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During the conversation between Neo & the Architect:

The Architect - "The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."

In the second to last sentence, look for the 1 main key word that gives it away "PSYCHE"

I know i posted this already in the "For those that have seen The Matrix 2" thread. But for those who didn't get to it here it is.

If the Oracle is in fact the Mother of the Matrix, why does the Architect scoff and say "please..." when Neo suggests it? Not that I completely disagree with your claim that she may be the Mother, but why does teh Architect seem so against that thought? Any ideas?

go to hell

That hardly makes sense. Why waste your time to type that if you don't care?

He might have scoffed because he is envious of her as she came up with a solution that he could not. He obviously holds himself in a very high regard, almost incapable of error yet he could not add the the matrix what the mother (possibly oracle) had.

That's NOT actually proof... it's still just opinion from info the film has given us.

Scoffing at the name?

Seraph: I protect that which matters most

Oracle (ETM): Who and what I am beneath remains the same (I know this isnt concrete but it backs up what Seraph says).

Still - after so many times watching it, I still think everytime that when he say's "Please", it's as if "Ha, you call her that...as if thats her real name" - you know what I mean?

Now if we take the fact that the Architect said "Psyche" AND "Intuitive", then take what the Merovingian said "The fortune teller" and all of which is said above, it is logical (maybe not correct) to come to the conclusion that the Oracle is in fact the Mother of the Matrix. A Fortune Teller is intuitive (they know what is going to happen) and they also investigate the Human Psyche (they have to - part of their job). The facts point towards her unless by some big twist it turns out to be Persephone (who in fact, in the teaser from the cinema, she is dressed in Black & Red Leather with bright Red lipstick on........sexy ***** :P)

I agree 100 percent. Honestly I do not believe the W Bros would make it that easy anyway.

How hard can it be, there are only 2 female programs that we know of. So it is one or the other (or someone we haven't even seen - which is very unlikely) - all evidence thus far leads to it being the Oracle.

well it hardly necessitates the 15 exclamation points this thread title contains. however . . . even though it's not proof, it is logic. because we know of no better alternative. so i accept it, for now. then again, the w. bros seem apt to throw wrenches wherever they please. the mother might as well be the woman in the red dress, for all we know.

Yes, I agree that it is mostl likely to be the Oracle but it was still not proof! Proof would be someone actively saying she was the Oracle in the film, or the Brothers letting it slip, or something.

can any1 tell me if the oracle's appearance changes in matrix revolutions because in ener the matrix game her appearance has because she chose to help Neo and his buddies and the Merovingian warned her she would pay for it. and she said "he is a man of his word" and she looks different in the game.

Yes, mostly likely different in Revolutions

I heard that the real reason why they have a different character is because the original Oracle died, but I don't know if that goes along with the storyline that the W. Bros intended, so I don't know.

bigbadbike2 I see you are a Nicky Hayden fan...

The beauty of the MATRIX so far, is that 'MOTHER' could be either of the two ladies suggested... and still be plausible; Just as Zion may still be in the matrix... or it may be the real world. My bet is that Persephone is the mother. Lets go back to the statement from the Architect that was used to support the claim that the ORACLE is the mother, from the original thread

"....Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother...."

this stands out: CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE HUMAN PSYCHE

I also site this statement as support for my theory. Who is Persephone if not a very SENSUAL being?! (I have to agree with you, Sifer) And I believe she is a program - a lesser program, as described by the Architect - that specialized in human emotions. which indeed is a aspect of human psyche that is VERY different from the supreme logic of the Architech. And what more powerful emotion than LOVE?!! That is what was missing from the Architects first attempts at the matrix. That is what makes the 'world go round'. The Oracle is wise and mystical - but be honest, she no lover. And she would admit this herself - she always has 'bad news' for Neo. No. The Architect discovered through Persephone's INTUITION that an emotional attachment would be the trick to keep 99% of the human race inline. That is why I believe she wanted a Kiss. The Merovingian used to be like Neo, she said. But like many powerful men with raging hormones (think about a certain politician) - can lose TRUE LOVE and go for the latest fling (the blonde cake-baited floozy). Face it - she is used not only by Merovingian, but by the Architect and the Matrix itself, and was never reciprocated. Thus the kiss - to SAMPLE the product of her existence. The real deal. No. She is not so much the 'MOTHER' as she is the 'Wet Nurse' that gave birth to the secret of humanity (Love), only to watch the end results amounting to no more than CAUSALITY.

