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for those of you who have read an earlier post of mine about Arogorn,s use of the ring lost by a wraith .(the argument was lost by me as the rings are held by sauron and not the wraiths) .
the question now springs to my mind (twisted mind) as to where the wraiths get their powers from as the can not be useing the rings for power as they don,t have them?

this is nothing to do with the film,or orlando so i don,t exspect many posts replies because thats all any body posts about zzzzzzz.

yours as always

that is a very good question. I don't know the actual answer to it but i have a possible theory as to where they get their powers. Since Sauron holds the rings they can't be getting their power directly from them. But Sauron most probably holds power over the ringwraiths so their power could actually come from sauron who controls them. Now like i said this is just an idea and is probably not right but maybe you could make a better theory out of my theory.


As to the other thing you said:







I totally agree with you. Talking about the film is totally alright as it is based on the books. But i do think there is too much talk about Orlando bloom. Sure he's a main character and a great actor but the movie is not based on him. There are other actors in the movie as well. We never hear about the actors who play people like Gimli or Eomer, etc...



apple_daisy09

ok ,so the theory that sauron passes the power on to the wraiths is as good as any but one has to ask(i do you know) as to how? or does sauron need all the powers in the rings for himself? to help him rebiuld himself or mearly to hold himself together? it has been a few hundred years since the dark lord was dimminished when he lost the one ring, did he need the power in the wraiths rings to start rebiulding himself??
was that what took him so long? hmmm,
the question moves on does sauron need the power in the rings and are the ring wraiths reduced by thier lack of rings thus allowing arogorn to stand up to them? would he have stood a chance if they had thier rings with them ?

Glorfindel, your opening post kind of confuses me. when you mentioned aragorn using a ring lost by a wraith, where did you hear that? the only ring that i am familiar with that has anything to do with aragorn is the ring of barahir which is ages older then the wraiths rings and has nothing to do with the rings of power. now second thing where does the wraiths get there power from? very good question, i would guess that it is a combo of saurons power through the rings which is the chief source but i am sure that some power was forged into them in the begining by the elves. So i guess i am saying that in the begining they had power of there own, but since sauron had a hand in their creation that power was corrupted to serve him and now he wields the rings power and his own power through them. thats my guess, hows that sound.

Glorfindel posted a question ages back asking why Aragorn did not take the Witch-King's Ring. Most were firmly of the opinion that this was because using one of Sauron's rings was a dreadfully bad idea, but in any case it seems Sauron has the Rings anyway.

But the Ringwraiths are now so bound into the power of the Rings that I believe that, like Sauron himself, they are empowered by the mere existence of their individual Rings, not necessarily needing to possess it.

I agree, I think Sauron gives the wraiths there powers

sorry turin but the wraiths became powerful wizards and kings after the recieved thier rings not before their power is only due to the rings they recieved(i belive).
do you not think it stange that when sauron sent out his genrals to war he did n,t give them thier rings of power to use as this would(may) have given them greater powers in the battle?
or did sauron need the power from the rings to support himself?
turin(great name) my argument went along the lines of if the wraith had a ring on him when he was killed on the battle field then why should arogorn not use it to win the final battle as if he won the ring would loose all power and not corupt him and if he lost he would be dead , but sauron has all the rings gathered to himself, WHY?

i thought that only the witch-king had powers since he is a sorcerer and all. none of the other ringwraiths have any powers, so why would they need there rings. i mean sure the ringwraiths rings did have a power inside of them indeed, but that was for them to become his servants so he could use them as messengers. i believe that the witch-king still holds his ring, since he is the most powerful ringwraith.

sorry white rider but all the wraiths had power each to his own abilities
my answer to my last post is ,is it possible that sauron took the rings from the wraiths (how i don,t know) and holds them so that he can control the wraiths and make them do his will. I don,t mean in any magical manner but as a threat that he would only retun them when he has control of the one ring , at which time he could return the rings to the wraiths and then control them by use of the ring power?
this would explain why the wraiths did n,t wear thier rings on the battle field and were then not as powerful as they would have been if they had wore thier rings. thus evil once again is it,s own undoing?
what do you think???

