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I've thought about this for a long time. And I always wished they would have gone into detail about the prophecy in TPM or at least throw a little bit of information our way. It seems as though the to bring balance there would have to be an uprise of some dark forces, the jedi were basically ruling the Galaxy, they were in their prime. For a true balance to occur the jedi would need to take a bit of a fall and the dark forces would need to rise. This is a great insight Ratcat.

I like this Jedi!

Indeed, how can you have balance when the power of good and evil are so disproportionate?

I am not sos ure good and evil should be in balance. I think Lucas is clearly moving towards balance in the sense that where there is evil, there is unbalance. When evil rises it disrupts everything. Somehow the balance must be restored. And I wonder if you HAVE to take a fall to the dark side to balance it.

On a side track, I hated Lucas bringing the "prophecy-thing". SW didn't need that. And I thing Luke does most of the work. He is the first to turn back from using the dark side to obtain victory. Vader follows him out of love for his son. And Luke is a prime example of a righteous Jedi, he does not lie, is honest, straightforward and consciously chooses the light side. Very different from OB1 in many respects.
I'd love the idea if somehow Luke would turn out to be the chosen one. Everyone thinks Anakin's the one, he falls, everyone looses faith and forget about the prophecy. And then Luke comes forward, does te Chosen One-thing, without anyone realising it. Great drama, but it probably won't happen.
So that balance thing will bother us for two more movies, methinks.

queeq out

A while back on theforce.net they had an excerpt from a Japanese interview with GL and he said that the balance is when everything in the Galaxy is fine and at peace, but is unbalanced when something or someone takes away this peace and prosperity. So I think that basically the Sith must be destroyed for the galaxy to be in balance. Anakin does this by destroying himself (Darth Vader) and then the Emperor.
I know this has been mentioned many times, but as GL was the one who said it on the interview I'm guessing it's the official explanation of the Balance.

Exactly DD. Thanks for that piece of info. I read it, but couldn't remember when and how. It's like I said really.

queeq out

But don't the Jedi make for an inbalance be there war or peace. They are more powerful than the average person and ould have no equels if the sith did not exist?

I don't really get what you're trying to say. The Jedi represent goodness and according to Lucas's philosophy evil disturbs the balance (of goodness). They will allow for the balance to be disturbed by being a little self-centred, unfocused on the Force maybe or by lacking in striving for goodness in the Republic. I wonder how Lucas is going to tell us why the Jedi are to be purged or why the SIth defeat them in the way they do.

queeq out

Well, either way, I think we'll get a bit more of the explanation in the Jedi archives sceen...if it happens that is.

I think it will. The purge must be made clear, of why the Dark Side seems stronger. How otherwise will Yoda justify his saying that the Dark Side is NOT stronger.

queeq out

DD is right. If George said it, its canon.

Amen

queeq out

That's not actually true.

If George films it then it's cannon, everything else is subject to change.

Here is an exact quote by Lucas:

"If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balanced these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!"
George Lucas - CUT interview 09/07/99?

Hey yodaman. How are you these days? How studying?

Thanks for the quote and... I see you're back in spoiler mode. What's that all about?

queeq out

Cool Yodaman, I hope this truly carries throught to the film.

I'm not in spoiler mode. I just had that sig from when I first came here and never actually changed it. Good to see you guys.

Interesting theory....but how does yodaman see you guys ? Does he have x-ray vision??

Well no Gundy, then he'd just see the inside of his monitor. He obviously astral projects himself!!!

He has powers you cannot possibly imagine, Gundy. You better behave yourself this time.

queeq out

I find your lack of faith disturbing..

I figured you'd say something like that. How predictable

queeq out

Just going with the flow.

To comment on topic, it would appear we will have to wait to see if this "prophesy" appears in a more concise or well-defined form amongst Jedi/Sith mythology. Not that its going to be chiseled in stone or anything, but surely any balance has to be an even amount of good/bad or light/dark. You know, the old a pound of feathers weighs the same as a pound of gold thing.