I think that the mother is most likely Persephone because she even said herself that she is an emotional vampire and when she let hte keymaker out mervingian didn't do anything which leads me to believe that she is very powerful, more than Mero, if someone as powerful as Mero let's her do anything she wants it says alot about her character.

I post some pretty stupid threads from time to time. BUt this my friend takes the cake. Winner of stupidest post of the year!

u mean the cookie...

no cookies are for good posts. this one gets the blue pill.

i think he means
cookies - good post
blue pill - great post

ok..

oh well

I think the oracle is definately the mother of the matrix. Sifer is right I also think the way architect meant "please" was like "call her that if you wish but she is no oracle".

read the trinity mother thread.. and ull see why i disagree.(i also disagree with trin being mommy, but thats explained there)

Everyone is missing one subtle, but important point. The mother is the Oracle. First, I must assume that Neo, having this conversation with the Architect, fully understands and knows what the Architect is saying (although most of us have had to read the transcript and see the movie like 3x to finally 'get it'). If you follow the conversation, Neo basically affirms his understanding of what the Architect is saying all throughout the conversation. My point here is this: if Neo is fully understanding - not necessarily agreeing with - the Architect, which we can presume he does (see below), then he must also be right about the Oracle.

1st statement: Architect explains what Neo is and Neo responds by saying you haven't answered my question. Architect is surprised both his response AND the speed with which Neo responds - this basically PROVES to the Architect and to us that Neo understands what the hell the Architect is saying. 2nd statement: Architect tells Neo there was more than one Matrix and that there were more Ones before him. Neo responds by saying "Either no one told me or no one knew". Architect agrees with his conclusion. 3rd statement: Architect talks about anomoly of the Matrix and Neo affirms his understanding by saying it's about choice. Again, Architect expounds on the problem of choice. 4th statement: Architect talks about ppl who reject the Matrix creating an escalating prob. of disaster and Neo immediately understands that this is about Zion. The Architect agrees and expounds on it some more. 5th statement: Architect talks about attachment to humans in a specific way (love) and Neo understands that he is referring to Trinity. Architect, again, agrees and explains.

If we presume that Neo knows what the Architect is saying, then Neo is right about all of his conclusions throughout this entire conversation, including his referring to the intuitive program as the Oracle! After all, Neo was one of the smartest hackers in the Matrix. You'd think he'd be able to make logical grasps of new information. The Architect's 'please...' only shows his disdain for the humans' mideval reference to an individual who is nothing more than a program. any other explanation is streteching...

i think he's saying please in that tone meaning... shes no oracle shes just a program that knows what happens on the path of the one... please...

Maybe his tone was to what he called her, maybe he thought it funny that everyone regarded her as a prophet, an oracle.... maybe her true name was Cindy or something, you never know

yohji> i love the way you can say that Neo was correct every other time, thus he was correct about the Oracle being the Mother, with such conviction, but, alas, it is incorrect...Everytime Neo is right, the Architect AGREES with him...also, if the Oracle's not called 'the Oracle', then WHAT is her NAME?!?! The Architect is saying please to say, 'that menial program? how could you DARE put me and her in the same sentence...? As i was saying..." I can see how one MIGHT think the Architect was saying Neo was right, based on 'please', however, when he says 'as i was saying...' it pretty much clenches it for me...she's not the mother.

the next best choice to "The Mother" would be persephone, for she gives people choices as well. In Reloaded, she gives 3 examples of these.
1- "If u want the keymaker, follow me."

Theres a choice that they were not willing to pass up.
2- "If I dont show u to the keymaker, she kill me. All i want is a kiss."

