9
You do know that if fts are fts, Doomsday doesnt stand a chance in hell of beating Hulk, right? The only reason Doomsday does well against Hulk is due to his fight against Superman, thats it. If we look at fts alone, Doomsday, Black Adam, Damage, The General, some of the JLA best villains gets one punch killed by Hulk. Thor would crush them as well. Heck, an argument can be made on Thor outright stomping Darkseid if we just use cheese fts. Doomsday is only relevant because of his fights with Superman. Nothing more, nothing less.
By feats Superman would one punch kill Thor, hulk and silver surfer at the same time. You wouldn't win a feat war with Superman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
By feats Superman would one punch kill Thor, hulk and silver surfer at the same time. You wouldn't win a feat war with Superman.

Yes I would, lol. Most of you overexaggerate Superman's fts. Like I said, if we are using fts, Hulk would decimate Doomsday, and kill DOS Doomsday with a backhand.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, pretty much this.

This applies to you, weirdo 🤣🤣🤣. We literally had a debate not too long ago where you was arguing for DOS Doomsday saying he killed a powerful Superman which dictates how powerful Doomsday is. Troll of the highest order.

Originally posted by carver9
You do know that if fts are fts, Doomsday doesnt stand a chance in hell of beating Hulk, right? The only reason Doomsday does well against Hulk is due to his fight against Superman, thats it. If we look at fts alone, Doomsday, Black Adam, Damage, The General, some of the JLA best villains gets one punch killed by Hulk. Thor would crush them as well. Heck, an argument can be made on Thor outright stomping Darkseid if we just use cheese fts. Doomsday is only relevant because of his fights with Superman. Nothing more, nothing less.

Drawing blood from Superman, breaking his arm, and similar feats demonstrate immense power. It takes astronomical force to accomplish those things.

However, strength alone isn't what matters; speed is even more important, and durability plays a bigger than strength as well.

We can only scale a character based on the average portrayal of another character, since their performance varies at different times. That means Zod scales to Superman's average level unless Superman was performing at high-end levels specifically during his fight with Zod.

Lastly, if a character is stated or intended to be stronger than another, they inherit all of the weaker character's highest strength feats. For example, World War Hulk inherits all of Savage Hulk's strength feats, even though Savage Hulk has greater feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
Drawing blood from Superman, breaking his arm, and similar feats demonstrate immense power. It takes astronomical force to accomplish those things.

However, strength alone isn't what matters; speed is even more important, and durability plays a bigger than strength as well.

We can only scale a character based on the average portrayal of another character, since their performance varies at different times. That means Zod scales to Superman's average level unless Superman was performing at high-end levels specifically during his fight with Zod.

Lastly, if a character is stated or intended to be stronger than another, they inherit all of the weaker character's highest strength feats. For example, World War Hulk inherits all of Savage Hulk's strength feats, even though Savage Hulk has greater feats.

Was Superman performing at high levels when he fought Doomsday? Remember, in the same book Superman got koed by pillars falling on him and an exploding gas station. So, was Superman at his best when he fought Doomsday?

Lastly, Zod was said to be Superman physical equal, AND his most dangerous foe. Does that place him at 10?

Hulk fts>>>>>>Doomsday fts. Do we agree that Hulk 1 punch kills him?

Originally posted by carver9
Was Superman performing at high levels when he fought Doomsday? Remember, in the same book Superman got koed by pillars falling on him and an exploding gas station. So, was Superman at his best when he fought Doomsday?

Lastly, Zod was said to be Superman physical equal, AND his most dangerous foe. Does that place him at 10?

Hulk fts>>>>>>Doomsday fts. Do we agree that Hulk 1 punch kills him?

Originally posted by h1a8

Lastly, if a character is stated or intended to be stronger than another, they inherit all of the weaker character's highest strength feats. For example, World War Hulk inherits all of Savage Hulk's strength feats, even though Savage Hulk has greater feats.

Some incarnations of Doomsday are intended to be stronger than Superman, so those versions inherit all of Superman's highest feats, unless those feats occurred after Superman grew stronger following their encounters.

Make up your mind. You're essentially agreeing that Zod inherits all of Superman's high-end feats since they are described as physical equals. You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by carver9
Yes I would, lol. Most of you overexaggerate Superman's fts. Like I said, if we are using fts, Hulk would decimate Doomsday, and kill DOS Doomsday with a backhand.
Superman would one punch kill Hulk by feats, so would Doomsday.