p.s.
ive just become a directer of a company ( )
p.p.s im going to see fleetwood mac live in manchester ( )

i know this has nothing to do with LOT,s but hey

It's a good theory that the reason Sauron took the rings from the wraiths is so he can control them. Since he does not possess the one ring anymore, the wraiths would be able to use their rings without Sauron being able to control them and use them for doing as he pleases (like hunting down the one ring). So he must have took them back so that the Wraiths, who are probably also now bound to these rings, would be under his control. He may also needed these rings to rebuild his power even if this means it weakening the wraiths.

this idea could probably use more in depth reasons if anyone has anything to add to it.


apple_daisy09

all i know is that ring wraiths can't die, make person/surroundings feel dark and empty when they are done, and can use dark magic stuff. so what else is new? look it up in the appendix of the last lotr book and see if it says anything.

thankx for tellin me that. good theory and stuff

WOW a big debater huh
ring wraiths can die as does the witch king on the battle field, please don,t say that does n,t happen in both book and film,
a better argument would have been if the dark lord would continue to live(?) as long as the one ring does, does that mean that the wraiths would only live while their rings also where whole. if that was the case it would exsplain why the wraiths flying back to mordor past away after the destuction of the dark tower where it is belived that the rings were held and thus destroyed....hmmmm
in which case the witch king would not have been killed at the battle just deminished as happened at the river.... hmmm

you tell me??

The fact is that the Nazgul are one with their rings (or something close). They are empowered by the mere existance of their rings (as said Ushgarak), though to a greater extent than even Sauron. Because Sauron, though empowered by his ring's existance, is too weak to create a body for himself. In fact, he's barely powerful enough to take any physical form at all. Thus he is limited to a lidless eye, wreathed in the flame of his cruelty and malice. But back on subject, the Nazgul need only the existance of their rings to be fully powerful. That's it.

They don't really have "powers" so to speak...They r just beings wondering between life and death! Their strength however, comes from their thirst for power and vengeance I believe! They just sense the Ring when it's put to work because the Ring calls to Sauron....They r completely at his mercy and will! So I wouldn't really say it's power....just evil at it's best!!....

The Witch-King didn't any more die in the ROTJ battle than he did at the Ford. The Ringwraiths cannot be permanently killed whilst their Rings surive, I suspect. They are kinda like the ghosts in Pacman; kill them and their eyes (spirits) go home and get a new body...

Of course, once the One Ring was destroyed, that was the end of THAT.

u forgot that sauron was the one who make the One ring and the nine rings. he transfer his power to them and he control them.
i don't know why u think that the rings are not on the ring wraiths.
but my theory is that once they put on the ring , they would be corrupted by sauron, or his evil power in the ring, much like denethor, and they would listen to him for everything......... also the One ring control the other nine so whoever control it, control those corrupted by them too.......... and the One ring knows it's master who is sauron, and through out the whole story, gandalf and elrond keep reminding us that the ring cannot be comtrolled by anyone except sauron himself...... which would explain why aragorn would not try to use any of the rings...... cause he's wise enough to know that he's not strong enough to fight the corrupting power of the ring.

okay, i just realised i'm off topic.
i think they get their power from the rings.
and they have some " basic power" that comes with changing from human to being a ring wraith, like can't be killed by man, and invisible to naked eyes.
and i like verity's theory, that they get their strength from thirst for more power, and vengeance.

ush, the witch king was permanetly destroyed wasnt he? I dont know of any specific refrence to site, but in my readings i was always under the impression he was gone for good.

Well, finally, yes...he was destroyed....did anyone say otherwise?

ya i think Ush is saying that the witchking was just temporarily "dispatched" and he could return to Baradur and receive another "body" like he did when him and the other wraiths were washed away at the ford. I always thought that he was gone for good hence the line where it says that mariadoc's sword which was from Arnor made some sort of retribution for the destruction of Arnor. Plus the other Wraiths quald and ran. all the soldiers said that the fear was lost in there voices and they were a voice of confusion. If the witch king could return i doubt they would be so distraught.

Turin....ya that's what I thought.....I didn't see anything about the Witch King coming bk! .....Otherwise, what would've been the whole point of everything?!!!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/bangin.gif

couldn't they creat new witch king??????
u know use the ring to corrupt others??????????

as long as sauron had the rings he could "make" new wraiths but it isnt an instant transformation and if the Witchking was perminately destroyed he would need a new one pretty quick.