Well I think that "point of view" will not work. Lucas' balance does not have to do with balanced amounts of good and bad, like yin and yang. He clearly stated that evil creates unbalance. Goodness IS balance. Even the OT was clear that little things led to the Dark Side and once you start down the dark path (even when there is still good in you like in Vader's case) forever will it dominate your destiny and will it unbalance the Force.

queeq out

Thank you for that insightful post, queeq. But I like unbalance in the force. Makes more exciting plot twists.

That's why we will have six movies. And no prologues and epilogues.

queeq out

My my my...Gunny is an impetuous woman...

and like I said...it has to end sometime..

It ends after Ep3.

queeq out

I don't agree that once you start down the dark path that it will forever dominate your destiny. You say that Vader is forever dominated by the darkside, then why in one of the closing shots of RotJ do we see Anakin(Vader) standing once again with Obiwan and yoda. All people are capable of change. That is what the story tells us. That there is good in everyone and all people can change. If Vader was forever controlled by the darkside then he would never have saved LuKe and destroyed the Emperor. He would have kept following orders and the story would have had a shitty ending. But it didn't, because he broke away from the evil and changed back to the good.

But now you are forgetting one thing. GL says Vader is the chosen one. That is why ONLY Vader could actually turn back. He was special.

queeq out

I think anyone could turn back, even Palpatine.

They only have to WANT to do it, and that's the hard part

I kind of get the impression that turning back would kill him..not that that's such a big deal in the scheme of things..but I was under the impression that the dark side had engulfed him body and soul.

Maybe by the tiome of the OT, but before that he seemed OK.

But Yoda said quite clearly: "Once you start down the dark path, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." He obviously concludes that turning back is impossible.

queeq abides

The only way Vader could turn back is to destroy the emperor(sith master)and by doing so he would bring balance to the force because he destroyed himself as vader which again "freed" Anakins "spirit?". No more bad guys.
By destroying the emperor he also destroyed himself the siths were beaten and that allowed Anakin to return as a jedi.(siths aren`t jedi, they are just trained in the skills and the force as jedis are).
Im just thinking out loud so it might be an unstuctured reply but even so...

I think Anakin regained his Jedi-ness (if we can speak of thatat all) at the moment he decided to throw Palpy down the shaft. Not when Palpy died.

queeq abides

Same outcome though

Yes, but that would have been the same if Luke decided to turn to the Dark Side and would have destroyed the Emperor togehter with Vader. So the outcome's not an argument, it's the heart that matters.

queeq abides

Then Vader and Luke would rule the galaxy with ultimate dark side power. That would have been so cooooooool !!!

It wouldn`t be the same, if luke turned to the dark side and destroyed the emperor with vaders help, then vader would become sith master and luke his apprentice.
This way there would be two siths and no jedis(not counting leia).
What I am saying is that when Luke is on the verge of being destroyed Vader acts as Anakin and saves his son.
Vader had a little Anakin left in him and by acting the way he did, he made sure at least one jedi remained to keep the balance of the force. No more bad guys to upset the balance the prophesy is fulfilled

The prophecy sucks!

queeq abides

Yes the prophesy sucks it gets to much bibelish. Religion sucks as well.

Religion doesn't suck.

queeq abides

Yes religion does suck look at all the conflicts religon causes around the globe.

I'm sorry you feel that way, finti, and you're certainly entitled to your own opinion and beliefs(or lack thereof), but perhaps you could soften your expression a little so as not to offend anyone here. There is a topic under GD about religion that we all discussed in an orderly and polite manner. Maybe you could take a minute to read through it before you post on this thread again. IMOH OC

True Gunny..I think alot of times things are done in the name as of religon when it's more about alterior motives and personal gain..