Once again, another choice where there was actually no other choice. They needed the keymaker.
3- "You can either run to the resteraunt and tell my husband wut i have done or u can just stay there and die."

With that, she also knew that he was in the ladies room. I rest my case. Any questions?

okay jedi and for anyone else that still refuses to accept that the Oracle is the Mother, let's consider the facts about the Mother: 1) The Mother was INITIALLY created to investigate aspects of the human psyche and 2) The Mother is an INTUITIVE program, one less bound by the parameters of perfection.

Fact #1 tells us a couple of things: a) this program had a purpose and scope to study the human mind and b) this program no longer functions in its original capacity to study humans (the word 'initially' is a giveaway). Now, if a program was created to study the human psyche, then it could, by extrapolation and interpretation, predict how individuals and groups of individuals would react to specific situations. So, we could assume that this program could, in essence, predict the future based on human thought and action patterns. Hmm... which person in the movies do we see predict the future with 100% accuracy? Recall the other predictions: to Morpheus - you will find the One; to Trinity - you will fall in love with the One. Even if a program could read the Matrix code, it wouldn't be able to tell the future because humans can make any choice they want - thus the systemic anamoly in the Matrix that the Architect didn't account for in building the 1st Matrix. Only a program that knows and understands humans can make predictions that will likely come true. How did the Oracle predict that Morpheus would find Neo if she didn't understand Morph's unshakable faith, stubborness and persistence? And how did she predict that Trinity would fall in love with Neo if she didn't know Trinity's wants, desires, hopes, dreams, etc. to a t. And this is all even before she met or even know who Neo was! Pretty damn unbelievable for a just a regular program if you ask me.

Additionally, assuming this program were an expert in human psychology, then it would, by virtue of its expertise, not be tied down by the weakness of human emotions - in other words, it wouldn't be a slave to emotions because it would be able to control them perfectly (kinda like how a pshychiatrist/psychologist dissociates themselves from their patients' situations and emotions). No one else in the movies displays an ability to control their emotions as well as the Oracle - she's the best poker player in the movies. This also disproves the highly publicized theory that Persephone is the Mother. Persephone is shown to be nothing but a petty program completely RULED by her emotions. She displays suspiciousness/jealousy when the Mero leaves for the bathroom, knowing full well he's about to get some action. She 'gets even' at the Mero for cheating on her by helping Neo and company. She displays anger at the Mero by calling him a pompous ass or prick. She requests a kiss from Neo to help satisfy her cravings for lost love and sensuality.

Still not a believer?

The fact that this Mother program no longer functions in its original capacity (as explained by the Architect's use of the word 'initially' when describing it) fully explains why the Oracle is on the run from something and has 'many enemies' (i.e. Agents). Fact #2 tells us that this Mother program does not think like a computer and is not bound by a program's inherent logic limitations. This then makes it possible for the program to operate outside the rules of its own programming and therefore, have the ability to work in a capacity other than what it was programmed for. Recall what she says to Neo: 'some programs, when faced with deletion, choose exile'. She is, ironically, telling Neo that she is one of these programs, but poor Neo thinks she's talking generically (it's kinda like how, in Sixth Sense, the little boy was telling Bruce Willis that ghosts don't even know they're dead and poor Bruce doesn't realize that he's one of them). This is the reason why the Oracle is on the run from the Agents. Recall the freeway chase scene in M2, the Agents were after the Keymaker (the 'exile'), not Trin or Morpheus.

Though you non-believers might say or think otherwise, all roads lead to the Oracle.

WOW...thats a long explanation...and a long contradiction...you Say the program INITIALLY studied the psyche, THEN point to a program that DOES study the psyche...also, the fact the the Oracle does not show her emotions proves nothing, because we know she HAS them, otherwise, she wouldn't have told Neo more than she shoulda. You disproof of Persephone being the mother actually reinforces the idea that she is MORE, because, assuming that she and Mero are from the original Matrix, and the Mero has changed (which we know to be fact based on Persephone's statement (he used to be different...)), thus we can assume that Persephone has changed as well, from what she was INITIALLY designed to do, to what she DOES....all roads do not lead to the Oracle, unless you can rethink your logic and provide me with better proofs. My statement stands, the Oracle is not the Mother.

