Battlezone: Thanos forces (Quan) vs. Asgard forces (Froth)
Thanos sets his sights on Asgard. Thanos has the composite forces of everyone who has been in his service at least temporarily prior to save Loki. This includes the Black Order, the Chitauri, the Outriders, Ronan along with his forces from Gotg, Gamora, and Nebula. Odin has every Asgardian and enemy from the films save Surtur. This includes Thor armed with Mjolnir with access to his unlocked powers from Ragnarok, Hela, Fenris, her fallen warriors resurrected as seen in Thor:Ragnarok, Destroyer armor as well as every Asgardian. Malekith is an ally here against the foreign invader along with all his Dark Elves. Laufey, the Frost Giants, and Loki are also aligned with Odin for the preservation of Asgard against Thanos. The Valkyries are all alive as seen before their deaths in Thor: Ragnarok. No Infinity Stones for anyone and no Stormbreaker either.
Quanchi112 will be representing Thanos and his forces naturally against the legions of Asgard represented by FrothByte. Evidence and persuasion are the tools at play and may the superior debater win.
Haven't done a BZ before, but let's give this a shot.
The way I see it, this battle can be decided in 3 ways:
The first is a siege, with Thanos' troupes using their airships to lay siege to Asgard as they try to conquer it. I'll leave it to Quan to debate for Thanos' side but as for Asgardian defenses, we know they have a force field to protect the heart of Asgard. There are towers with (what seems like) anti-aircraft canons and Asgard have their own flying ships. The dark elves also have their flying ships which can go invisible. Plus, Hela can just go ballistic raising spikes from the ground to demolish Thanos' ships. We know she can grow those things for hundreds of feet.
The 2nd phase is if the siege actually works (which it might not) and armies go head to head. The bulk of Thanos' army is comprised of Chituari and Outriders... whom people like Black Widow, Hawkeye and the Wakandans can go toe to toe with. On the other hand, even an Asgardian farmer is way above a human, which leads me to believe that the average Asgardian soldier is also way above any chitauri and Outrider. That's not even including the dark elves and their technology (black hole grenades) and the frost giants.
The 3rd deciding factor would be the champions of each army. Thanos, Ronan, The Black Order, Thor, Hela, Odin, etc. But I'll leave that discussion for later. Don't want to start this off with a too long post.
He is stronger than the Hulk. He is more like Genghis Khan. He is a force of nature. He has a spiritual wisdom well beyond all the other characters. He is a conqueror of worlds. He does not have a weakness, and that is what makes him so threatening.
Here you see the early establishment of just how fearsome Thanos is even without, he has got one stone here and I do not think he is even using it, McFeely said.
He is not using it, Russo said. This is to show that Thanos, the Genghis Khan of the Marvel Universe, he is unbeatable in 1-on-1 battle. He has conquered thousands of worlds. He is a much more polished fighter than the Hulk, and Thor, and Loki.
^ Clip showing Thanos defeat the Hulk and dismissing Thor casually after both heroes cheapshot him to begin the exchanges.
From the films opening scene he already has the Power Stone, and by the time the opening title plays he obtains the Time Stone as well. But wielding two Infinity Stones does not make him the most powerful villain in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. He already had that distinction before his hunt for the stones because of his strong will.
The creative team from the movie previously elaborated on Thanos strength, revealing that he did not need nor did he even use the Infinity Stones to defeat the Hulk. Instead he handily beat him at his own game, with brute strength, in the films opening scene.
Relevance-Thanos brings a determination unrivaled in the MCU to the goals he sets before himself. He has the experience of conquering countless worlds so Asgard is just another target. He also possesses a spiritual wisdom above everyone else in the MCU. His skills in combat formidability are beyond those of Thor who is arguably Asgards greatest warrior as per the filmmakers. More evidenced by his feats in Infinity War which shows he can parry attacks while fighting multiple foes simultaneously with a wide assortment of different powers and abilities. A few gifs demonstrating his fighting prowess.
^ Clip showing Thanos battle seven opponents by surprise on Titan such as Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Spider-Man, Starlord, Drax, Mantis, and Nebula.
Thanos forces
A) Black Order
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Thanos most devoted and super powered loyalists. Each member brings a different skill set or strength to this formidable group all determined to carry out the agenda of Thanos. Each member here are the stepchildren of Thanos who are fanatical in service from previously conquered planets.
Thanos elite warriors
1a). The Maw
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Referred to as a techno mage on the audio commentary of Infinity War this gif shows the level of control/precision he has over his molecular telekinetic powers.