Originally posted by h1a8
Some incarnations of Doomsday are intended to be stronger than Superman, so those versions inherit all of Superman's highest feats, unless those feats occurred after Superman grew stronger following their encounters.

Make up your mind. You're essentially agreeing that Zod inherits all of Superman's high-end feats since they are described as physical equals. You can't have it both ways.

So fts doesnt matter now when it comes to Doomsday? This is why I ask you the questions I ask you, because you flop sh** too much just to suit your character. Then youre asking me to make up my mind when you're literally giving Doomsday Superman fts. 🤦🏿🤦🏿🤦🏿

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman would one punch kill Hulk by feats, so would Doomsday.

What fts does Doomsday have? Please make sure you don't give him Superman fts since you want to butt into our conversations.

Originally posted by carver9
So fts doesnt matter now when it comes to Doomsday? This is why I ask you the questions I ask you, because you flop sh** too much just to suit your character. Then youre asking me to make up my mind when you're literally giving Doomsday Superman fts. 🤦🏿🤦🏿🤦🏿

Take a stance. What's your position? Do characters shown and intended to be stronger inherit all the high-end strength feats of weaker characters? I'm not going to argue with you about it - I'll respect your opinion.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're not understanding my point.

It depends on the number of showings they have, total.

Billy has quite a few showings. So his feats need to be taken into account, more than his fights.

Gladiator does not (relative to Billy). So his fights count for much more than his feats. He is the same like Orion, who has even fewer showings still.

Hulk has TONS of showings. So his fights and feats are all equal(ish) in weighting.

IOW: if a character has very few appearances (LT, In-Betweener, Orion, Galactus) then their fights are a better gauge of their power.

The more showings a character has, and the more they start interacting with other characters, the more their fights get diluted. Lobo is a good example, as are the Lanterns. You yourself acknowledge, in team books Lobo is less impressive. Lanterns are terrible against bricks. That's when their feats become more of a gauge, where writers don't have to dilute them. Batman and Cap are also good examples of this.
Originally posted by carver9
This applies to you, weirdo 🤣🤣🤣. We literally had a debate not too long ago where you was arguing for DOS Doomsday saying he killed a powerful Superman which dictates how powerful Doomsday is. Troll of the highest order.

Nearly eight years ago, now.

Originally posted by carver9
What fts does Doomsday have? Please make sure you don't give him Superman fts since you want to butt into our conversations.
He literally punched out from hell lol

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nearly eight years ago, now.

Doomsday and Zod both have enough showings, and again, if Doomsday can get Superman showings, why not Zod? At the end of the day, Doomsday doesn't have the fts that proves he can beat Hulk. The only thing we can go by is his portrayal against Superman. If we are using just fts as an indication on how powerful a character is, Hulk would fold Doomsday. No disputing this. Thor would as well.

DoS Doomsday does? You specifically named DoS Doomsday, so what feats has he collected since then?

DoS Doomsday doesn't have many showings, he literally appears in one storyline, maybe more if you allow the stories before he met Superman. So yeah, his fights would hold more weight than his feats.

Superman around the time of DoS, despite being 'Byrne Superman', still had plenty of appearances - loads, actually. So I would judge Superman around that time based on his feats. And Doomsday - around that time - on his fights.

I mean, Daredevil probably has better bench pressing feats than Doomsday, even now lol. But would DD (Daredevil) beat DD (Doomsday) based on bench feats? No lol. We judge DD (Doomsday) based on fights, as he doesn't have as many showings still.

If he doesn't have the fts, no, he can not win. This is using your logic, though.

Fights are feats though, when they have relatively few showings. That's my logic.
When they start getting jobbed out, then their fights don't count as much because their fights become PIS. I've always been consistent on this.

You should stop trying to just argue against me and actually try and understand my points, tbh. Every time, you argue for the sake of arguing.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fights are feats though, when they have relatively few showings. That's my logic.
When they start getting jobbed out, then their fights don't count as much because their fights become PIS. I've always been consistent on this.

You should stop trying to just argue against me and actually try and understand my points, tbh. Every time, you argue for the sake of arguing.

Shadow Dragon has few showings as well, but one of his showings consists of working Superman while the other was him being treated like fodder against Shiva.

^Well one of those sounds like PIS. Which one do you believe is?

Originally posted by h1a8
^Well one of those sounds like PIS. Which one do you believe is?

