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Batdude123 and TheKahn's Holiday Herald Tournament
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TheKahn
The Dude abides

Gender: Male
Location: over yonder way

Warning Batdude123 and TheKahn's Holiday Herald Tournament

Teams
- two debaters each

Character Limits
- each team will select three characters for their teams with the top power limit set at the herald-level
- ie no team-busters like Despero or Thanos.
- no characters that are physically invulnerable/indestructible
- no matter manipulation of the opposition's bodies or "speed stealing"
- more limits will be applied as necessary to keep things fair

Draft
- Thursday, Dec 17 2009 at 8:00 pm EST
- Characters will be drafted one at a time
- Teams will need to provide the names of both partners, the name of the character desired, and a link to a bio to secure the character
- Characters will be taken first come, first served

(please log in to view the image)


__________________


Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."

Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."

Last edited by TheKahn on Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:29 AM

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 03:25 AM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

give me a little more details cause i'm interested


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:02 AM
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Badabing
Karen

Gender: Male
Location: Looking for the manager

Moderator

If this gets going, it will be moved to the Battlezone Forum.


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:03 AM
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TheKahn
The Dude abides

Gender: Male
Location: over yonder way

quote: (post)
Originally posted by psycho gundam
give me a little more details cause i'm interested


What do you want to know? smile


__________________


Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."

Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:05 AM
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JakeTheBank
Return of the King

Gender: Male
Location: Doomstadt

This sounds pretty cool! I'm interested in this.


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:06 AM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheKahn
What do you want to know? smile
basically, all tournaments come down to how exploitable the rules are, so it's best to start on the hard rules/limitations.

not saying you have to use it, but illadelph's tourney stips are a good framework


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:12 AM
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Badabing
Karen

Gender: Male
Location: Looking for the manager

Moderator

Digi made some guidelines a while back...

Guide for Tournament Directors

I. Overview
II. Expectations & Gaining Interest
III. Establishing Rules
IV. Drafts
V. Judges
VI. Battles
VII. Final Comments

I. Overview

A lot of people think they have great ideas for tournaments. Some of them are right. Some aren't. But few of those know how to run a tournament well, and the end product is that we have tournaments that fall apart for various reasons, or if they finish they do so in a less-than-efficient manner. This is the product of having participated in, hosted, judged in, or observed nearly every tourney ever run on KMC. Each tourney differs in the details, but a lot can be done to standardize the approach of the director in order to streamline the process.

II. Expectations & Gaining Interest

Expectations:
First and foremost, be prepared to field a ton of PM's, and to send out just as many. It's a thankless task, but you just signed up to take all kinds of crap from participants. If you aren't on every day, and can't see yourself responding to 5-10 PMs a day, and can't maintain steady upkeep for the 3-4 months that most tourneys take, don't do it.

Gaining Interest:
1. Ideally, talk to a mod first. There may already be a tourney in the works, or they may veto your plans for a tourney if there isn't enough thought put into it yet. Next, make an introductory thread. Lay out the general format of the tournament, but leave the particulars open to change and discussion. Gauge interest, pool tentative entrants, and hash out the particulars of the rules.
2. Make a sign-up thread. In the opening post, stress that each participant will have to commit to the tournament, which may include months of drafts and battles. PM those who don't seem as active to ensure their participation. Drop-outs kill tournaments. Do whatever possible to avoid them.
3. Ideally, sign-ups and final rule changes should take 1-2 weeks.

III. Establishing Rules

1. The Obvious: establish what prep time you will have, announce battle locations in advance (ideally) so that players can review them (often, an advantage could be conveyed by some locations that you might not see). Place limits on speed, strength, overall power, energy projection, healing, etc. etc. etc. Also a post count limit for each member who is participating. 10-12 posts per match is probably a reasonable maximum.

Also, an appearance minimum for drafted characters is strongly recommended. As in, don't allow a character who has only ever appeared in 4 comics. If they're being drafted, chances are they have a few great showings and no bad ones. It's hard to fight that sort of thing, or even get a definite power level for them. 10 comics is a safe minimum, though it can be altered at the host's discretion.

2. The Loopholes: listed below are some common loopholes that are used to create power combinations that are far beyond others at a particular power level. Establish a rule for each one, or be prepared to deal with them.
- Duplication: set a limit or ban it outright. Probably shouldn't be around at less than a herald level anyway.
- Constructs/Summoning: similar to duplication, set a limit or ban them outright. You can also make it so that constructs/summons have to be at or below the tourney limits.
- Power copying: this goes for both the draft picks as well as constructs/summons.
- Time Manipulation: usually best to stay away from this entirely. Time travel is a power few would want to see implemented in tourneys.
- Matter Manipulation: Is it allowed on the opposing team? On anything else (weapons, environment, etc.)? Not at all? Again, goes for constructs as well.
- Speed Force: Allow it at your own peril, at any level.
- Information Retention: Do characters retain knowledge from past matches? Particularly important in regards to power copying, but in other ways as well.
- Meshing Limit: Applicable mainly to amalgam tourneys, but also for power amping that can occur between two people. Is it allowed? Can characters be amped beyond tourney limits? Can participants access banned powers through meshes (speed force, matter manip, etc.) or not?
- Do feats by the character count if they are in comics that come out after drafts? Some tourneys have said yes, others no, others with the stipulation that they are only valid if they are consistent with the tier/level the character was originally drafted at. No herald feats for street levelers, in other words.
- People will find other loopholes. Count on it. Be ready to make decisions on them. And it doesn't hurt to simply make a "no loophole" clause in the rules, then invoke it to ban a potentially exploitive strategy. Or establish a total power limit, when other specific limits may not cover it.