Relevance-His abilities are quick, precise and extremely effective in combat. He has the experience of conquering worlds under Thanos and the obedience to carry out Thanos agenda without question.
^ Clip showing Cull Obsidian vs. the Hulkbuster armor.
1c). Proxima Midnight
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What makes her different than Obsidian is her agility and elusive combative skills. She has mastered her weapon the spear. She can emit force blasts from her weapon. Able to handle the likes Black Widow and Okoye too highly trained and skilled foes simultaneously just fine.
Relevance-Battle awareness during combat scenarios. She is objective driven. She knew the moment Scarlet Witch was on the field to know Vision was unguarded to deploy Corvus into attack.
^ Clip showing Proxima Midnight get the drop on Scarlet Witch and having the skill to handle Black Widow and Okoye simultaneously.
1d). Corvus Glaive
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Another highly skilled and ruthless combatant who works well with Proxima in battle. His main weapon the Glaive was able to damage Vision whose body consists of vibranium, preventing him from phasing for the duration of the film, and able to block the mind stone blast from an Infinity Stone. One on one he got the better of Captain America so his hand to hand skill and strength are exceptional.
Relevance-His skillset and weaponry is capable of damaging Vibranium so this means any higher end durable foes are fair game.
A fanatical, vengeful Kree warrior who possesses superhuman strength and durability. He effortlessly toyed with Drax in a hand to hand fight to the point of ridiculousness. He is a militarist who used strategy/tactics to attack Xandar.
This is a gif of Drax without injury bouncing off trees crash landing on a planet. (please log in to view the image)
Ronan uses his own war hammer called the cosmi rod. It can create force blasts which is capable of snapping a neck as well as contain the power of the power stone.
Relevance-A highly competent commander who has his own massively powerful ship and forces as well as is extremely formidable/skilled in single combat. Multiple commanders Asgard will have to contend with.
^ Clip showing her reflexes/dexterity/skill in combat.
1g. Nebula
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Nebula is a Luphomoid assassin, an adopted daughter of the intergalactic warlord, Thanos and adopted sister of Gamora.
My father would have Gamora and me battle one another in training. Every time, my sister prevailed. My father would replace a piece of me with machinery, claiming he wanted me to be her equal. But she won. Again, and again, and again, never once refraining.
Relevance-A pilot who is highly skilled and trained in hand to hand combat while also extremely durable with the ability to repair herself after she takes damage.
^ Clip showing her piloting and hand to hand prowess against Gamora. Also shows the depth to which these two care for each other.
1h. Korath the Pursuer
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Since his youth, Korath would be often trained alongside Thanos adopted daughters Nebula and Gamora, becoming one of the most dangerous and feared warriors in the universe.
The Chitauri are a powerful, reptilian warrior race, a hybrid between organic beings and machines. They have a caste like society, with each caste (nearly a different species in itself) fulfilling a different role in Chitauri society. They are controlled by a Mother Ship which never shows on the battlefield, and act as one during war. They have superhuman physical attributes, superior strategy, energy based rifles and flying vehicles, but their main strength is in their great numbers. The Chitauri, unlike their sister species, have no sense of self preservation, as they will attack their opponents regardless of how strong they may be.
Despite the Chitauris cybernetic augmentations, they are not seen to have any superhuman abilities such as enhanced strength, speed, or reflexes. They are seen to be agile and strong enough to climb on buildings and Leviathans with relative ease, but they were not quick nor strong enough to avoid or stand against Asgardians nor skilled Humans. They presumably have superior communication with each other via their Hive Mind, and thus are apt at strategy and coordination. Despite their interconnectedness, they are seen to be able to act independently, intelligent enough to engage in combat, assess various situations, and assist each other.
Relevance-Formidable race that used advanced technology, weaponry, and vehicles that utilized flight to gain the higher ground on enemies. They were able to take on the Avengers and had the upper hand prior to the rest of their allies crossing through the portal to earth. Strength capable of crushing a car just by jumping on them so superhuman just nowhere near the powerhouses of the MCU. A small group of them pinned the Hulk down with their lasers.
2. Outriders-(please log in to view the image)
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The Outriders are characterized by their leathery black and yellow skin. Most of the Outriders have four, clawed arms, although there are some that have been shown to have six. They can adopt both bipedal and quadrupedal postures to walk and run. Their faces lack any visible eyes, and their mouths are equipped with razor sharp teeth. They also have blue blood.
