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https://i.ibb.co/wrrqNfT7/BC.webp


Vs


https://i.ibb.co/XZ5Lzr6P/BW.jpg

Canary cry allowed, gadgets for Widow? Or pure h2h?

quickdraw? /shrug

No holds barred, anything goes

Widow shoots her

she'd just dodge it, plus the canary cry

Originally posted by Senor Cage
she'd just dodge it, plus the canary cry

Doubtful. Widow is accurate enought to impress even Bullseye, the gold standard of marksmen:

https://imgur.com/a/bw-snipes-bullseyes-playing-card-qP88eFX

Or sniping Hawkeye's bowstring https://imgur.com/a/ucBKPBF

Unless Canary is a full-on bullet-timer these days, Widow should win via sniping skills if they start from a fair distance apart.

Now, if they started in closer proximity to one another, then it's basically a quickdraw - either Widow shoots/explodes/zaps her with her gadgets or Black Canary screams her head off... so 50/50 toss up.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Doubtful. Widow is accurate enought to impress even Bullseye, the gold standard of marksmen:

https://imgur.com/a/bw-snipes-bullseyes-playing-card-qP88eFX

In a featureless environment and not that far away, I think canary can be quicker.

Canary isn't faster.

It'll be whos quicker in widow drawing the weapon, aiming successfully or canary just screaming. I'll take Canary 6/10

I wouldn't

https://imgur.io/a/lSi8XFO

But if Canary has faster reflex feats, I'll change my mind

Canary has to take a deep breath before she can scream. Standard distance of 0.5km heavily favours Widow here.

She's known for being above peak human, tagging the likes of Wonder Woman. I'm sure she'll be fine.

Widow is also superhuman. We can compare reaction feats, if you've got one.

Going toe to toe with Shiva, who dismantled the God Damn Batman in one move

Both are super human, bro. Not really going to make a big difference, just like my opinion on the whole Daredevil/Batman fight.

Bro, thats not a reaction feat.

The question is whether Widow can shoot faster than Canary can scream. You said Canary was faster, so...


No Bias Claims
"Batman can beat Thor because he's cooler!" That's an example of how not to debate. We would like to see the rationale behind any claims that one character can beat the other rather than a claim based on popularity and subjective bias.
Also, we insist that all claims be backed up by evidence from canon sources. If you claim that Spiderman is stronger than Superman, then you have to prove it.

She's dodged fire arms and speedsters before so yeah. She's skilled enough to evade her firepower until she can blast her with the scream

Originally posted by Senor Cage
She's dodged fire arms and speedsters before so yeah. She's skilled enough to evade her firepower until she can blast her with the scream

Who was shooting, and who are these speedsters?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who was shooting, and who are these speedsters?

Randos but she was easily dodging Eclipso's attacks, Deathstroke's attacks, etc... If she can blast Slade before he could do anything, Widow won't be doing anything.

Who has Widow just shot and killed on Canary's level?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who was shooting, and who are these speedsters?

Randos but she was easily dodging Eclipso's attacks, Deathstroke's attacks, etc... If she can blast Slade before he could do anything, Widow won't be doing anything.

Who has Widow just shot and killed on Canary's level?

Canary Cry ftw.
There's simply no answer for it here.

widow.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Randos but she was easily dodging Eclipso's attacks, Deathstroke's attacks, etc... If she can blast Slade before he could do anything, Widow won't be doing anything.

Who has Widow just shot and killed on Canary's level?

In Identity Crisis, Slade did this to her:
https://i.postimg.cc/RJrkfcXP/RCO008-1468933733.jpg

Too much PIS?