Wow... I couldn't have said it better. I rest my case.

queeq abides

i was leafing around the internet last night with my roomate, and came across this website. it's wonderful. we found a lot of interesting perspectives on some of our most frequent topics of discussion in relation to SW, and were hoping someone reading this may be able to shed a little light on some queries of our own. first, in reading the discussion of anakin and balancing the force, we recalled that he was prophecised to "BRING balance to the force", not necessarily being the balance itself. this said, is it pheasable that 1)in reproducing one male and one female offspring, and this theme being common amongst nearly all known earthly phylosophies (and GL's overt collaboration with a tremendous amount of them in his SW stories), that their births are in and of themselves, balancing. especially given their innate propencities to the force, via their mc-conceived father. 2)that when luke's suffering at the hands of the emporer in RJ causes vader to kill the emporer and himself, and subsequent "change of heart" propells him back into the good side of the force, that luke has then caused the death of one evil and one good jedi, thus balancing the force by returning peace to the galaxy (concept derived from a GL interview in japan). while there is much more i would like to ask, especially on this particular subject, i don't want to get on your nerves, so i'll sign off. thanx.
[email protected] (i have no idea how you may
intend to answer this, or if
you will for that matter, so
here is my e-mail address.
thanx again)

Sign up Dude and join us.

queeq abides

Ok. First of all, Jake Lloyd continually defended his playing of a "will-be-bad-guy" by saying (clearly prompted by George) that it was ok, because Anakin would bring balance to the Force in ROTJ. So obviously the idea is that the Emperor messed things over, and eliminating him put it back. I doubt if it was meant to be any more complex than that.

Mind you, I've never understood this. It's all vey well Anakin restoring balance to the force, but as Vader he was the one that made it possible to unbalance it in the first place! We can be fairly certain that only Vader was poweful enough to bring around the fall of the Jedi. So all he does in ROTJ is oput right what he made wrong- oh, after the Empire has made the Galaxy an unhappy place and blown up a major planet and wiped out the Guardians of Truth and Justice in the Galaxy.

A better prophecy would have been "Kill the Chosen One before he messes up the Galaxy. Don't bother waiting for him to put it right again! It's simpler this way!"

But back to my original point, Lucas is clearly using balance purely as an idea of good and evil- so things ARE balanced as they stand at the start of Episode I, even if in a LITERAL sense it's unbalanced in favour of the good guys. Unbalance= rise of evil. Anything more complex than that is unncessary.

But things aren't really balanced because you have hidden sith lurking and waiting for a chance to strike..just because everyone was clueless to their existance doesn't mean that they didn't have power. Infact, I'd say that they were very powerful...they'd have to be to able to hide from the jedi for a millinia. And it also shows how the jedi weren't as in tune to the Force as they thought they were. It was like they were in denial about the whole thing in some ways.

And jeffrey I think you have a good point about the need for Anakin's actions in relation to the prophecy..and I don't know why exactly he would have to leave a son AND a daughter (the first thing that popped into my mind was that it sounded like they were supposed to get together *ick!* My mind's always in the gutter ) but I do find it intriguing..

You know, I always saw it as simple as this:

1. A prophecy is made, an even longer time ago.

2. The Sith return, as masterminded by Darth Sidious

3. Anakin, the Chopsen One, is meant to be the one who defeats the Sith and restores the balance. But things mess-up, and he joins them instead.

4. The surviving Jedi, Ben and Yoda, hatch a plan to safeguard Leia and Luke on the idea that perhaps one of them is the chosen one instead, and they had got it wrong before.

5. Luke has to go in earlier than planned, gets beaten by the Emperor, but then Anakin changes back at the last moment, kills the Emperor, and it turns out he WAS the Chosen One after all, but he was a bit late about it.

So in its totallity (overall plot-wise rather than character-wise), it's about the disastrous failure to fulfill a prophecy, followed by a heroic saving of the Prophecy at the last moment (character-wise, it's about a good guy turning bad and then redeeming, of course). But I really think the Balance is a very simple thing.

Am I missing the point here. Surely Balance means , just that, to equals , a equal split , same on both sides etc etc etc. Anakin does bring balance to the force. He kills all the jedi leaving only 2 left (Yoda and obi wan, the obi wan and luke becomes the learner so to speak) So he does bring balance.

'Luke you are going to find that many of the truths we cling to , depend on your point of view'

This is kind of repetitive but Lucas stated himself that by having evil that creates an "unbalanced system" and since Anakin gets rid of the Sith by first turning back to the light side and then killing Palpatine he brings balance because there are no more Sith.

Exactly, JO.

As for Anakin coming in a the Chosen One in ROTJ, well, it's a little stale, but I'm afraid that's what will happen. Luke's the true chosen one for me, however.

queeq abides