Unlike their sister species, the Outriders are mindless, only following basic commands given by the Black Order, constantly throwing themselves against Wakanda's force field, killing themselves in the process. Some of them opted to circle around the force field to attack the building which housed Vision, but upon the force field finally opening, they changed course and made their way to the battleground. This suggests that Outriders operate solely on their bloodlust. Still, the Outriders do have some semblance of intelligence, as some have been shown to pilot their dropships. They also have a sense of self-preservation, with some attempting to run from Thor when he unleashed his powers on them.
The Outriders do not utilize advanced weaponry. However, they possess greater superhuman physical abilities, making them fearsome adversaries in battle.
Relevance-Extremely vicious and fearless race that overwhelmed Wakanda the most advanced nation on MCU earth along with a part of the Avengers after sacrificing countless deaths to weaken the shield. Strong enough to tear up the Hulkbuster armor.
3. Sakaarans-(please log in to view the image)
The Sakaarans are a close associate race to the Kree, and could often be found integrated into Kree society, such as the military. Korath the Pursuer, a close ally of Ronan the Accuser, was known to command a large platoon of Sakaaran mercenaries.
Relevance-More similar to the Chitauri than the Outriders. Advanced weaponry but mainly used as pilots with their necrocraft than infantry in the coming battle.
In a quick summary a lot of soldiers and resources to deploy on Asgard as deemed necessary. Thanos has the numerical, technological, and resources in spades over what Asgard and its allies included in this thread. That is a huge and undeniable advantage Froth has to overcome. Good luck.
We see a little in the clip size of Thanos personal ship, the Sanctuary II. Then later we see it firing on the Asgardians ship. The sheer size of it as well as the fact it is Thanos own leads any reasonable person to assume it is quite impressive despite the lack of combat screen time we see of it in the film.
2. Q-ships-are massive spaceships used by Thanos and the Black Order. These ring-shaped vessels were stored inside the even larger Sanctuary II, and Thanos deployed them during his invasions of Zen Whoberi and Earth. http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Q-Ship
^ Clip showing Leviathan warships as well as the Chitauri.
5. Dark Aster-The Dark Aster was a three mile wide Kree warship that served as a flagship under Ronan the Accusers command and the base from which to launch his personal vendetta against the Xandarians. Though the vessel had no weapons of its own, it served as a carrier for the Necrocraft, housing hundreds within its rotating wings.
The specialized ships seem far more capable than anything in Asgard which primarily relies on its extremely powerful warriors in wars. We see basically land invasions and warriors clogging battle fields not tactical warfare as seen by Thanos and Ronans forces. This is just another advantage Asgard will have to contend with.
As seen in the clip Ronans smaller Necrocraft dive bomb onto Asgard crippling the structures, soldiers, resistance to cause as much damage as possible before the land invasion commences. We see it employed here on Xander which seems to have more adequate defenses than typically seen in Asgard.
2. Outrider full scale land invasion-release the dropships containing the Outriders after Ronans ships soften their defenses and decimate their land structures and buildings.
In the clip we see the numbers the Outriders bolster as well as their fearlessness. They also have run into and through shields by sacrificing themselves. Make note of Asgard force shield and the relevance of just these physical brutes alone and their ability to breach it against the most advanced nation on the MCU earth Wakanda.
3. Deploy the Leviathans and the Chitauri-these forces come right after the Outriders are deployed flying above head in their aircraft. So now the Asgardians will have to deal with being attacked while on land and from the air.
4. Command post-Hovering above Asgard in space right above Asgard are the big ships and the big heavies. Thanos will be monitoring from Sanctuary II among his Black Order. Ronan along with Gamora, Nebula, etc. in the Dark Aster. They will monitor the battle and intervene as needed. Close enough they can deploy into the fray very quickly.
I briefly covered this in one of my initial posts. The Outriders themselves can weaken a shield let alone the weaponry, ships, and resources Thanos has at his disposal.
Odin himself admits the great losses the Asgardians faced at the hands of the Frost Giants alone.
^ 1:50 ish in Odin admits the cost was great and we can deduce he lost his eye in the Great War against them. The Frost Giants pale in comparison to the forces under Thanos command. So if this was a nail biter what is honestly going to happen when the Genghis Khan of space comes to town.
Ok there is a lot to unpack here. First off you take their fodder soldiers and compare them to super heroes which is a false comparison. It is like comparing Brock lesnar the ufc fighter to a semi pro fighter. Two entirely different levels but you are ignoring their numbers which is what makes them so hard to deal with and their impact as a collective unit.
Hawkeye is no threat to the Chitauri as a whole but he can contend with them in single combat and on a battlefield with elite help on his side. No one is saying a single Chitauri is an elite threat but that through their numbers and technology they pose a huge threat. Hawkeye skill level and weaponry also posed a problem for Loki one of Asgards elite. Hawkeye is by no means a bum.
