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ok, correct me if i am wrong but morpheus says this..."when the matrix was first built, there was a man born inside, where he could change things as he saw fit. it was him who freed the first of us..." (read on)

OBVIOUSLY he created the first matrix and OBVIOUSLY, since he created it, he was the first man born inside. (my pc is messed up and if i type too much it messes up so read on)

and OBVIOUSLY he can change things as he sees fit(he has created 6 already)....and OBVIOUSLY he freed the first people because he needed people to create a city where they can be free from the matrix(at least think they are free)....(read on)

That is not correct. Go back and look at The Second Renaissance, Parts 1 & 2. The Architect & the Oracle were the two machines that went to the humans to make peace. The Architect was nto the first one, because the Matrix was made by the Architect and The Oracle. Go back to Reloaded to see what I mean.

now when he entered the source he disseminated the code he carried....now he sits up in
his chair and watched over the programs and never comes out so everyone thinks he has
died. "when he died...the oracle prophesized his return..." the oracle knows he still exists,
its just he isnt the "one" anymore becasue he destroyed his code. she prophesized the
return of "the one" and only he can enter the source. he did, but he screwed up and chose
his way back to the matrix. now i have heard about "the kid" is really the "one" and that
at the end he takes over the architect like smith and watches over the matrix like he did.
even though i would hate to see "the kid" become the "one"(unless they give him a lot of
screen time and i get emotionally attatched to his character like neo) it would make sense
becasue the new "one" would take over the old "one"'s job. now i am not gonna give you
a bunch of bull and tell you i have the script and stuff....i just have a theory and think it
makes sense. reply on your thoughts!!!!

hmmmm....i didnt catch that the architect and the oracle were the machines that tried to
make peace with the humans, but assuming that you are correct(i will find out in a
bit)...just beacuse the architect is a machine doesnt mean that he cant be the one....i mean
look at neo...he is a machine(or an anomaly part of the machines) and he is (so far) the
"one". i thought that the architect would just program himself inside the matrix so he
could change it up close and personal and crap... haha o well....its only theory and with
the wachowski brothers behind it, ya just never know until november.

The One = The Anomaly = Neo = Simple

i agree with sifer

No offense man but the title of your post sounds like the something out of the national enquirer

hahahahaha...o my god!...it actually does now that i look at it..

yes..there was A MN born inside. The architect is a piece of software..not a man. It's as simple as that

listen, this is what you don't understand about morpheus' explanation of the first one . . .

he was wrong. sort of.

the one that morpheus was referring to was actually the fifth one, the man that brought his code into the sixth matrix after his showdown with the architect. get it? what you were overlooking was that morpheus doesn't know there was more than one matrix. so his story isn't true.

urot: where did you hear that the two robots in the u.n. were the architect and the oracle? you're the only person i've ever heard say that.

Urot is right!.....The architect is a machine, a program, not a man.....He created it along side the oracle (but she betrayed him). The architect is seen I believe in his true form in Renaissance II...Go check!

architect----I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind. is he saying that he is human and to make the system work better he needed someone more bound by the parameters of perfection or that he is a machine and unlike humans he cant deal with imperfection. prolly a machine, but just someything interesting.

Prolly a machine that does not like imperfection!.....He mocks the oracle for falling into that, remember? He refers to the "mind" of the program he shared power w, and betrayed him...I suppose he considers the oracle more human for her weakness: intent to guide humans. Recall that the architect and the Merovingian consider her simply..."a fortune teller".

when did he mock the oracle?

and can someone tell me where there's proof that the robot in sec.ren.II was the architect?

When Neo suggests to the architect that the oracle is the mother of the Matrix, the architect goes"Please!".....don't remember?......watch it again and check out how he says it and his face!.....And uhhhh....in R1 at the end, the big machine says "ur flesh is irrelevant...hand over ur flesh...we demand it!", and everything explodes.....THAT is the architect.....the initiating program of all!....Seems pretty clear to me!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/smoke.gif

what makes you think thats the architect? maybe i need to watch it again... but i didn't catch that.