When she had help from the Birds of Prey, Slade did this to her:
https://i.postimg.cc/JG8wz5y0/RCO012-1469021174.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/pyzbv6L3/RCO014-1469021174.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/T5rZcpsT/RCO015-1469021174.jpg

When she fought him in Deathstroke Inc, he had her by the neck:
https://i.postimg.cc/t1wwQ3QX/RCO006-1663820918.jpg

When she had help from Ollie, he had a sword in her mouth, until the JLA came to save them:
https://i.postimg.cc/z3nM6Hdr/RCO007-1461961675.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/H84hyFJx/RCO010-1461961675.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gLP7rG2Q/RCO017-1461961675.jpg

From the scans, pain stops the Canary Cry (as per Dinah's narration when he breaks her arm). Who says she has to kill? She has poisons (which take out Dr Nemesis), she has her Widow's Bite (which took out Hawkeye), explosives (whcih destroys Sentinels) etc.

Show the other scans in the Deathstroke Inc. battle. She dodged him while he was going to ambush her. Pretty good feat, seeing as Slade is physically superior to Black Widow. She wasn't even trying to use her scream either. Once she did, he messed him up royally.

Canary cry ftw

I didn't because Slade wasn't there to fight her...

She still dodged some of his attacks and we seen how powerful the cry can be, even at half power. It messed him up. Widow would be no different.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
She still dodged some of his attacks and we seen how powerful the cry can be, even at half power. It messed him up. Widow would be no different.

Again, because he wasn't there to fight her, but to recruit her. So her dodging his attacks doesn't mean anything:
https://i.postimg.cc/Gt2nGbJR/Recruit.png

And as for dodging Eclipso 'easily':
https://i.postimg.cc/D0MkcRBX/RCO017-1663820918.jpg

It was all an illusion. She didn't dodge anything. And it doesn't show how powerful her cry is at all, but the opposite:

https://i.postimg.cc/kg93vNyw/RCO016-1663820918.jpg

Point blank, full strength cry - it didn't even KO him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Again, because he wasn't there to fight her, but to recruit her. So her dodging his attacks doesn't mean anything:
https://i.postimg.cc/Gt2nGbJR/Recruit.png

And as for dodging Eclipso 'easily':
https://i.postimg.cc/D0MkcRBX/RCO017-1663820918.jpg

It was all an illusion. She didn't dodge anything. And it doesn't show how powerful her cry is at all, but the opposite:

https://i.postimg.cc/kg93vNyw/RCO016-1663820918.jpg

Point blank, full strength cry - it didn't even KO him.

In all fairness, her not knocking out DS has nothing to do with this fight. Either:

1. She has much greater feats, such as blasting through thick steel doors and exceeding 300 dB, or


2. Characters don't share feats. DS gets that feat, not Black Canary.

In my opinion, BC stomps this fight with a simple scream. Outside of that, she's a street-leveler. If she were that easy to shoot, she wouldn't be considered one.

I wasnt talking about that eclipso incident, the feat that happened in the 80s. She's dodged, bullets, energy attacks, etc... and, yes, Slade wasn't trying to kill her but hurt her. She did dodge his attacks. Widow got ***** slapped against winter soldier. Canary too skilled , imo

Slade was trying to recruit her to work with him. He wasn't trying to hurt her at all.

Skill doesn't mean anything if she gets shot from 500m away. Which Widow can easily do.

With regards to Bucky, she has been brainwashed to hold back against the Winter Soldier:
https://i.imgur.com/liFmRv7.jpeg

Some idea of her explosives:
https://imgur.com/a/bw-gear-feats-ca-638-L1Uv4nB

A tiny minor charge is powerful enough to destroy a giant mech which had bulletproof windows. Another of her explosives is powerful enough to destroy a Sentinel:
https://imgur.com/FSIM0Sv

Her darts against Deathlok:
https://imgur.com/a/bw-poison-darts-fDLE8vJ

And poison gas:
https://imgur.com/tZcu08j

As soon as Canary takes a deep breath to scream, she inhales instant KO gas. Or large AoE explosives. At this distance, I wouldn't give Canary 1/10 against, say, Batman with his gear, regardless of skill. If you wanted it to be h2h, then that's different, but this is anything goes, as you said.