Cap also showed he can go toe to toe with an amped Loki. Cap is by no means a representative of an average human being just like Loki is not your average Asgardian. So this further shows you are comparing Chitauri to the elites is not a fair comparison.
My point is not that these guys can destroy Loki but that they lose a threat with their skill and tech to pose a threat to one as Asgards elite. So do not act like these characters are pushovers.
The Chitauri seem well above average humans as well. You are comparing them to Avengers. The Chitauri had the Hulk pinned down with their technology and laser fire in a small group. We do not see the average Asgardians in droves pose a threat like the Outriders or the Chitauri against the caliber of opponents they faced off against.
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The Outriders had the advanced nation of Wakanda and most of the Avengers beaten prior to Thor who relied on Stormbreaker providing a second life for them to turn the tide. They were being overwhelmed. Look at how vicious and powerful they are as they decimate the Hulkbuster armor. They pose a threat in great numbers as seen in the gif to elites coupled with the technology of Wakanda.
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Final point is the weaponry and the tactics used by the Chitauri is universally proven of conquering many worlds. We see proof of Gamoras home world in Infinity War. We also see how fearless, vicious, relentless and effective the Outriders are against Wakanda aligned with some of earths most powerful super hero defenders. Imagine the Chitauri and the Outriders on the same battlefield one covering the land and while the others in the air. Truly scary and far more soldiers than anything seen in defense of Asgard with far more vehicles, infantry, resources and ships.
We will leave this part of the heavyweights possibly colliding for later.
Wow... there's a lot of info here. How about we just agree first on which aspect we want to concentrate on so we don't end up with huge amounts of texts.
Which one of these do you want to tackle first:
1. Ships, equipment, war engines
2. Troupes, army, fodder soldiers, etc.
3. Elite fighters of each army
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Last edited by FrothByte on Sep 19th, 2018 at 04:54 PM
Ok, let's start with their war engines first, because there's no use debating foot soldiers and elite champions if Thanos's troupes get blown out of the air.
Here's a clip of the Asgard invasion by the Dark Elves:
1. The Dark elf ships can cloak... and we've seen nothing from Thanos's troupes that prove they can uncover this cloaking ability. The dark elf ships can literally just run amok and destroy Thanos's ships without them ever getting seen.
2. The only way to deactivate Asgard's force field is from the inside. Thanos has no person on the inside, thus they have no way of disabling the shield. They won't be able to get inside that shield.
3. The dark elf harrows (http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wiki...Dark_Elf_Harrow) only seem to need 1 elf to pilot them... which means even if one of them gets taken out that's just 1 dark elf lost. Whereas Thanos is carrying majority of his troupes (specifically the outriders) in spaceships. If those get destroyed then he loses a good chunk of of his forces.
4. Those dark elf harrows were capable of smashing and cutting through Asgardian structures like they were made of styrofoam. They could literally just smash through Thanos's ships and demolish them.
5. Asgard have their own flying ships and anti-aircraft towers/canons that showcase quite a load of firepower
6. Although not shown in that clip, we know that Hela can create spikes from the ground, big and strong enough to impale spaceships. She can literally just stay hidden inside Asgard's force field and go crazy spiking slow moving ships and leviathans.
7. Similarly, Thor can just stay inside Asgard's force field and start calling down lightning on enemy ships. As of Ragnarok, we know he can call down lightning strikes from the sky.
Basically to summarize:
Dark elf ships can cloak, Thanos's troupes have no known way to cope with that.
Asgard can stay hidden inside it's force field, allowing Thor and Hela to safely destroy Thanos's ships from within.
The dark elf and asgardian ships have more displayed firepower and agility compared to Thanos' slow carriers.
Conclusion: Majority of Thanos's forces will get destroyed before they even land on Asgard.
Firstly we can see the camouflaged ships similarly to how the Predator cloaks itself. It is not completely invisible. If they are touched they lose their camouflage. They are not that numerous and have clearly less than seven at best from the looks of this clip. Asgards defenses also clearly struggle with the limited ships deployed against Asgard. This pales in comparison to what the Chitauri in the Avengers number one alone. That is leaving out what we see in Gotg 1 and Infinity War.
That is not the only way Asgards shield can be breached. This is the best way for the Dark Elves to get through due to their lack of ships and resources at the time. It is also a no limits fallacy. We clearly see the shield used to protect Wakanda react in the same manner. It destroys those who come into contact with it but can wear down by repeated contact or force. It was breached by the Outriders alone by their sheer numbers through physical contact alone.