Both your posts are too long... however - I agree with Jedi, cuz Yoda is on his avatar.

jedi, it's your logic (or maybe your reading skillz) that's flawed, not mine. i never wrote that the oracle CURRENTLY studies the human psyche - she simlpy uses her previously gained expertise in human psychology and emotion to anticipate humans' reactions to situations and basically predict the future. she doesn't study the human psyche any more - she just utilizes it to her advantage. thus, the disctinction b/w INITAL and CURRENT.

secondly, your counter on persephone is weak. how can you explain her petty actions and outburts of emotion by saying that she changed from the original matrix- i mean, after all, she's the supposed expert on human emotion, right? so, why is she acting like a petty little girl? can't the program that was created to investigate the human psyche keep her own emotions in check or has it been so long since she studied the psyche that she slipped up? (yeah, that makes sense...) it's time to face the facts, persephone is NOT the mother.

actuallyyyyyyyyy humans are flawed in that same way that they CANT keep them in check.. she studies them long enough she takes traits like them.. shes learning about it form humans so why wouldnt she respond in the same way.. oh and if u want more details about persephone check out the trinity mother thread i provide plenty on persephone.. im not saying it is the oracel or it is persephone cause bottom line is we dont know.. but i and others.. jedi have provided good reasoning it very well could be so dont say no your wrong.. just keep trying to find new and better points to make

Y'Know... I'd have to agree with "Matrix 4 ever".

the oracle tells the future because it is her purpose.. its her part in the control.. meaning shes meant to do it.. so how would she stumble upon the sollution and she doesnt give them choice at all.... put that in your blunt and smoke it!

forum... you're forgetting one thing. Persephone is a program inside the Matrix and therefore, has a purpose inside it. (According to the Oracle, 'we're all here to do what we're all here to do'; according to the Keymaker, 'We do only what we're meant to do'.) Therefore, if her purpose was to STUDY humans, she wouldn't change her internal programming to ACT like humans do, esp. not in such a raw emotional way, because her programming would prevent it.

then why would a program choose excile over deletion.. when they are MEANT to be deleted...

she is rogue now anyway.. she doesnt follow the pattern

forum, i guess it's the oracle's purpose, too, to run away from whatever she's running away from, right? also her purpose to 'hire' a martial arts bodyguard to protect her, right? cuz after all, she's just a control.

okay, enough with my sarcasm. yes, the Oracle WAS part of the control and she intially came up with the prophecy to guide the humans to find the One so that he could enter the prime code and reload the matrix all over again (forever and ever)... but not anymore (not sure when). i'm assuming that after having gained understanding of the human psyche, and after studying and manipulating it for so long, she now knows like the councilor does that humans and machines need one another in the long run. she is interested in preserving the future and as a result has gone rogue to help the humans in their battle against the machines. she's a 'believer' that Neo can really save Zion and humanity because of his choices. my other theory on Neo is in one of the other boards and describes how he is able to do what he does which makes the Oracle, a believer.

a program chooses exile b/c programs are self-preserving in nature. until they have fulfilled their purpose, they would choose to be exiled rather than be deleted (i.e. killed).

additionally, programs in the matrix don't have an expiration code built into them and therfore, were not MEANT to be deleted. when they are written, they don't know that newer programs may come to replace them. they simply do what they're programmed to do. if they had a deletion code built-in and knew to be deleted, you wouldn't need agents to track and 'delete' rogue progams, now would you? the architect or whomever was controlling the matrix could simply have them commit suicide since it would be part of their programming.

The programs that were created in the ORIGINAL matrix were CHANGED when they went into the SECOND matrix...this is evident in Mero, all his Minions, so why WOULDN'T it hold true with Persephone...?

