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we have yet not seen how young jedi start out with their training (apart from a select image which showed very young children in Jedi Kit) yet how come in both cases, anakin and luke were apparently too old to be trained as Jedi by Yoda and the council, yet Luke learnt the Jedi ways in a much shorter space of time than his father (the chosen one!)and manged to beat his father in the fight at the end of rotj? How long did Luke spend on Dagobah and who was his real master, after all in a NH he was just arsing around with a ball that fired lazers and by esb he had almost learnt how to control the force.
Is it possible that Yoda was only using the age thing because he thouht that both would turn to the darkside.

We can be fairly sure that most Jedi are accepted in infancy; Quo-Gon says that they are detected quickly, after all.

A point- Luke is NOT that well trained; he is extraordinarily talented and has great potential, but by the end of ROTJ he is no more talented than a Padawan, if that.

He beat Vader a. because he unleashed his enormous potential in the form of anger b. his father was in conflict about fighting him and c. Vader was not as good as he was; his injuries had slowed him considerably.

It was also dramatically appropriate...

hi, im new on these message boards, i would just like to point out that i dont think luke beat vader because of him unleashing his potential in the form of anger, because he had to control his anger so that he didnt turn to the dark side:
"fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate....................."
i dont think it was a mistake because GL doesnt make mistakes like that, but i think it was his only option, also because luke was the last hope, obi wan had to make an exception, however it is possible that obi wan had trained luke while he was growing up, but it was cut out of the new hope script because GL didnt expect to be making episode 1 20 years later.

Somehwat the point of that final scene in ROTJ is that Luke did give into his anger when tauned about Leia, giving him power enough to overcome Vader. but he didn;t QUITE take that final step that would have sent him over the edge when he fianlly realised just how much like his Fatjer he was becoming.

It is also the emperors comment to Luke after defeating Vader. The emperors taunt actually brings Luke back, to controll his anger. Together with the fact Ush mentioned in his post.

ok i agree with you that luke did use his anger, but that still doesnt explain why obi wan was able to train luke when he was that old when the jedi concil said ani was too old to be trained and he was far younger than luke was at the time he started his training.

i disagree that Luke is only as trained as a padawan because doesn't ob1 or Yoda say that only a fully trained Jedi can beat Vader and the Emperor and doesn't Vader say to Luke that his skills are complete when he sees his lightsaber?

I also suspect the only way a Jedi can beat a Sith is to turn to anger, look at OB1 against Maul, perhaps Anakin is unable to return to a peaceful state after defeating Palpatine's new apprentice, thus his turning is complete.

Only a fully-trained Jedi can beat the Emperor. It was ANAKIN who beat him, remember.

When Vader says his skills are complete, he is not saying that Luke is a full Jedi. Obi-Wan in TPM has a sabre as well (that he presumably built), but he is not a full Jedi either. Vader means that Luke now knows what he needs to know, but that is a long way from putting these things into practice.

Luke is skilled and talented but, as he is often reminded, he is NOT a Jedi yet.

As it is, he wouldn't have stood the slightest chance against the Emperor if Vader had not switched sides, as is obvious

"The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you're not a Jedi yet."

in the movies that GL is sussposed to make, (7-9) it is said that Luke turns evil so I think that the fight with his father did in fact effect him in some way.

That's not official. Sorry, you've been duped; GL has no such plans.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
We can be fairly sure that most Jedi are accepted in infancy; Quo-Gon says that they are detected quickly, after all.

A point- Luke is NOT that well trained; he is extraordinarily talented and has great potential, but by the end of ROTJ he is no more talented than a Padawan, if that.

He beat Vader a. because he unleashed his enormous potential in the form of anger b. his father was in conflict about fighting him and c. Vader was not as good as he was; his injuries had slowed him considerably.

It was also dramatically appropriate...


He lacks combat experience yes, but the Force is with him far more powerfully than that of a mere Padawn. A Padawan would not have been able to survive the lightning of Palpatine, nor defeat Jabba and his entourage practically single-handedly.

As to Vader, Lucas said in an interview that Vader's injuries not only took his organic limbs, but robbed him of most of his Force potential. As Vader, he possesses roughly 80% of the Emperor's power, (still making him far more powerful than even Yoda) yet had he suffered none of his injuries on Mustafar he would've been twice as powerful as Palpatine.

The suit Vader wears is extremely heavy and all of his limbs are robotic, which accounts for his apparently significant physical strength as well as his complete lack of agility in OT duels.

Luke become a Jedi after defeating Vader. Whether he could have taken the Emperor or not is not the issue; had he done so, he would've likely turned to the darkside as Palpatine would've no doubt played the defenseless old man card again. This is why Luke had to throw his lightsaber away and leave himself open to the Emperor's lightning.

Luke was more than a Padawan. I consider him a Jedi Knight by Return of the Jedi. Yes he did touch the dark side to defeat Vader, but he did take down the galaxies whole criminal underworld by himself

also there will be no 7-9 Star Wars movies. That is SS bs, don't listen to that crap

Originally posted by Darth_Emodas
As to Vader, Lucas said in an interview that Vader's injuries not only took his organic limbs, but robbed him of most of his Force potential. As Vader, he possesses roughly 80% of the Emperor's power, (still making him far more powerful than even Yoda) yet had he suffered none of his injuries on Mustafar he would've been twice as powerful as Palpatine.

The suit Vader wears is extremely heavy and all of his limbs are robotic, which accounts for his apparently significant physical strength as well as his complete lack of agility in OT duels.

This is kinda off topic, but do you know how much more scaryer/evil looking and just basicly a more bad ass character if vader could move around like a nourmal sith/jedi and if he had all his potential back.

Infants in the Republic are found within the 6 months of life, yet I'd think it's better to train older people, even tho they experiance fear and anger, they know what those feelings are, know what they feel like, and ultimately know how to control them better. A child who has never experience fear or anger has it building up, slowly, and if they don't know what that emotion is, how can they surpress it?

Originally posted by darth athieis
in the movies that GL is sussposed to make, (7-9) it is said that Luke turns evil so I think that the fight with his father did in fact effect him in some way.

You've been SuperShadowed by me. Har Har Har.

Luke was just a rather talented Jedi-minuteman.

No formal lectures. Only wise words from two bitter Jedi masters...

You knopw, Emodas, you moight have done better than to respond to a comment made over fpur years ago- that was hardly useful and we have had far more up to date commentary since then.

Regardless- Luke's foce powers were not yet developed and he most certainly WAS still a Padawan. And that Lightning completely buggered him, you might notice.