There are not that many Dark Elves compared to Outriders or Chitauri. You do not have access to many Dark Elf ships so it is small scale indeed. It is a covert operation in the Thor sequel since the Dark Elves do not have the forces to stand up to Asgard. Their sole mission is to acquire the Aether. At the films onset the Dark Elves fall to Asgard and even sacrifice their ships and resources for Malekith and the small contingent to survive we see lurking in the shadows in Dark World. The drop ships will have cover fire from the Chitauri and the Necrocraft. If does not take long to deploy them and release the Outriders. The line from the movie sums this up perfectly, We have blood to spare. More importantly you do not.
You are assuming they even make it to Thanos ships. There are not that many of them and Thanos has plenty of ships, Leviathans to destroy them. Heimdall completely destroys one with his sword so this is not a problem. Asgard does not have great defenses outside their elite defenders.
The Leviathans smash through buildings like nothing without taking any damage at all and are much bigger. We see in Spider-Man:Homecoming just how technologically advanced the Chitauri tech was.
Not really. We see only a handful of ships break through their sub par defenses. Heimdalls sword was able to completely destroy one also.
Every single time she creates any projectiles she is in close proximity and fires them. We do not see her well behind a forcefield with her vision obstructed. If you want her able to take on the Chitauri and their Leviathans she will need to come out and play.
Now I agree Thor has the ability to do so but I believe it is out of character. He will e at the forefront of the battle. I can cite multiple examples of him going to Laufey himself out of pride and disobedience. Thor did not reign down lightning on Hela at a safe distance and was fighting the fallen warriors directly and within close distance. This is why Thor is the heart of the warrior. He would consider it cowardice hiding at a safe distance while fellow Asgardians are in harms way.
They can but the camouflage is not invisible to the eye and there are very few of them. To make the point that Thanos the guy who the filmmakers of Infinity War have deemed the space conqueror of countless worlds is somehow unable to deal with a few ships camouflaged visible to the naked eye Asgard dealt with despite a surprise attack is a bit of a stretch. Thanos has a lot more ships, soldiers, vehicles, and laser fire. What makes you think they will slip by all the laser fire or not be seen by anyone with their vision in the field of battle.
Out of character for Thor as he would view it as cowardice and Hela needs to be close to create her projectiles and her vision cannot be obstructed.
Smaller ships definitely are more maneuverable than the bigger ships. I agree but they are comparable to the Necrocraft and the Chitauri flying vehicles. Thanos has more of those in his armada than Asgard and their defenses.
You do not have the horses or the evidence to support that claim. We see just in Ronans invasion alone with far more smaller and faster ships on Xandar from the Nova Corps they could not stop Ronan alone.
^ 31 seconds in the clip you see the numerous Necrocraft spill out of the Dark Aster alone and that Xandar cannot deal with them fighting in tandem with the Gotg and Yondus forces. Asgard is really outgunned, outshipped, outmanned and outclassed across the board.
No it's not completely invisible but it's still incredibly hard to see. The only reason you think it's easy to see is because you're watching a close-up shot from your HD TV. Out in the open sky, especially when moving fast and in combat, those things will be very hard to see. And yes, they do turn visible once they're attacked, but by the time that happens they would have already attacked the larger carrier ships of Thanos' forces.
Asgard struggled because they were taken by surprise. That's not the scenario at play here so false equivalence.
And yes, the Dark elf ships aren't that many, 12 if wiki is to be believed. And though they will eventually get overrun, they'll still take down a couple of carrier ships before they're destroyed. In the end, my troops would have lost a total of 12 dark elves. Your troupes would suffer hundreds if not thousands if even a single carrier ship is destroyed. And that's IF the Chitauri mothership isn't the one that's hit... which would automatically disable all chitauri. The dark elves are not stupid, if they have a chance at a surprise attack they'll attack the largest, most important looking vessel.
As far as feats go, the only way to take down the Asgardian force field is from the inside. If you want to claim it can be done in a different way then you'll need to provide proof.
The Wakandan force field is not the same as the Asgardian force field. For one, Asgardian tech >>> Wakandan tech as shown by how Asgardians are capable of hyperspace teleportation.
The Outriders never fully breached the Wakandan shields. They threw hundreds of their number against it and only a handful of them got through. If that's how they want to do it against Asgard then they'll kill themselves without the Asgardians needing to do anything. Remember, the Asgardian shield completely rebuffed a Dark Elf harrow. If you want to prove that Outriders can power their way through that then you need to prove it.