The Oracle has a Purpose, it is to create the ONE, to lead the One to the Source, it is to ENSURE THE LONGEVITY OF THE MATRIX...HOWEVER, the Oracle tells Neo, "You've made a believer out of me". what does that have to do with it? it means that the Oracle knows the path Neo will choose, and his belief, his conviction, has proven to her he can pull it off...i didnt used to believe this, but i do. Also, Persephone is an Emotional vampire, meaning she leeches emotions off of Humans, so wouldn't it make sense that that emotion would change part of her coding as well? what else would be the point, now that she is rogue?

each program has a purpose, both before and AFTER they go rogue...the Oracle, Mero, Persephone, Keymaker, Smith, etc, ALL are still there BECAUSE THEY STILL HAVE A JOB TO DO!!! they do not CHOOSE to stay in the matrix, they are made to believe they do, when the simple truth is, they have no choice in the matter.

Oh, she didn't HIRE Seraph to guard her, it is his purpose, for she is the future, until Neo goes to the Architect...NOW, his purpose is to protect the future, which is NEO...thus, he leaves the oracle and goes with TRIN and Morph to get NEO...

go jedi go jedi

jedi, your post basically affirmed what i wrote previously. anyways, i have a slightly different theory about seraph that coincides with my premise that the oracle was the Mother and that she has now since gone rogue to help the humans regain control. he is nothing more than her (the Oracle's) whipping boy and so, does her bidding in helping the humans, whether it's with finding Neo or any other matter.

No, the Seraph specifically said "i protect that which matters most", which is the survival of both races, thus, the future. He doesn't work for the Oracle, he protects her, because he is programmed to...

and please explain how my post affirms what you say, when your post contradicts itself.

yea seraph most definanlty protects the future, otherwise he wouldnt of left the oracle alone to go with morp and triny leaving her vulnerable to smith.. they only needed neo at that point

Jedi

I think your mostly correct, one thing I don't agree with is your thought that the Oracle has gone rouge and believes in the human resistance. Especially if your theory is that they are programmed to have no choice in the matter of what they do. (ie. They believe that they've gone rouge but they still have a job to do)

This is problematic because the Oracle would have to be rouge for each version of the matrix for one.

Secondly, the Oracle is designed as an intuitive program, to collect data about the human psyche, with a secondary purpose which is to propagate the path of the one. Meaning that without the Oracle there would be no one, but the anomaly would still exists which would wreck havoc on the matrix. So, if she has no choice but to do as she is programmed, there is no reason for her to believe that she has gone rouge - thus there is no reason for her to be rouge. According to your post.

Thirdly, as you posted:

the Oracle tells Neo, "You've made a believer out of me". what does that have to do with it?

Remembering that the Oracle is just an intuitive program that was designed to understand humans in such a way that we cannot even imagine, and she is supposed to propagate the path of the one, you have to remember that you cannot take what she says at face value. As Morpheus said "Try not to think of it in terms of right and wrong." and then later "She told you exactly what you needed to hear." The oracle does not necessarily believe anything, but, through a deep understanding of how the human mind works, knows what to say, when to say it, and how to say the things that someone would need to hear to lead them where she wants them.

Remember what she said:
Oracle: "And don't worry about the vase"
Neo: "What vase.."
Oracle: "That vase."
Neo: "I'm.."
Oracle: "I said don't worry about it. What will really bake your noodle later on is would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

That last line sums up her entire roll for all three movies. She tells Neo, and others, what they need to hear to lead them to the places they need to be in order to set certain events on course. She told Morpheus that he would find the one, well why didn't she tell Niobe? Because Niobe's character isn't a fanatic or obsessive. She wouldn't have set a crusade to find the one. She told Neo that he was not the one, that he was "waiting for another life or something. I don't know." but that they'd be lost without Morpheus. This set him on the path to save Morpheus, and led him, inevitably to his death at the hands of Smith, after which, he realized that his self inside the matrix had no bearing on him and that his thought processes fire faster than the actual computer system - creating the one.