Shadow Dragon only has a couple of fts, so neither are PIS if we take what Dark said for granted. At the end of the day, neither Zod or Doomsday have as many showings as Superman and Hulk and both does extremely well and even beat Superman. So again, if fights are usable, Doomsday and Zod are Suoerman physical equal. If fights doesnt count, Doomsday gets one punch killed by Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
Shadow Dragon only has a couple of fts, so neither are PIS if we take what Dark said for granted. At the end of the day, neither Zod or Doomsday have as many showings as Superman and Hulk and both does extremely well and even beat Superman. So again, if fights are usable, Doomsday and Zod are Suoerman physical equal. If fights doesnt count, Doomsday gets one punch killed by Hulk.
Doomsday punched out of hell Carver, has Hulk punched out of hell?

Originally posted by carver9
Shadow Dragon has few showings as well, but one of his showings consists of working Superman while the other was him being treated like fodder against Shiva.

Good showing for Shadow Dragon

Poor showing for Superman.

It's like Batman and WW - which I know you love. Good showing for Batman. Bad showing for WW. Simple.

The snake that choked Hulk out had a great showing. Hulk had a bad showing.

Welcome to comics.

Originally posted by carver9
Shadow Dragon only has a couple of fts, so neither are PIS if we take what Dark said for granted. At the end of the day, neither Zod or Doomsday have as many showings as Superman and Hulk and both does extremely well and even beat Superman. So again, if fights are usable, Doomsday and Zod are Suoerman physical equal. If fights doesnt count, Doomsday gets one punch killed by Hulk.

We also take context into account, though? Yes, Shadow Dragon worked Superman - but was Superman going at Full Capacity, though? This is why we can't just use random scans and respect threads - the context of the characters, the plot etc, all comes into play.

If in a fight, no context needed, just a straight all out brawl, Superman got worked over by Shadow Dragon, despite Superman going all-out, then yeah, it's a great showing for Shadow Dragon, and he is now one of the premium speedsters in all comics. He's now able to speedblitz Hulk, Thor, Superman, Surfer etc etc in a straight brawl.

What's that? Superman wasn't using his nanosecond-fighting-Flash-outspeeding-light speeds when fighting Shadow Dragon? Oh.....then it's suddenly not that great a speed feat for Shadow Dragon, is it, unless we can show Superman was going at his top speed.

If a racecar is going at 2mph, I can run faster than that. And if that same car doubles it's speed to 4mph, I'm still running faster than it.

Does it mean I am faster than a racecar's top speed?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Doomsday punched out of hell Carver, has Hulk punched out of hell?

And Hulk has powered through a blast that was ripping reality apart and was overpowering a being that was more powerful than the combined might of the infinite Gauntlet and Phoenix Force. Try harder.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We also take context into account, though? Yes, Shadow Dragon worked Superman - but was Superman going at Full Capacity, though? This is why we can't just use random scans and respect threads - the context of the characters, the plot etc, all comes into play.

If in a fight, no context needed, just a straight all out brawl, Superman got worked over by Shadow Dragon, despite Superman going all-out, then yeah, it's a great showing for Shadow Dragon, and he is now one of the premium speedsters in all comics. He's now able to speedblitz Hulk, Thor, Superman, Surfer etc etc in a straight brawl.

What's that? Superman wasn't using his nanosecond-fighting-Flash-outspeeding-light speeds when fighting Shadow Dragon? Oh.....then it's suddenly not that great a speed feat for Shadow Dragon, is it, unless we can show Superman was going at his top speed.

If a racecar is going at 2mph, I can run faster than that. And if that same car doubles it's speed to 4mph, I'm still running faster than it.

Does it mean I am faster than a racecar's top speed?

Zod has consistently shown he is on Superman's level and could beat him. Doomsday has. Darkseid has. Damage has. The General has. They don't need to pull planets or lift a building to prove this, either.

Originally posted by carver9
Zod has consistently shown he is on Superman's level and could beat him. Doomsday has. Darkseid has. Damage has. The General has. They don't need to pull planets or lift a building to prove this, either.

...

What is it you think I am arguing here? I'm saying fights ARE feats, and that they count, just that with characters not used much (Zod/Darkseid/Doomsday) fights hold more weight than 'benching the earth' type feats. Then when characters start interacting more with the wider universe (Damage vs Batman, Damage vs Congorilla, Damage vs Poison Ivy) their fights start to hold less weight as they start getting jobbed out, and it is their feats (what you call 'space cheese', but is wrong) that start to hold more weight.

I don't see why you're calling me weirdo and a troll and getting your panties all twisted up.....it seems pretty reasonable?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True.

Metallo can beat Superman. What're their ratings?