There's also the fact that because the Outriders tried a brunt attack against the wakandan shields, we know that they have no other way to get through that shield.
There are not that many dark elves, but then I haven't even brought in the frost giants and asgardians into play. Right now the dark elves are just there to take out as many carrier ships as they can, resulting in a loss of thousands for your troupes.
Cover fire from Chitauri and Necrocrafts won't help if they can't see the ships before they attack.
The leviathans are slow as hell and have no projectile weapons to speak of. They'll get shot down by Asgardian canons or skewered by Hela.
This is not true. In the bridge fight she skewered the Sakaarian ship from a distance. Which means she can do so again. And she won't have her vision obscured, she'll be in a window overlooking the battlefield. Did you see how high the Asgardian palace was? The force field is translucent after all.
It's not out of character for Thor because we've never seen Thor in a siege setting before, so you don't know how he'll react. What IS out of character for Thor is for him to act stupid, which is what he'd need to be for him to act like you want. Basing his attitude on the arrogant Thor from the first movie is not applicable at this point considering this is Thor as of Ragnarok, who has demonstrated tactics in battle before. Plus, Thor has had no problems chucking lightning at the chitauri from a distance so this tactic is not out of place for him.
Like I said, by the time they take out the dark elven ships they would have at least lost a few carriers, and then all they can do is rail against the Asgardian force field while Thor and Hela pick them off from within safe walls.
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Last edited by FrothByte on Sep 20th, 2018 at 05:33 AM
Anyway, let's give you something more to think about. Let's talk about your champions:
1. Thanos - as he is without the IG here, Hela can confidently take him down. Nothing he has on his person can take her out and nothing we've seen from him shows that he can take a barrage of Hela's spikes. Heck, Malekith with a few blackhole grenades can probably take out Thanos.
2. Maw - Probably the 2nd most dangerous champion on your team... still no match for a fully powered Ragnarok Thor wielding Mjolnir.
3. Cull Obsidian - One word. Kurse.
4. Ronan - nothing Ronan has done convinces me he's that dangerous. The most he's done is beat up a drunk Drax. Loki on his own can probably match him, but just to be sure we'll put both Loki and Valkyrie on him.
5. Proxima, Corvus, Gamora, Nebula, Korath - all of these are pretty weaksauce. Fenrir alone can solo the whole bunch.
Notice I haven't even used Malekith, Destroyer, Sif, Heimdall, the warriors 3 or even Odin.
Not only are my champions more powerful one on one than yours, they also outnumber them.
I can see them just fine. This is surprise attack and despite their presence catching Asgard off guard they react accordingly and negate the camouflage.
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Heimdall sees it and reacts accordingly. He is not even armed with a gun a blade does the job. In an invasion setting you will not have clear skies like were shown here prior to Heimdall alerting the Asgardian defenses.
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There are not that many ships compared to the biggest army in the universe. Asgards forces pale in comparison.
Asgards defenses were alerted. It still broke through despite only a few ships deployed. This shows you how inadequate Asgards defenses are against just a few ships let alone the biggest army in the known universe.
If 12 is to be believed that is nothing but a drop in the bucket to the Necrocraft under Ronan alone. Smaller, faster more maneuverable ships to boot. Also have the Chitauri and their flying craft who will litter the skies. There will not be a lot of open sky as in the Dark Elven invasion due to lack of Asgardian air support in this scenario.
That one ship was from Avengers one alone we see far more ships on Gamoras home world. It will also be supported by the other major ships and Asgard does not have access to the same kind of weapon Iron Man used in the first Avengers.
What makes you believe these smaller Elven ships can destroy one of the higher end specialized ships?
No, that is a no limits fallacy. That is against the rules and it is comparable to saying the only way we see this character die is having his throat slit therefore it is the only way to kill him. So since their shield was not breached falsely claim it cannot be breached. Dark elves lacked the forces or firepower to do so. I did provide proof of the Outriders breaching a shield by continual contact. Common sense also says firing on a shield will eventually bring it down.
So your logic is since they can use hyperspace teleportation this means all their tech is superior. That is one aspect alone and not the same thing as their forcefield tech. You need proof of the shields withstanding impressive assaults to make the claim. Their buildings went down pretty quickly by a few dark elf ships who did not improve their tech hundreds if not thousands of years ago. You need proof not a baseless assumption that does not correlate.
Both function the same way in creating an e edgy field to repel invaders. Different colors but the same function.
They were breaching the shields and Black Panther knew it was to better to control their entrance instead of allowing then to infiltrate through at multiple points. More than a handful made it through and the shields only protect one small part of Asgard. What about the rest? Is everyone going to hide behind the shields on mighty Asgard while their forces just pound away at them.