But the Oracle would also have to be the mother of the matrix for the very reason's that I just stated that I believe you're wrong about. As an intuitive program, she understood that, if given a choice, most people would blindly accept the programming of the matrix, but if they were not they would reject the programming because human nature leads us to follow blindly the easy choice, and to rebel if we are not given a choice.

It's the same principle of how politics and con-men work. If you were given two choices, you were then told that the first one was the right one, and that you could look it up for yourself if you wanted - 99 times out of 100 you wouldn't. You would trust it because you've been taught to believe what you are told if someone can provide evidence. The fact that the suggest evidence, in this case, suffices.

but architect refused that ORACLE is the mother of the matrix

Its the most plausible reason i have heard for the 'Mother of the Matrix' stunt since the film was released.

Jedi, can you clarify your statement on Seraph? You said:

"No, the Seraph specifically said "i protect that which matters most", which is the survival of both races, thus, the future. He doesn't work for the Oracle, he protects her, because he is programmed to..."

So, you say that Seraph protects that which matters most (i'm not including your interpretation of the Future here) and then you go on to say that he was programmed to protect the Oracle. With those two premises, the only conclusion I can draw is that he protects the Oracle because she matters most. But I know this isn't what you meant...

What I'm more interested in is how you account for Seraph's absence in M1 when the Oracle is clearly NOT in hiding and living life somewhat leisurely in her apt (baking cookies and all and entertaining guests). If he was so interested in protecting the Future, why wasn't he present when Neo first met the Oracle? Why is it that the exact moment when he states that 'he protects that which matters most' also coincides with when he opens the back door and we immediately see the Oracle. Hmmm....

If, as you and some others say, Seraph was programmed to protect the Future (i.e. survival of both races), can you pls explain why the Architect would make a program like Seraph to deliberately subvert the entire system of control? I mean, what self preserving species (human and machines included) would create a program that is supposed to threaten the maker's very existence and facilitate its ultimate demise? Maybe the Architect slipped... umm, not likely.

I believe Seraph to be nothing more than a tool used by the Oracle. If you go along with the presumption that the Oracle is the Mother (a theory I know you don't subscribe to), then she would clearly be able to 'create' such a program. This program would be intended to protect her and her agendas since she has now gone rogue and believes that Neo is the salvation of both humans and manchines. The modern day Jesus (see my previous theory on the Neo forum).

no that is what he meant yohji.. the oracle did matter most at one point to the future.. because smith had grown so powerfull.. and now she is not the key to the future neo is... if he was her "whipping boy" she would of had him stay with her cause she knew smith was comming.. but she knows the future matters more, the future of both worlds not her existence... seraphy doesnt deliberately subvert the entire system of control.. he is a contegincy plan.. if the oracle died neo wouldnt of reached the source.. if smith is left unchecked both worls will be ruined.. seraph is saving the machines and humans.. he protects the future

we're basically saying the same thing, except in different ways. as i mentioned previously, i believe seraph was 'created' to protect the Oracle and her ideas/agendas which, right now, are to ensure the survival of the humans and machines. i just place less empahsis on his role than you guys seem to do...

thank you forumcrew, nicely put.

meta> no, not necessarily. the Oracle did not have to go rogue in each iteration, because the anomaly was not the one to break the cycle. thus, "you've made a believer out of me", or, you've made me believe you are the ONE...Every other Anomaly has failed in this aspect.

exactly if you guys havnt noticed.. me and jedi can go on and on and on we wont give up!

we're stubborn that way...

and now a word from our sponser

......banana island is bliss.....

Originally posted by CrazyShady
During the conversation between Neo & the Architect:
B] Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."
Thankyou! Goodness!...http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/notworthy.gif

verity> Whats your point?!?! we know which Architect...what is the point of your post?!?!?!

there is no point.. that is the point.. think about it they have no more arguements against us jedi!

forumcrew and jedi> so, you still haven't explained why or who they (oracle and seraph) are on the run from... if seraph is nothing more than a contigency plan CREATED by the architect to ensure that the One reaches the path, they would have nothing to fear within the Matrix. His purpose would override virtually any other program's purpose inside the Matrix, including those of the Agents. Why then, are they running or hiding?