Yep! A Witch King takes a long time to make...and after Sauron doesn't have the ring, he can't make other Witch Kings. Plus, the destruction of the ring is happening almost simultaneously w what's going on in the field...think of that...Also, the Wraiths came originally from corrupted power hungry men, who were the kings of men bk then...I think Sauron would have to find perfect candidates to fall into his trap once more....and by the end, everyone (almost) feared of living in pending darkness again!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/fear.gif

The Witch-King was only permanently destroyed because the One Ring was destroyed soon after. The fact that the sword was Arnorian was why it could HURT the Witch-King (and because the Witch-King's deatjh was a crucial victory for the good guys, it was a decisive blow of which the extinct Cardolani would have been very ironically satisfied with!)- no normal weapon would have struck the Witch-King down with such a wound (indeed, I believe it dispersed the spirit in one go), but the Dunadan of those times could do nothing to destroy a Nazgul permanently more than Glorfindel could! Or even broken, Narcil would have been able to permanently destroy them with that logic.

No, they cannot be truly destroyed whilst Sauron lives- as says Gandalf:

"The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him."

BTW, can we stop using 'Witch King' as a noun, as if Sauron would make a new one by design? That is a name the chief Nazgul EARNED!

ya thats what i thought

That's who I thought we were referring to...the King who stabbed Frodo in the shoulder...I didn't mean to offend

he got the perfect candidate - denethor ( if he wasn't so damn sad he wanted to kill himself)
don't u think?

ya that would be a good one.

Yeah ...I guess so...But he was toast b4 everything even finished!!!!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/blowup.gif

i dont know, everybody gets something different when they read the books. i trully feel that the witchking (which is true you cant have another witchking but you can have another lord of the nazgul) was destroyed for good. i know people are going to disagree and Ush has provided a good quote to the contrary, but i am going to have to reread anything that pertains to it to change me opinion. it kind of lessens the deeds of eowyn thinking that WK can just return to mordor and be right back into the action. he had quit a bit of time to do so and be back and ready for the battle at the black gate. it just dont sound right, i will do some reading and be back monday with what i find.....

Yes ur right!! Those r the logical reasons of why that wouldn't happen!!...If he didn't die...he would have been in time for the blk gate!!!! http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/no.gif

Would he? Took them a good long time to return after the Ford- weeks if not months.

And Verity? No offence taken- just as Turin said, I was just pointing out that Sauron could not create a new Witch-King, as that was a name given to that particular Nazgul (before anyone knew who he was). He would just make a new Lord of the Nazgul.

but that's the point i want to make, that if one of them is killed, he could always get another to complete the nine.
and who ever he think is strongest would be made the leader.

well the fords are a lot farther away then the peleanor fields, so you would have to try and figure out the speed of the wraiths on foot, which would be tuff, the distance from the peleanor fields to baradur, then some math, a task i am not willing to do . i went home and read that part of the book (the witchkings fall) and i wrote down the quote, came to work and lost it. but basically it says that a shrill cry went up from a spirit that passed away and died, never to be heard from again in that age of the world. now i take that as him being destroyed for good and ush's quote was just refering to if sauron falls they fall, though they can still fall on there own. but then again looking into it died could just refer to the voice of the wraith. like i said before with many things in tolkiens world you can take things literaly or figuratively (kind of like the balrog and wings thing) and it makes for a great variety of interpretations.

If I remember anything from reading the books, some of their power is drawn from the fear they induce upon hapless victims(i.e. the frightened little hobbits in FotR). Also because they themselves are not quite in the material world nor quite in the spirit world, and with Sauron being their only reason for being in that position, he must somehow give them power, but not too much, because you never know what those crazy half-dead dead guys might do.

...So when Sauron is destroyed...don't they disappear too?? Don't the Wraiths also feed on HIS power?? To me, if their voices r never heard of again, it just means that everything that goes along w it goes too!!!

well the way i understand it, there power comes from sauron, so they are dependent upon his survival. there power is not there own it is his. so basically if you kill a wraith you kill the shell, the host, and of course saurons power lives on. that is just the way i always thought it was.

The reason it was never to be heard again, Turin, is that the One Ring was destroyed just after!

well like i said, there are many ways to interpret it. after going back and reading it i see your point. its just that looking at it again i still feel he was destroyed. there is evidence that points either way so you just got to go with your gut.

I haven't read the whole of this post cause I'm knackered. But as to how powerful the Witch King is?

According to Lord of the Rings (this is without reading any other books BUT LOTR), he has leveled cities HIMSELF That should give you an idea how powerful he is :P