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^ Chitauri attack Thor demonstrating their weaponry is capable of harming Thor and a small group pose somewhat of a threat to Asgards greatest warrior Thor.
For them sure they are fearless beasts who did not operate vehicles, ships, or use weaponry but the impressive thing is their grunts can breach the most advanced nation on earths shield.
With the limited ships you have what makes you think they will make it to the Leviathans? Necrocraft, chitauri flying vehicles, etc. will all be littering the sky and it is not that easy to bring down a Leviathan. Blowing up a few weaker structures in Asgard is not the same thing as bringing down a Leviathan. I am not impressed or convinced one of these ships can bring down a more heavily armored and denser ship with contact alone. They can see the ships as well with the naked eye.
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^ Gif showing an Asgardian cannon easily taken down. Chitauri and the Necrocraft can definitely eliminate them. It also should not take long due to their minimal numbers.
Asgardian cannons will be taken out by the immolation initiative in my battle tactics post. We see very few cannons compared to the ships that will damage the land its structures with its defenses.
Hela needs to be in close proximity and have a clear line of vision to effectively employ her projectiles.
She was not behind a shield and had clear line of sight. Her sight will be impeded if she is within the shield and buried in a room. Her projectile did not even destroy the ship or prevent it from eventually blasting off and leaving. Ships will be dive bombing the land structures and the shield at the onset soon followed by countless Chitauri as well as Outriders surrounding all sides of the palace.
Thor is defending the siege of Wakanda in Infinity War. He runs in like he always does head first in combat. He would not hide behind a shield while others died defending Asgard. Thor rushes to the head of the battle.
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Siege-a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling the surrender of those inside.
^ Siege of Wakanda.
Not at all. Biggest army in the universe with smaller ships and more of them than the Elven ships as well as more infantry, more weaponry, more vehicles, without even mentioning the bigger and denser Leviathans. The land invasions we see from the Frost Giants and from the Dark Elves pale in size to Thanos army from Infinity War alone.
Firstly, Hela will not see Thanos in combat unless he deems it necessary. Thanos is safely away hovering far above Asgard in Sanctuary II. So your entire premise is flawed since you have already stated Hela is hiding behind a shield and extremely far away from Thanos. Black hole grenades take time to use and can even be used against the Dark Elves.
That is a claim that remains to be proven. Thor is someone you initially wanted to keel from the action now I am supposed to believe he somehow bee lines towards the Maw who you are not even aware of his location at this point.
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^ Loki impales Kurse which does not put him down or seriously hamper him shows that someone with Loki level strength can easily impale into his flesh.
^ At the end of the clip we see Loki use his own blackhole grenade against him killing him. He was caught completely off guard and unable to react in time to prevent his death. We also see Thor react in time to save Loki from suffering from the effects of this explosion. If you react quickly enough and are not struck on your person you can escape the effects of the explosion.
^ 8 seconds in Gamora explains that Ronan can isolate himself on his ship behind impenetrable doors on the Dark Aster.
48 seconds in Ronan tanks the Hadron Enforcer blast without any damage demonstrating he is extremely durable.
Towards the end he effortlessly overpowers a sober Drax. To toy with the Gotg is no joke so Thor should take him very seriously. Ronan has a lot more skill than the Hulk and Thor has struggled and been unable to put down the Hulk before.
I disagree entirely. Fenris is just a powerful wolf unable to use weaponry or use battle tactics. Gamora has shown extreme skill and nimbleness while taking down this beast which is more than likely superior to Fenris. She assessed where it was weak and killed it.
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Korath is someone on the level of Hogun or any sub elite Asgardian but close to. Corvus Glaive was getting the better of Vision who can lift Thors hammer and wields an Infinity Stone.
^ Near the end of the clip does Corvus have Cap on his backside and at his mercy while taking on Vision and Cap. With both aiding each other.
The same Captain America who did this to Thor and his hammer.
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Nebula is right near Gamoras level but slightly her inferior skill wise but that is not her greatest strength. Both were trained by Thanos and Nebulas durability and the ability to put herself back together is her greatest asset.
Malekith lost to Odins wife in combat so I would not mention him either at this or any other point. Destroyer killed fodder nothing more. Sif is far less impressive than Gamora and her feats pale in comparison so I do not get what she did that is impressive. I highly doubt you will convince me she is an asset to your Asgardian cause.