And another question you still haven't answered is if he was a 'backup' plan, where was he during M1? Shouldn't he have been present there as well? If I recall, the Oracle in M1 only had a preistess type of figure. Pls clarify...

The Agents are not controlled by Archie in that, if they find (oracle or Seraph) he is gonna tell them not to kill them. the Agents believe it is their purpose, whatever, to kill the anomaly and any rebels or rogue programs they encounter...like i have said before, i dont think that the Archie directly controls anything that happens in the matrix, he is almost impotent, just watching, not doing anything...and Seraph wasn't needed in M1 because the Anomaly had not created the anti-anomaly (smith)

i still disagree on the importance of seraph - he's not a contingency, merely a puppet of the Oracle (but you've heard this b4). nevertheless, you do bring up an interesting discussion point jedi.

i agree that all programs within the matrix do what they're programmed to do. after all, this is part of the 'perfect precision' that the Architect was talking about. i'm wondering now though what the Architect would do in a sitaution where both the Oracle and the One were threatened to die by the Agents' hands. Would the Architect stop it from happening knowing full well that the Matrix wouldn't be reloaded? another noodle...

ok seraph is an angel write or wrong if he is "angels look over us to make sure were ok"write wrong he is the eyes of the oracle because she has all those enemys and hes looking over here thus the architect wouldnt lie to the one there is no purpose and he would say either precisly or incorrect write or wrong so i just want to now what yall think

Yohji> well, i actually dont think the Oracle has been around for ever, but im beginning to be changed in that point of view...and the Oracle would never be threatened to die until after the One reaches the Source...it is not her purpose to die until after the ONE chooses to end the cycle...

TH3 0N3>wow...only one thing i can say to that...PUNC-TU-A-TION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is the way I took it: when he says "pleease", he was replying to when neo said "the oracle", he was saying like please, she's no oracle, but he was still saying that she was the mother.

The Oracle is part of the anomaly's path to the source. She gives him the information and things. I think that's what she's created for. The program that is the "mother" of the Matrix was created before the first anomaly, so she'd be created before the Oracle. Though I may be incorrect.

I was merely agreeing w Crazy!...R u bothered?...I don't understand u!

jedi> i don't get it: if the Oracle is never threatened to die before the One reaches the source, why is she on the run when she meets Neo in Reloaded? And no, its not just Agent Smith that she's running from... Recall what Seraph said, "The Oracle has many ENEMIES..."

the more i think about who the mother actually is, the more convinced i become that it must be the Oracle. given all we know about the Mother (intuituve program less bound by parameters of perfection, initially created to study human psyche), who fits this profile the best?
Who else in the movies has the most intimate knowledge of ALL the main human rebels and is still a machine? who else is able to predict (or manipulate into self-fulfillment) the future so far? who else displays an uncanny sense of human wisdom despite being a program? who else speaks with emotional detachment (i.e. not ruled by her emotions like Persephone - a critical prerequisite and characteristic of a program created to study the human psyche, like i mentioned in my psychiatrist's analogy), yet still remains 'mother-like' (guiding her 'children' - the rebels, baking cookies, giving candy, calling Neo 'kid', etc.).

one other point that most ppl seem to forget is the fact that the Architect refers to himself as the Father of the Matrix becuase he BUILT it. However, it failed (twice! in fact) before the MOTHER came along with the solution. The implication here is that whomever the Mother is, she is absolutely CRITICAL to the functioning of the Matrix. Without the Oracle, the One would NEVER reach the source, thus the Matrix would never be reloaded and the control would eventually fail. Moreover, the Mother's solution to the problem was to give humans choice. The only character in the movies that provides 'choice' to the humans (in the world shaping events kinda way) is the Oracle (in M1, she tells Neo he must choose to save Morpheus or himself, and in M2 she tells Neo that he must choose to understand his future decision or else Zion will fall). Finally, consider this: who are the only characters in the movies who do NOT have names, but are referenced only by their function and capacity...? the only ones that come to mind are ALL critical to the Matrix... Architect/Oracle/Keymaker = Father/Mother/???

just because the one cannot reach the source without the oracle NOW doesn't mean she was imperative to the CREATION of the better matrix...