Batman can beat Metallo. What's his rating?

So smart, is our Carver.

I was agreeing that ratings mean nothing, and you agree as you say, weakness exploitation (and other contextual matters) exists. Just because A is a 5, and B is a 6, doesn't mean A can't beat 6. Ratings don't mean everything.

Doesn't seem that weird and trolling to me? After all, Batman is rated at a power level of 75, WW is 95, Superman is 100. Canon comics show this.

Originally posted by carver9
Shadow Dragon only has a couple of fts, so neither are PIS if we take what Dark said for granted. At the end of the day, neither Zod or Doomsday have as many showings as Superman and Hulk and both does extremely well and even beat Superman. So again, if fights are usable, Doomsday and Zod are Suoerman physical equal. If fights doesnt count, Doomsday gets one punch killed by Hulk.

Logically, one of them has to be PIS, unless there's some context you're not disclosing.

So, your stance is that if a character is shown to physically match another - barring PIS - they automatically gain access to all of that character's best feats in a forum fight?

If that's not your stance, then simply state your stance. How should strength feats be weighed against ABC logic?

Superman will have planetary strength in a forum fight.
Which one is correct:

Zod is equal to Superman but will not be operating at planetary strength in a forum.

Or Zod is equal to Superman and will also be operating at planetary strength in a forum fight.

Originally posted by carver9
And Hulk has powered through a blast that was ripping reality apart and was overpowering a being that was more powerful than the combined might of the infinite Gauntlet and Phoenix Force. Try harder.
Scan?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Scan?

We've already discussed this and you cried about it. I'm not ppstomg the same scans to you.

Originally posted by h1a8
Logically, one of them has to be PIS, unless there's some context you're not disclosing.

So, your stance is that if a character is shown to physically match another - barring PIS - they automatically gain access to all of that character's best feats in a forum fight?

If that's not your stance, then simply state your stance. How should strength feats be weighed against ABC logic?

Superman will have planetary strength in a forum fight.
Which one is correct:

Zod is equal to Superman but will not be operating at planetary strength in a forum.

Or Zod is equal to Superman and will also be operating at planetary strength in a forum fight.

My argument is, Zod doesn't have to go around lifting buildings, moving at nanosecond speeds to prove his is Supermans equal when it's pretty freaking obvious. Same with Doomsday. He doesnt need to bench earth weights, or build a puzzle in less than a second or read every book in a library in less than 5 minutes for him to curb Superman every single time they fight. Zod is Supermans equal and Doomsday is more powerful than Superman without any of those fts.

Originally posted by carver9
My argument is, Zod doesn't have to go around lifting buildings, moving at nanosecond speeds to prove his is Supermans equal when it's pretty freaking obvious. Same with Doomsday. He doesnt need to bench earth weights, or build a puzzle in less than a second or read every book in a library in less than 5 minutes for him to curb Superman every single time they fight. Zod is Supermans equal and Doomsday is more powerful than Superman without any of those fts.

Then answer this question :
If Superman comes into a forum fight with planetary strength then
Which one is correct?

Zod is equal to Superman but will not be operating at planetary strength in a forum.

Or Zod is equal to Superman and will also be operating at planetary strength in a forum fight.

Originally posted by h1a8
Then answer this question :
If Superman comes into a forum fight with planetary strength then
Which one is correct?

Zod is equal to Superman but will not be operating at planetary strength in a forum.

Or Zod is equal to Superman and will also be operating at planetary strength in a forum fight.

CIS is on, so Zod would probably start off wrecking Superman until Superman stops holding back. Zod would start off stronger due to CIS and Superman would eventually ramp up to his level. So both would be at planetary but Superman just a step behind.

Originally posted by carver9
We've already discussed this and you cried about it. I'm not ppstomg the same scans to you.
So, you don't have any scans? Good to know. Originally posted by carver9
CIS is on, so Zod would probably start off wrecking Superman until Superman stops holding back. Zod would start off stronger due to CIS and Superman would eventually ramp up to his level. So both would be at planetary but Superman just a step behind.


What an idiot.

Is CIS on? Yes or no?

What does CIS on mean, to you?

Originally posted by carver9
Is CIS on? Yes or no?
Where's the scans Carver?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What does CIS on mean, to you?

Character induced stupidity meaning they will fight in character.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Where's the scans Carver?

What scans?

Originally posted by carver9
Character induced stupidity meaning they will fight in character.

It doesn't apply here, though.