Heimdall ironically is someone who at the onset of Infinity War when we see is on his backside defeated. Thanos kills him a defeated opponent as a punishment. He is not important nor will he be relevant here. Heimdall is defeated rather often. Frozen in part one, needed help from Korg in Ragnarok against fodder, etc.
Warriors three will be easily overrun by Outriders who handed the Hulkbuster armor his ass prior to stormbreaker saving Banner.
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Last edited by quanchi112 on Sep 26th, 2018 at 02:13 AM
1. Spy and Wound/Kill Hela- Proxima Midnight and Corvus Glaive bide their time amidst the invasion of the Outriders storming Asgard. Similarly to how she monitored the location of Vision and deployed Corvus the moment Scarlet Witch joined the field and left Vision unattended.
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^ His Glaive weapon is capable of deflecting the energy of the mind infinity stone.
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^ Vision and his mind stone maiming Ultron along with aid from Thor and Iron Man.
^ In the link above we see how powerful the Glaive is since it is capable of disabling Visions phasing and capable of impaling him. Vision is neutered and hurt the rest of the film because of this weapon. This is what will be used to critically injure Hela who has been shown to be cut by other less impressive Asgardian weapons throughout Ragnarok.
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^ Showing her defenses broken and her being stabbed.
These two are highly skilled trackers who can dip in and out of the battle to accomplish objectives. They are tasked with maiming and wounding Hela. She was stabbed by multiple Asgardians throughout the film Ragnarok.
1:24 Hogun grazes her face with his mace in one on one combat breaking her defenses.
2:10 Hela is impaled from behind by a regular soldier showing she can be taken by surprise in a battle.
2. Kill Malekith and Laufey-Gamora, Nebula, Korath and a small group of Sakaraan mercenaries are tasked with the deaths of these two leaders. To kill any snake you attack the head and the body cannot function without it. Destroy the two leaders of these races and the rest of the forces will fall into disarray and chaos. They will be in multiple Necrocraft in the skies reacting according to intel and their surveillance of Asgard to learn the locations of these two leaders if they are not just amidst the foot soldiers fighting out in the open.
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^ Frigga shows more skill than Malekith in the gifs. Both Gamora and Nebula have greater skill, better feats, and trained by Thanos himself. It does not look good for Malekith if he is confronted by either Gamora or Nebula.
3. Locate Odin-after learning of Odins location completely overwhelm him with Chitauri, Outriders, and Sakaraans. In a previous post put up a gif showing what a small group of Chitauri are capable of against the physically much stronger Hulk with their weaponry, vehicles, and blaster fire. If Odin is attacked both on land by Outriders which I put up a gif also proving a small group can tear apart Hulkbuster armor and in the air by Chitauri Odin will be overwhelmed and eventually worn down. Lets face it Odin does not have any super impressive showings on the screen and lost an eye against just the Frost Giants in the war in Thor. If possible they will take him as a prisoner as a bargaining chip but
In the clip we see how Odin uses the Asgardians in a war against Laufey. We see mainly from the link how both factions meet in battle. It is Frost Giant vs. Asgardian without the use of aerial combat or the use of much technology. Just armed soldiers meeting head on with a slight dash of specialized weaponry in Odins spear and the casket of ancient winters. Odin and Asgard win but the Frost Giants managed to take an eye from Odin. No Frost Giant not even their leader Laufey is shown to be particularly impressive in one on one combat.
In a war one must strike down the leaders and their greatest physical ally. This will sow discord and hopelessness to see such races King or leader fall. Hela is the most impressive super powered threat in Asgard based off abilities and screen feats. With her damaged/and or killed this greatly weakens Asgard and its capable defenses. The Glaive is capable of damaging the vibranium body of Vision and disabling Visions phasing abilities leaving him weakened and far less formidable. The Glaive also showed extraordinary power in parrying and repelling the mind stone. I believe a weapon of this caliber is capable of wounding and or killing Hela provided it inflicts enough damage. With Hela being attacked from Midnight and Glaive as well from the sheer numbers of the Outriders I see no reason to believe why she would avoid this weapon for long since I already provided evidence of her defenses being broken in one on one combat as well as from regular soldiers in the heat of battle.
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Last edited by quanchi112 on Sep 26th, 2018 at 04:13 AM
Before I go forward I need to ask, how does this BZ get judged? Because if we're simply going to go back and forth stating our points it's no different from regular boards.
For example, I stated that nothing from Thanos' forces have shown that they can get through the Asgardian force field. You claim that because a few outriders got the the Wakandan force field that this proves they can somehow breach the Asgardian force field.
I think that's completely stupid logic, but unless we get some ruling on this we'll never move forward. So how does this thing get judged?
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