Widow isn't that fast to do anything substantial, especially with the skill level or canary. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Canary cry ftw

She's fast enough to make Taskmaster - who had both Bullseye and Hawkeyes skills - miss. She's fast enough to react to sniper bullets AFTER they're fired by Punisher (who alone is fast enough to move with lightning).

And she has MASSIVE AoE capabilites on top of that (so doesn't even need to aim, though she is good enough to do so if needed - remember, her aims good enough that even Bullseye couldn't see her, she was so far away).

Canary's best bet is to get close (impossible over 500m) and use the cry. At long distances, her cry isn't that impressive, unless you have feats that aren't in her respect thread lol.

But not fast enough to beat Bullseye or winter Soldier. She's not that fast, imo. Super soldier fast but we've recently seen Canary fight someone more skilled than either of these 3.

Widow would beat Shiva too

Widow couldn't even beat Bullseye

Originally posted by Senor Cage
But not fast enough to beat Bullseye or winter Soldier. She's not that fast, imo. Super soldier fast but we've recently seen Canary fight someone more skilled than either of these 3.

In a ring, in h2h, sure.

Shiva didn't have any explosives or guns or Widow Bites with her, though. And this fight starts with contestants 500m apart, where Canary's cry is significantly weaker, whilst guns etc are....not.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Widow couldn't even beat Bullseye Swap Bullseye and Shiva into this thread and he'd demolish her

I don't put Bullseye in Batman's/Shiva's level. And BC isn't that far off, IMO

Canary didn't outskill Shiva, though? It was her damage soak that carried her through, especially in the earlier rounds when Shiva was dominating her. Shiva literally had her on the floor, humiliated, and was gloating in the background and wanted her to say the words 'I surrender':
https://i.postimg.cc/HVny4ppR/RCO015-1746588145.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WhyJ5Qz3/RCO017-1746588145.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/kDfSbVdW/RCO018-w-1746588145.jpg

Also, to note, Canary was actually down for more than a 10 count:
https://i.postimg.cc/nL5v2Q9k/RCO021-1746588145.jpg

Under any other rules, hell, even under forum rules, Canary lost that fight. We shouldn't act as if its so out there that Widow - who has more damage soak feats than Canary - wouldn't do the same.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I don't put Bullseye in Batman's/Shiva's level. And BC isn't that far off, IMO Bullseye has a number of excellent skill feats. But you're trying to use him to lowball Widow, which isn't how the forum works. You can't inflate BC by proximity to Shiva while trying to lowball BC by way of Bullseye.

Widow's fights against Elektra and Taskmaster show her skills and stats. Plus her speed feats are simply better than BC's, and she has the weapons and accuracy advantages.

Also the comparison doesn't make sense anyways. Give Bullseye a gun and 500 meters and Shiva would die.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Canary didn't outskill Shiva, though? It was her damage soak that carried her through, especially in the earlier rounds when Shiva was dominating her. Shiva literally had her on the floor, humiliated, and was gloating in the background and wanted her to say the words 'I surrender':
https://i.postimg.cc/HVny4ppR/RCO015-1746588145.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WhyJ5Qz3/RCO017-1746588145.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/kDfSbVdW/RCO018-w-1746588145.jpg

Also, to note, Canary was actually down for more than a 10 count:
https://i.postimg.cc/nL5v2Q9k/RCO021-1746588145.jpg

Under any other rules, hell, even under forum rules, Canary lost that fight. We shouldn't act as if its so out there that Widow - who has more damage soak feats than Canary - wouldn't do the same.

She lasted better than Batman, currently. Batman couldn't even get a hit off.

Originally posted by Smurph
Bullseye has a number of excellent skill feats. But you're trying to use him to lowball Widow, which isn't how the forum works. You can't inflate BC by proximity to Shiva while trying to lowball BC by way of Bullseye.