If you look at sec.ren.II you will see that at least two times the architect & oracle came to the humans to make peace. On the third trip they were there to take over the humans. That is when the architect was in a black metal skin and holding the apple. The apple is the conecting peice. The architect was holding a red apple during the peace talks. Then when he was judging mankind, the red alpple was sitting on the desks next to his note pad. That was the part when he demanded that the humans give up their flesh for the Martix. The Oracle was not at his side at that time, because she was preparing the matrix.(that part was implied)

If you noticed in M2 when neo was talking to the Architect. The architect stated that he was the father of the Matrix, and that the Oracle was it mother. It all started with thoses two programs in sec.ren.II. It didnt matter if the humans destroyed the machines bodies, because it was the programs inside that made the difference. The A & O were never really in danger, because there were still in the Machines Mainframe in M1.(that part was implied too.)

(Side note: listen to the part when the machines were doing upgrades on themselves at M1.)

Go back and check it out. Make sure you pay attention to the stroyline.

but what made you think that was the architect? he looked like any other robot in the cartoon. how does the apple have anything to do with that? i'm going to watch the cartoon again...

the robots that came to make peace were tore apart... the architect was not the machine with the apple... i'm not sure what made you think that. there is no evidence to support that...

Sure there is. The Machines that came were embasedors from the machine nation.

As I stated before if you notice the male machine(The architect Physical form at that time.) was holding a red apple right before they were destroyed.

Then When you saw the red apple again it was sitting on the desk next to the Black sentinal type machine who was passing judgement on mankind. If you notice it was the Architect demanding that all the humans give up their flesh. The physical form for the architect at that time was the Black machind sitting behind the desk. He was writing with the laser beam that made a type of bar code. And as stated before the apple was sitting next to the note pad to let you know that both machines/programs, were one in the same.

I hope this is not over your head. But understand that the two first Robots were the architect & oracle affering peace to the humans.

The machine shell dosent matter. It was the programs that were running the show.

Heres an example of what I mean.

Say you just went out and brought windows XP and a new P.C kit.

You would install win-Xp on the new pc kit right?

Right.

So your new pc qwould be runing win-xp.

Now lets just say your pc's hard drive got fried, and had to be replaced.

You would go out and get another hard drive, and then place win-xp on it since that is the OS you were using on your old HD.

The samething happened to the architect & oracle. The first time they went to the humans there phyiscal form was destoyed, but not there programing. They were still safe at M1 calling all the shots.

Now do you get it?

plausible. But the only thing supporting that is what the black machine said, and the apple. And thats all really fantastic, as in farfetched.

but how do you know that was the architect? when neo went to see the architect he was not holding an apple. what the hell does the apple have to do with the architect... and what makes that guy holding the apple the architect? and the architect never called any shots he just built the matrix. your just telling me that its true... please where is the evidence!! and there is no reason to be condescending

Happy didn't mean to sound condescending. That was not my intent.

no prob it just seemed like you were trying to explain the pc thing like i was a 2 year old.... but anyway i still want to know why you think the guy with the apple was the architect....

Urot>>...OK...I understand the storyline perfectly well....the apple ur referring to is simply a symbol that represents the "apple of knowledge". In the special features commentaries, the designer of Ren 1&2 makes reference to that...dunno what the apple had anything to do w what I said really!...
Secondly, I know the Architect and the Oracle were in on it together at the beginning,but the two robot figures were NOT the Oracle and the Architect ...those two robots that went to try to establish some peace w humans and ask for the rights of 01 nation, were simply the ambassadors sent to voice for the machine population!
Thirdly, in M2, the Architect makes reference to having initially entrusted the Oracle w the task of improving his understanding on how the human race works...given his subsequent failures on creating a long lasting Matrix......He used her as an "intuitive" program....which of course led her to feel a certain afinity for humans.....that is why the architect doesn't look highly upon her!....Get me now?http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/no2.gif

you can't just assume that those two robots are the architect and the oracle. in fact, unless they state otherwise, we should assume that they aren't. that's like me assuming tank was gay just because we never saw him have sex with a woman in m1.



no, he never said the oracle was the mother. his one word in reference to the oracle was, "please." you can assume all you want, but you know what our mothers always said about assuming . . .