CIS has two forms - stupidity (like for Rhino and Bizarro etc) and inhibition (for Superman and Surfer etc), which depends on the surroundings and the opponent.

Superman, according to the rules, won't be inhibited here. Not against Zod, not against Hal, not against WW. CIS would be off.

None of these characters suffer from CIS.

From the rules:



Against Zod/Hal/WW, Superman would go all-out from the start (and obv, vice-versa). He knows them personally (Personality and Experience). He isn't fighting amongst civilians (Arena).

So he's not holding back. The rules give the example of MMH vs Amazo:



Superman knows Zod, Hal, WW. He will go for broke right at the start (and obv, vice versa).

There is no CIS/CIP in effect.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
From the rules:



Against Zod/Hal/WW, Superman would go all-out from the start (and obv, vice-versa). He knows them personally (Personality and Experience). He isn't fighting amongst civilians (Arena).

So he's not holding back. The rules give the example of MMH vs Amazo:



Superman knows Zod, Hal, WW. He will go for broke right at the start (and obv, vice versa).

There is no CIS/CIP in effect.

But he also isn't fighting to kill like Zod would. We've actually seen pieces of this play out in comics. Zod was literally standing there letting Superman wail on him and Superman was even screaming out "fall, damn you" and Zod smiled at Superman failed attempt at trying to hurt him. Zod fights to kill, Superman doesnt.

Originally posted by carver9
But he also isn't fighting to kill like Zod would. We've actually seen pieces of this play out in comics. Zod was literally standing there letting Superman wail on him and Superman was even screaming out "fall, damn you" and Zod smiled at Superman failed attempt at trying to hurt him. Zod fights to kill, Superman doesnt.

But going all-out doesn't mean killing? Nobody said anything about killing, Superman would be going all-out for the knockout blow. At the same time, he would be using his speed to avoid attacks (if he can), freeze breath, HV, the works.

That's where you guys always misunderstood the rules. In character, Superman isn't going to literally assrape his enemies at lightspeed (and I mean, literally). But he would still be punching with all his strength, avoiding getting hit where possible, etc etc.

He's not holding back. But this doesn't mean killing, either.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But going all-out doesn't mean killing? Nobody said anything about killing, Superman would be going all-out for the knockout blow. At the same time, he would be using his speed to avoid attacks (if he can), freeze breath, HV, the works.

That's where you guys always misunderstood the rules. In character, Superman isn't going to literally assrape his enemies at lightspeed (and I mean, literally). But he would still be punching with all his strength, avoiding getting hit where possible, etc etc.

He's not holding back. But this doesn't mean killing, either.

He would need to kill in order to beat Zod though. There's a huge difference when youre facing an opponent that is literally your equal in every way but one is going for the kill and the other isnt.

Originally posted by carver9
He would need to kill in order to beat Zod though. There's a huge difference when youre facing an opponent that is literally your equal in every way but one is going for the kill and the other isnt.

Does he? Is Zod immune to getting KO'd or crippled or something?

Originally posted by carver9
What scans?
Of the feats you're claiming.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Does he? Is Zod immune to getting KO'd or crippled or something?

He would need to imo. I don't think Zod is immune ta being koed. Has Superman done it since rebirth?

Originally posted by carver9
He would need to imo. I don't think Zod is immune ta being koed. Has Superman done it since rebirth?
Why since Rebirth lol?

Originally posted by carver9
He would need to imo. I don't think Zod is immune ta being koed. Has Superman done it since rebirth?

Why only since rebirth? Aren't they the same? And why do you think he needs to kill to defeat him, since Zod isn't immune to being KOd?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why only since rebirth? Aren't they the same? And why do you think he needs to kill to defeat him, since Zod isn't immune to being KOd?

Is Superman more powerful than his post crisis self? If so, Zod has literally been keeping up with him since rebirth and at a couple of points, had an advantage. Why not rebirth?

Also, Superman admitted Cyborg Superman is just as fast and strong as him, someone that Zod treated like fodder. Superman had to take CS down before he gained his full power...

https://i.ibb.co/27sLCXZX/Screenshot-20250409-141743-Samsung-Internet.png

So Zod's had an amp then?

But why would he need to kill Zod to defeat him, considering Zod isn't immune to being KOd?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So Zod's had an amp then?

But why would he need to kill Zod to defeat him, considering Zod isn't immune to being KOd?

Zod either got an amp or Superman is still at his post crisis levels.