Widow's fights against Elektra and Taskmaster show her skills and stats. Plus her speed feats are simply better than BC's, and she has the weapons and accuracy advantages.

Also the comparison doesn't make sense anyways. Give Bullseye a gun and 500 meters and Shiva would die.

Bullseye is solid, but not the most skilled. Characters like Shiva, Batman, and now Canary are just a tad bit above him. I'd rank Cassandra above him too.

Widow stalemated Elektra while gravely injured. Swap Shiva in for BC and Widow still wins.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Bullseye is solid, but not the most skilled. Characters like Shiva, Batman, and now Canary are just a tad bit above him. I'd rank Cassandra above him too.
Not a real comparison though. Like Smurph pointed out, the marksmanship also makes it quite different from your Shiva example

Originally posted by Senor Cage
She lasted better than Batman, currently. Batman couldn't even get a hit off.

Yet Batman literally one shot Canary, so..... comparisons are flawed.

Here Widow has her long-range weapons, whilst Canary's is significantly weakened.

Canary just had a good reaction showing against Inque/Barda attack. I don't see widow simply shooting her before she can dodge. Does Widow have any feats or shooting someone as skilled before they can dodge?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Not a real comparison though. Like Smurph pointed out, the marksmanship also makes it quite different from your Shiva example

Canary cry has stopped projectiles In the past, so I doubt that will work.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Canary cry has stopped projectiles In the past, so I doubt that will work.
The point is your Shiva example makes no sense here. Canary didn't fight Shiva when Shiva was shooting her with bullets or something.
They fought in a close range combat

I'm saying if it gets to hth. I don't put widow or even Bullseye in the same ballpark as Shiva or canary.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yet Batman literally one shot Canary, so..... comparisons are flawed.

Here Widow has her long-range weapons, whilst Canary's is significantly weakened.



Don't fight Tom King's hierarchy, Saint

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Canary just had a good reaction showing against Inque/Barda attack. I don't see widow simply shooting her before she can dodge. Does Widow have any feats or shooting someone as skilled before they can dodge?

Yet another 'feat' that you mention, while omitting tons of context. Barda was clearly being controlled by Inque, we usually discount those as we have no idea how fast they are moving at. What IS interesting, is how powerful her 'big' sonic attack is:

https://i.postimg.cc/fTw8G05K/15.jpg

A window gets blown out. And she's at MUCH closer range than 500m. This is what the wall looked like BEFORE the 'big sonic':

https://i.postimg.cc/xdXRYwkj/Before.png

As for skilled opponents before they can dodge:
Captain America:
https://imgur.com/a/bw-diamondback-vs-cap-Gkq54

Spiderman (explicitly when he has his Spidey Sense):
https://imgur.com/a/bw-puts-down-spidey-with-one-punch-after-testing-spider-sense-Aa5EW

Elektra (who has better bullet timing feats than Canary, explicitly using her sais to bat a bullet away):
https://imgur.com/a/elektra-vs-black-widow-ILfPJ

Widow had just undergone major surgery btw

Against Bucky, withh an upgraded arm, at much closer range:
https://imgur.com/a/vs-bucky-with-fancy-arm-6HBNA6q

Against Bucky, who screams for Hawkeye to help him and says she will kill him if Hawkeye doesn't help:
https://imgur.com/a/black-widow-beats-on-bucky-hawkeye-l2DpSxT

Against Crossbones, who dodges her Widow's Bite:
https://imgur.com/a/bw-vs-crossbones-B6mxb

So yeah, plenty of times. And at much closer range, whereas this thread has them at 500m. Still zero scans of her Canary cry being any use at long distances.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Don't fight Tom King's hierarchy, Saint

As always, writer interviews don't count

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I'm saying if it gets to hth. I don't put widow or even Bullseye in the same ballpark as Shiva or canary.