Well I reread the conversation between Neo and the Architect.

You all may be right. I guess we will see in NOV.

Oh and heres part of that conversation.

man those wachowski bros are smart! i mean instead of saying "the oracle" the architect doesnt say yes or no and says something that keeps us guessing until nov! bravo wachowkis!

urot: far too many side notes. focus, man.

Omega I was just using that example to show that the programing would have survived if they were using the robot bodies as remote controled devices. Kinda like R.C. mini racers. The body could have been destoyed, but the programing survived, because it was being transmitted to the robots shells. So weather it blow itself up or was destoyed by hunams hands the prograning was still safe in zero one.

And after looking at Res II 1 & 2 again it was the female machine holding the apple in her left hand. Then again after the black sentinal machine passed judgement on the hunmans it was holding the apple in the same hand. Now I dont know if the apple just a sign of knowledge, but if it was shown three times the W.brothers were trying to make a point.

Now after rereading the conversation between Neo and The Architect I find their commentary very interesting concerning the topic of the Mother of the matrix.

On one hand The Architect states that that he needed a a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. So the Job of finding the problem was left to the so called Oracle an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche.

One one hand The Architect stated that "If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother." She being the Oracle.

Then Neo says the Oracle.

The Architect says "Please, as I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at an near unconscious level."

Without the Oracle the Matrix failed and the Architect knew that. The Architect didn't want to really give credit to her because he thinks too highly of himself.

Heres an example to back up what I just said.



He thinks he's God and therefore making him perfect in every way. He really dosent want to highlight his failures, but inorder to be factual he stated them. Then he puts the blame of his failure on the humans saying it was due to "a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, due to their grotesqueries of human nature".

Heres one of the possible answers to the question of who the mother of the Matrix is.






I'm focused Man!!

Oh and here is the whole conversation between the Architect and Neo.

EDIT: Darn it No HTML Code Allowed.

Oh well heres the site.

http://www.geocities.com/clark_kent0002/

I just have a gut feeling about this one Omega. I know a gut feeling is not proof, but its what im going with at the moment. In Ren II they really dont give you a timeline so my theory could be possible.

Hey if im wrong no big deal. But if Im right you all must BOW DOWN BEFORE YOUR GOD! LORD UROT!!! MUhahaha!!!!

*** Ok im doing tripping. ***

Omega I guess we will find out the truth in Nov.

Mmmm.....Couldn't that have happened 600 ys. ago?...Morpheus did suggest that they were somewhere in the future...Whether his calculations of how much that time was, could've right or wrong, is not in question....but it could very well have been 600 years...no?http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/renske.gif

both the oracle and persephenoe are both intuitive programs that deal with human psych. i think it is the oracle and the wachowskis are just making us think about other ppl until we see in nov...

Huh??... http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/dontgetit.gif

Has anyone considered that the architect is lying? After all he claims that "she (Trinity) is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it"

That's what I'm sayin'!!! He's a freakin' lier!!!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/kwasny.gif

Look back at Note 3.

but maybe hes not lying and hes just really stupid and doesnt believe that neos able to save trin

That Architect didn't really lie, did he? I mean, Trinity did die, and Neo couldn't prevent it. That he was able to bring Trin back to life is something else, or what?