The Oracle was probably created to lead the One to the Source.

But if you take what your saying you have to take what the Oracle says as the absolute. The truth. Yet she has not ever been completely honest and even Morpheous said "She told you exactly what you needed to hear." Meaning, she's not trying to tell the truth and help you that way, but rather - she's telling you what you need to hear to lead you down the path. Now to do that, she has to help you down the path to find the truth, then you believe what she says and you follow everything else that she says.

Everything that she says should be interpreted, not literally, but as words that are needed to be heard to lead you down the path she wants you to follow.

She is also the only intuitive program we have met, and the Architects disdain when Neo says she's the oracle is only because of the title Neo uses "Oracle." The Architects response is more like "Please! She no more capable of prophecy than you. Her design was to read the chemical precursors leading up to the choice you are about to make and this leads her to know the means in which best to speak to you."

But as JediHDM said, her name is The Oracle. There's no other thing to call her. And also, The Oracle never lies. She always tell the truth. She never told Neo that he wasn't the One.

she only tells you what you need to hear

Ok, but as JediHDM said, her name is The Oracle, so there's no reason for him to act like she's not an Oracle. That's her program name, just like the Keymaker is the Keymaker's program name.

Oracle= MOTM. 'Nuff said.

could it be a possibility that the oracle and persephone are working together, to divulge deeper into the human phyce?, for instance, why does persephone kiss everyone if not to get some of their code, to help make a better, more perfected matrix, she then feeds the infromation, or code to the oracle, who anylizes it and gives it to the architect who then works together with the oracle and they make a perfect matrix.

OR CONSIDER THE ALTERNITIVE....

The oracle programmed everyone inside the matrix, the "human beings" are in fact programs, the oracle programmed them all, so she knows exactly how they are going to act, and what they are going to think, arego, she knows hom the world is going to act and therefore can predict the future, which is why when neo calls her an "oracle" the architect laughs, because she is not "fortune teller" only a program that hacks other programs.

Uh.....yeah. Persephone and the Oracle.. The Oracle is an intuitive program for analyzing certain aspects of the human psyche -- Persephone is an "emotional vamire" who was...well we don't know what she is designed for -- or really much of anything about her at this point. It seems very unlikely..

Where does Peresophone kiss anyone but Neo? And if that were the case, wouldn't a simple kiss do? And how would she be getting any of the code? Plus, there was a perfect version of the matrix -- it was rejected because the need for choice. Also, because, as humans, we define happiness through pain - without the misery there would be nothing to celebrate! It is human nature to question things, just as it is human nature to conform, and to choose the simplest answers (though, Occam's razor states that the simplest answer is usually the right answer). Neo, however, was a portion of the small percentage that questions authority by nature. At a subconsious level, he was given a choice to believe the matrix or not, and he chose not to. So, all his life, he felt something was wrong with the world but did not know what it was. Because that is something that is inheritly human, it cannot be worked around to create a "perfect" matrix.



IF the Oracle programmed everyone inside the matrix, and they are infact programs, please explain why there would be a need for the matrix in the first place? Then, why would they need to fight each other in such manners, with some believing that they are human? And, most importantly, how would they "wake up" from the matrix into the real world? Also, if the Oracle programmed everything, she programmed the Architect, who stated that HE programmed the matrix. The Oracle wouldn't exist without a matrix though, b/c there would be no need for her. And, as the programmer, she would not need to hack anything!

Persephone kisses Niobe/Ghost.

Unknown

Not in Reloaded she didn't. And I haven't seen a trailer that shows her kissing anyone else for Revo...

*hint hint* Enter the Matrix *hint hint* (meta)

Mike

I've stated numorous times that I know absolutely nothing about Enter the Matrix!! I've not had the time to open the box, let alone play it... **looks across room at Enter the Matrix looking so goldenly pure** *Sigh*

I'm just telling you why he said it!

I know I know....