It won't get to h2h. Widow is able to snipe things without even seeing them, as crazy as that sounds. She doesn't even need to see Canary to shoot her.

I did say Barda/Inque feat. Meaning Inque was in control, Symbiote style. Still a good feat.

Most of those people were able to dodge and block her. Not really impressed.

I know Interviews don't count, but Canary had a big push, fighting Shiva for several rounds and not getting killed. Batman couldn't even last one round with her, without having gear.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Canary didn't outskill Shiva, though? It was her damage soak that carried her through, especially in the earlier rounds when Shiva was dominating her. Shiva literally had her on the floor, humiliated, and was gloating in the background and wanted her to say the words 'I surrender': I agree it's not a fight to the death. It's also not a fancy fight of skill. Both of which Lady Shiva would probably win. Vandal Savage's subplot of fixing the match aside, it was a brawl with the specific stipulation of forcing the other to give up.

And if you want to seize upon which one of them was closest to losing this stipulated fight, it was actually Lady Shiva in issue #4 at the end of Round 4:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/9441dbe4-fda2-44df-95c9-14a9019d6cbc.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/04b0d244-1a84-4769-afdc-2614dc3145f2.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/5d219d9c-1b39-4385-8dca-4a7d38e1ada4.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/f0c723ff-4e4e-4d21-a510-a596f204786b.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/e7cd0480-ff7a-428c-83e4-49b02073ab84.jpg

Black Canary crying on the floor with her wig torn off was not crying because of what Lady Shiva was doing. It was her internal struggle with her mother's legacy. It's not even subtext. It's blatantly half the comic that's interwoven between all the fight scenes.

I'd argue Black Canary won the fight twiceover. By stopping Lady Shiva from surrendering at the end of Round 4. Then knocking Lady Shiva unconscious in Round 6 before Dinah unilaterally declared her own surrender to consummate the matchfixing.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I did say Barda/Inque feat. Meaning Inque was in control, Symbiote style. Still a good feat.

Most of those people were able to dodge and block her. Not really impressed.

I know Interviews don't count, but Canary had a big push, fighting Shiva for several rounds and not getting killed. Batman couldn't even last one round with her, without having gear.

But here, Widow HAS gear. Those people are fast enough to block projectiles, but not fast enough to block Widow. And again, her fighting Shiva for several rounds isn't really as impressive when we see Shiva literally letting her live just so she can say the words 'I surrender'.

https://i.ibb.co/G4PqdHgd/IMG-3805.png
https://i.ibb.co/4w83RPyb/IMG-3804.png

Bucky compared to BW in skill:

https://i.postimg.cc/LscxZc73/08.jpg

I have think that it would be a good fight at first glance. Canary would likely knock a bit of stuffing out of Natasha, but she nearly has Punisher Mevel damage soak. I think in H2H only, that it could go either way, but when you add the he gadgets Natasha gains an unfair advantage.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But here, Widow HAS gear. Those people are fast enough to block projectiles, but not fast enough to block Widow. And again, her fighting Shiva for several rounds isn't really as impressive when we see Shiva literally letting her live just so she can say the words 'I surrender'. Black Widow would not be dealing with small bullet-like projectiles though. Natasha would be dealing cone-wide AoE canary screams.

I haven't read this thread closely but was there an intimation that Dinah could not unleash a canary cry without taking a huge breathful of air? TBH, makes sense given what limited appearance I've read.

But that begs the question: has she ever let loose smaller canary cries that don't require such deep breaths? If not...

... are Dinah's bullet aim-dodging feats so limited that she couldn't dodge Black Widow's pistols/armwrist stings without having any chance to take that deep breath?

Which, mind you, I'm not saying Black Widow isn't agile enough to dodge (especially if she's keeping Dinah off-balance/off-target with her own barrage of bullets). But it just seems the so-called long-distance advantage isn't as clear-cut as it's been posited...

... which would narrow this further into close-quarters H2H. Which is the more interesting conversation for me.