Yeah but if the Architect is not a lier, perhaps he's incredibly stupid...If he was so sure of how the way things would turn out...how could he not forsee that Neo would resurrect Trinity?...Sure she died!, but they've already resurrected eachother plenty! Shouldn't the Architect already be running for his life?....I like how Neo says "u should hope we never meet again"...so subtly! Either he's bluffing and lying, or just doesn't get he's in for an ass whoopin'!!!!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/boxing.gif http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/crutch.gif

That ass whoopin' Emote is funny Hell!

verity: just because the architect didn't tell neo he had the power to bring back trinity doesn't mean he was lying or an idiot. he knew trinity would die, and he told neo exactly that, and he was dead right. the oracle leaves information out when she talks to neo all the time -- but she's always right, and no one accuses her of being and idiot or lying.

keep in mind that the architect knows far more than neo is grasping right now. i'm sure he's not scared in the least.

Then perhaps ur one of those ppl who believe Neo is NOT the one?, and that this is all going to end badly??...otherwise he wouldn't be sitting so calmly....I would be scared out of my socks if I were in his shoes!!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/fear.gif

i always just thought that he said that trinity was going to die and there was nothing yu could do to stop it so neo would choose the door back to the matrix and try to prove the architect wrong....the architect probably knew that neo was gonna save trinity if he chose the door to the matrix. and also,(probably not though cuz i havent read the architects speech lately) maybe the architect was talking about someone else besides trinity...maybe the mother of the matrix...you just never know! haha

What...to save her from being killed u mean??

no, he was talking about trinity. and whether he was bluffing or not, he was right anyway. but what you're missing is that the architect doesn't WANT neo to choose the door he did.

at least, it would appear he didn't.

So he was bluffing...and lying....http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/glare.gif

no, i didn't say that. i said whether he was bluffing OR NOT, we wouldn't know because, EITHER WAY, trinity DID DIE. so he was telling the truth.

I was talking about his attitude towards NEO!!! I'm not questioning whether he was telling the truth or not about Trinity dying!!!, I was merely saying, that in a way he IS bluffing!! His whole attitude towards the situation is plain to see!! He's acting as if it didn't affect him in the least bit that Neo chose the door to the Matrix, when in fact it has to...or do u believe he doesn't care which door Neo chooses??...I don't think he expected Neo to go thru the Matrix door, and that must have come to some surprise!!! But he did not show it, or TRIED not to!!!! Isn't that a form of lying to oneself, or bluffing??http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/pissed.gif

Originally posted by nickjs21
trinity DID DIE. so he was telling the truth.

but he also said that there was nothing he could do about it...but he did do something about it....now im just confused hahaha

revolution man: but neo didn't stop her from dying, so . . . the architect, again, was right. he did bring her back to life, but that doesn't change the fact that he wasn't able to catch her before she got shot.

verity: but remember, he said something like, "there are certain levels of survival we are willing to accept." not an exact quote, but close enough. so even if neo did choose the "wrong" door in the architect's eyes, the architect already had a contingency plan for it.

no need to get angry.

ah..i c...that makes sense...cuz i was wondering why he gave him a choice at all...

rev man u suc

I haven't read the last few posts, but to the ones on the page before this near the top. The Architect didn't know Trinity would be ressurected by Neo because remember:

They can never see past the choices they don't understand. Not even the Oracle knows if Trinity is going die.

Therefore the Architect definately cannot see him ressurecting her due to the fact that he still doesn't fully understand human emotions and therefore won't know the source of the equation. Know what I mean?

Not to mention that the Architect has never seen what the Anomaly can do after refusing to Reload - noone has

I AM OBSESSED WITH THIS FRIKKIN SERIES!


*sigh*

I had a different thought on the Architect but STILL using the theory of "He's the 1st 'The One'"

What If he was the first, and he entered the Source and HE stayed. After every cycle, he aborbs the power and the knowledge, and he remains. He could be 1-5 all in one.

But it's just a thought im not ignoring the fact that he claims to have help create the matrix.

u r not the only one