Originally posted by carver9
Also, Superman admitted Cyborg Superman is just as fast and strong as him, someone that Zod treated like fodder. Superman had to take CS down before he gained his full power...

https://i.ibb.co/27sLCXZX/Screenshot-20250409-141743-Samsung-Internet.png
Superman overpowered Cyborg Superman and Eradicator while he was blind lol.

Originally posted by carver9
Zod either got an amp or Superman is still at his post crisis levels.


All this random discussion on Zod who's not even in the thread, I wonder why.

Originally posted by carver9
Zod either got an amp or Superman is still at his post crisis levels.

Or it's PIS? Because we know he's tougher - since you're using character statements, Damage hit Superman harder than when he fought Doomsday - and he wasn't even KOed (assuming we're taking Superman statements). So Superman CAN'T be at Post Crisis levels.

And if you cannot show Zod getting an amp, then it's pure plot that Zod can keep up with him, same way street level heroes aren't turned into pink mist when fighting heralds.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman overpowered Cyborg Superman and Eradicator while he was blind lol.

And Eradicator knocked him out with a single blast comics later.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Or it's PIS? Because we know he's tougher - since you're using character statements, Damage hit Superman harder than when he fought Doomsday - and he wasn't even KOed (assuming we're taking Superman statements). So Superman CAN'T be at Post Crisis levels.

And if you cannot show Zod getting an amp, then it's pure plot that Zod can keep up with him, same way street level heroes aren't turned into pink mist when fighting heralds.

If youre going to troll, we can end this conversation.

Originally posted by carver9
If youre going to troll, we can end this conversation.

I'm not trolling? Zod hasn't been given an explicit amp (that I know of).

Superman is more powerful than he used to be (direct statement with Damage).

Yet how can Zod still keep up with Superman? We KNOW that ABC logic doesn't work, that scaling in comics doesn't work, because nothing is black and white, everything is a murky grey in between. Aquaman can fight evenly with WW, WW can fight evenly with Superman, Superman can fight evenly with Flash.....but Aquaman can't fight evenly with Flash. This is why fights aren't the best gauge, especially when characters with lots of appearances are involved.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm not trolling? Zod hasn't been given an explicit amp (that I know of).

Superman is more powerful than he used to be (direct statement with Damage).

Yet how can Zod still keep up with Superman? We KNOW that ABC logic doesn't work, that scaling in comics doesn't work, because nothing is black and white, everything is a murky grey in between. Aquaman can fight evenly with WW, WW can fight evenly with Superman, Superman can fight evenly with Flash.....but Aquaman can't fight evenly with Flash. This is why fights aren't the best gauge, especially when characters with lots of appearances are involved.

Lol... you're 100% trolling. We literally had an argument about Damage and you discredited the statement of Damage hitting harder than Doomsday. Its painful debating with you. Freaking frustrating. Anyways, let's play your way since you want to accept that statement today (and deny it tomorrow). Wonder Woman said Damage is also stronger than Superman. Do you accept it? Yes or no?

https://i.ibb.co/hFpsKdyT/Damage-Batman-Superman-Wonder-Woman.jpg

Aren't you the same guy that said with least showings, we have to go by fights. Zod falls into that category. Superman has FAR more showings than Zod, so of course he will have more fts. Wait, let me guess, that only applies to Hulk vs Doomsday? You will always be known to me as the highest order of hypocrite on this site. Next is H1, then ABHI.

Originally posted by carver9
And Eradicator knocked him out with a single blast comics later.
What's that got to do with strength?

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... you're 100% trolling. We literally had an argument about Damage and you discredited the statement of Damage hitting harder than Doomsday. Its painful debating with you. Freaking frustrating. Anyways, let's play your way since you want to accept that statement today (and deny it tomorrow). Wonder Woman said Damage is also stronger than Superman. Do you accept it? Yes or no?

https://i.ibb.co/hFpsKdyT/Damage-Batman-Superman-Wonder-Woman.jpg

Aren't you the same guy that said with least showings, we have to go by fights. Zod falls into that category. Superman has FAR more showings than Zod, so of course he will have more fts. Wait, let me guess, that only applies to Hulk vs Doomsday? You will always be known to me as the highest order of hypocrite on this site. Next is H1, then ABHI.
First Zod, now damage? You know both Hal and Diana can't beat Superman in feats so this is what you do lol. Random nonsense.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... you're 100% trolling. We literally had an argument about Damage and you discredited the statement of Damage hitting harder than Doomsday. Its painful debating with you. Freaking frustrating. Anyways, let's play your way since you want to accept that statement today (and deny it tomorrow). Wonder Woman said Damage is also stronger than Superman. Do you accept it? Yes or no?

https://i.ibb.co/hFpsKdyT/Damage-Batman-Superman-Wonder-Woman.jpg

Aren't you the same guy that said with least showings, we have to go by fights. Zod falls into that category. Superman has FAR more showings than Zod, so of course he will have more fts. Wait, let me guess, that only applies to Hulk vs Doomsday? You will always be known to me as the highest order of hypocrite on this site. Next is H1, then ABHI.

...

Do you know WHY I brought Damage up?

I think you think I am a hypocrite, because you have a poor memory and don't remember how things start, lol.

I only mentioned Damage, BECAUSE you started using character statements . You started this whole bit about using what Superman said about Zod being his equal, and Cyborg Superman. Read back, lol. If you hadn't mentioned Superman's statements, and focussed on his actual actions, I wouldn't have brought Damage up.

Smh.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
...

Do you know WHY I brought Damage up?

I think you think I am a hypocrite, because you have a poor memory and don't remember how things start, lol.

I only mentioned Damage, BECAUSE you started using character statements . You started this whole bit about using what Superman said about Zod being his equal, and Cyborg Superman. Read back, lol. If you hadn't mentioned Superman's statements, and focussed on his actual actions, I wouldn't have brought Damage up.

Smh.

So we do agree based off fts, Hulk one punch kills Doomsday?

Originally posted by carver9
So we do agree based off fts, Hulk one punch kills Doomsday?

No! Because of my statement about showings and fight type feats Vs lifting type feats.

Simply put: if you can definitely showcase a character's strength/speed/durability through quantifiable feats, then use that. If you can't, because they don't have enough showings, then you scale off other characters. Simple.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No! Because of my statement about showings and fight type feats Vs lifting type feats.

Simply put: if you can definitely showcase a character's strength/speed/durability through quantifiable feats, then use that. If you can't, because they don't have enough showings, then you scale off other characters. Simple.

So since Zod doesn't have anything close to Superman fts, fight count for the two?

Originally posted by carver9
So since Zod doesn't have anything close to Superman fts, fight count for the two?

Yup. Fights count to show he's on Superman's level, at Superman's usual levels in comics. Same way Thing can hang with Hulk.

When Superman's dials go up to 11, however, then it's a different story. Same way with Hulk - once he goes all out, full capacity, he folds Colossus and Thing etc

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yup. Fights count to show he's on Superman's level, at Superman's usual levels in comics. Same way Thing can hang with Hulk.

When Superman's dials go up to 11, however, then it's a different story. Same way with Hulk - once he goes all out, full capacity, he folds Colossus and Thing etc

Hes not on Superman usual level though. Superman usual level was getting laughed at by Zod...

https://i.ibb.co/5XHyby1Y/ueELJRv.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/V50Q2JD/GvVtjlY.jpg

The usual Superman was trying to drop Zod and failed and then got treated like fodder afterwards. We cant ignore this since fights matter.

Also, Superman was trying to protect his family there and failed. Both Jon and Lois could have died if the kryptonian armor wasn't there.

What's Zod got to do with this thread?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What's Zod got to do with this thread?

A lot tbh. All I need for the people that is trying to deny Zod being on Superman's level to STOP, so that I can move to my next point.

Originally posted by carver9
A lot tbh. All I need for the people that is trying to deny Zod being on Superman's level to STOP, so that I can move to my next point.
What's your point exactly?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What's your point exactly?

Lol... once I see Dark is on the same page, I will say my point. I'm tired of going back and forth with him. If I post my point, all it's going to do is lead to him denying Superman and Zod are equals.

Originally posted by carver9
Hes not on Superman usual level though. Superman usual level was getting laughed at by Zod...

https://i.ibb.co/5XHyby1Y/ueELJRv.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/V50Q2JD/GvVtjlY.jpg

The usual Superman was trying to drop Zod and failed and then got treated like fodder afterwards. We cant ignore this since fights matter.

But it counts as a good showing for Zod.

It's not a great showing for Superman.

Think of it this way: WW Vs Batman is a bad showing for WW, but a great showing for Batman. We know it's a bad showing for WW, because she has amazing space cheese feats.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... once I see Dark is on the same page, I will say my point. I'm tired of going back and forth with him. If I post my point, all it's going to do is lead to him denying Superman and Zod are equals.
What's Zod got to do with the thread?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But it counts as a good showing for Zod.

It's not a great showing for Superman.

Think of it this way: WW Vs Batman is a bad showing for WW, but a great showing for Batman. We know it's a bad showing for WW, because she has amazing space cheese feats.

Zod has minimal showings, and this showing aligns with most of his showings. Remember, per Dark, if the person doesnt have as many showings, everything we see is valid. Batman and Wonder Woman has enough showing for us to know their average. Zod doesn't. The showing stands.

Originally posted by carver9
Zod has minimal showings, and this showing aligns with most of his showings. Remember, per Dark, if the person doesnt have as many showings, everything we see is valid.

Yup.

But it doesn't align with Superman's showings< his 'space cheese' feats, as Carver says. It's valid for showing how Zod stands with a 'generic' Superman. But is Superman at Full Capacity, fighting at nanosecond, shattering planets, HVing moons or whatever level?

It's like Ben Grimm doing well against Hulk. Does that mean Ben Grimm has Hulk's highest showings? Of course not, Hulk at Full Capacity would smoke him.

We see this in Hulk's current storyline, with Lycana, or any of the random monsters he fights every week. Are they suddenly WBH or even WWH level, just because they fought Hulk? No. But we know they're powerful because they're fighting Hulk.

But if Hulk went ALL out, they'd get smoked. Hulk wouldn't even have to kill (remember, as per WWH he never kills).

Edit: just read your edit. Sure, we can use one of WWs rogues. Is Giganta as fast as WW? Can she pull suns like WW can? The Shattered God feat - can Giganta do the same?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yup.

But it doesn't align with Superman's showings< his 'space cheese' feats, as Carver says. It's valid for showing how Zod stands with a 'generic' Superman. But is Superman at Full Capacity, fighting at nanosecond, shattering planets, HVing moons or whatever level?

It's like Ben Grimm doing well against Hulk. Does that mean Ben Grimm has Hulk's highest showings? Of course not, Hulk at Full Capacity would smoke him.

We see this in Hulk's current storyline, with Lycana, or any of the random monsters he fights every week. Are they suddenly WBH or even WWH level, just because they fought Hulk? No. But we know they're powerful because they're fighting Hulk.

But if Hulk went ALL out, they'd get smoked. Hulk wouldn't even have to kill (remember, as per WWH he never kills).

Zod treating Superman like fodder only proves that Zod can replicate Superman fts. That's all that does. Heck, Zod has done better against Superman foes than Superman has.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Grim and Hulk. It's been said on panel on multiple of occasions that Hulk holds back against him. He sat there and let Ben punch him in the face just like Zod did to Superman. Let's not forget that Ben also has upper tier showings like toppling Galactus and doing better against Champion than any other earth hero. Yes, im mentioning that just like you mentioned Flash fight against Anti Monitor as a usable ft.

At the end of the day, the small showings Zod have puts him above a standard Superman. An all out Superman, they are probably equals.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Edit: just read your edit. Sure, we can use one of WWs rogues. Is Giganta as fast as WW? Can she pull suns like WW can? The Shattered God feat - can Giganta do the same?

Wonder Woman holds back against Giganta. We've seen Diana treat her like fodder when she wanted to. If i saw Giganta just standing there tanking WW punches while WW is screaming out "fall damn you" and is making pain noises every time he punches Zod. How TF am I supposed to ignore this?

Originally posted by carver9
Zod has minimal showings, and this showing aligns with most of his showings. Remember, per Dark, if the person doesnt have as many showings, everything we see is valid. Batman and Wonder Woman has enough showing for us to know their average. Zod doesn't. The showing stands.
What's Zod got to do with this thread?

Originally posted by carver9
Zod treating Superman like fodder only proves that Zod can replicate Superman fts. That's all that does. Heck, Zod has done better against Superman foes than Superman has.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Grim and Hulk. It's been said on panel on multiple of occasions that Hulk holds back against him. He sat there and let Ben punch him in the face just like Zod did to Superman. Let's not forget that Ben also has upper tier showings like toppling Galactus and doing better against Champion than any other earth hero. Yes, im mentioning that just like you mentioned Flash fight against Anti Monitor as a usable ft.

At the end of the day, the small showings Zod have puts him above a standard Superman. An all out Superman, they are probably equals.
What's Zod got to do with this thread?

Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman holds back against Giganta. We've seen Diana treat her like fodder when she wanted to. If i saw Giganta just standing there tanking WW punches while WW is screaming out "fall damn you" and is making pain noises every time he punches Zod. How TF am I supposed to ignore this?
What's Giganta got to do with this thread?