3. Neutering:
Example: Matter manipulation is banned in this scenario. Let's say a character is drafted who meets all requirements, but can matter manip. The participant asks if they can use the character, just minus any matter manip. powers. You say yes. At this point, a precedent is set that can be dangerous. Let's also say the speed cap is at Mach 10. Now, someone can presumably draft the Flash and have him operating at exactly Mach 10 at all times. That may be an exaggeration, but if allowed, characters can and will be drafted that are beyond the caps. At that point, you give yourself the headache of establishing what is and isn't allowed, but for each character. Far more frustrating and time-consuming than making the rules once. It's also hard to keep judges aware of all of the neutering in such a scenario, so judging might be compromised.

Moral of the story, stay away from this if possible. You'll likely have to be the jerk during drafts, but an all or nothing approach is far better than bending the rules for such draft picks.

4. Don't change rules mid-tourney. It's bad form. Ambiguity may occur and a decision will need to be made, but make sure you let participants know that they should contact you with any "iffy" tactics beforehand to establish a rule on it. In fact, putting something to this affect in a sign-up or draft thread is a great idea. That way, they can't complain if they get ruled against later in the tourney.

IV. Drafts

1. You'll get 10-15 PM's a day concerning potential draft picks (or anger at your decisions). Be ready. This is by far the busiest time for a tourney host.
2. Usually a week is good for each round of drafts, with a day or two in between each draft. Establish a stopping day when you make the thread.
3. People will switch picks to counter the picks of others. Set a final date when picks can no longer be switched out.
4. Allow discussion and disagreement to occur, but stress that it must be kept civil. After a character has been contested for an ample period of time, weigh the evidence and make a decision. Establish it as final once it is made, or more chaos and argument will ensue. Read all posts in the draft threads (or other tourney threads) to make sure you understand each character that is being contested.

V. Judges

This is perhaps the most overlooked aspect of hosting. You need judges. Lots of them. Dedicated ones. Knowledgable ones. And you need to follow up on the judging. Ideally, have a steady rotation of judges so that there aren't just the same 4-5 people judging every match. To do this comfortably, you'll need no less than about 10 potential judges. Some will be more active than others, but as many competent judges as possible should be worked in.

Contact them early. Ideally during early drafts, once you know who isn't participating. Then PM them again when they are to be judging. Let them know to give their vote within no more than 2-3 days after a match ends, and ideally within 24 hours of it ending. One of the most unforeseen methods of slowing a tourney to a crawl are judges who don't vote in a timely manner. 2-3 days is a maximum. Let them know that you expect this, and if they can't do it, thank them for informing you and get a new judge.

VI. Battles

I've found that about 4-5 days is a nice amount of time for a battle. Enough time for participants to get a fair amount of debating in, and it leaves 2-3 days for judging so that you can stay on a roughly week-long cycle. Keeping things moving is key to maintaining momentum and interest. And part of the pressure is on you to keep judges steadily informed of their duties so that things continue to progress. If they aren't judging on time, it slows everything down, and the host is at fault just as much as the negligent judge(s).

Two matches a week is standard. More or less depending on tourney size.

Follow matches at least loosely. Chances are you'll be making 1-2 rulings during the matches themselves. You have to be around often, or else participants may not know if a tactic is legal or not for an entire match. If it isn't, one person's entire match may be for nothing. That kind of frustration makes unhappy participants.

VII. Final Comments

Try to enjoy it. It's a lot of work, but can be rewarding. But be prepared, and be active every day. Those two things are the biggest aspects of running a successful tournament.

The KMC default power level indicators are outlined here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t447826.html
Use these terms to ensure that everyone is on the same page.

Thank you Digi


__________________



You've just been Trump'd!

Official pimp of Steverules

Sig by Steve Rules

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:14 AM
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TheKahn
The Dude abides

Gender: Male
Location: over yonder way

^^^ We will be using the guidelines above esp the loopholes:

Loopholes
- Duplication: Banned
- Constructs/Summoning: No summoning and only constructs similar to a Green Lantern's are allowable.
- Power copying: Banned
- Time Manipulation: Banned
- Matter Manipulation: Banned on opponents/environment otherwise allowed
- Speed Force: Banned as a method for stealing speed
- Information Retention: Fighters start with blank memories at the start of each fight (ie they don't remember past fights)
- Meshing Limit: Power amping is allowed as long as it does not put a character above the Herald limit and can be accomplished once the fight starts (ie no prep)
- Do feats by the character count if they are in comics that come out after drafts? Yes, as long as they are consistent with the characters' other showings



quote: (post)
Originally posted by psycho gundam
basically, all tournaments come down to how exploitable the rules are, so it's best to start on the hard rules/limitations.

not saying you have to use it, but illadelph's tourney stips are a good framework


no expression I plan on being a hardass about the rules. For example, if you find a technique that enable a one-shot win, guanteed victories, gets you extra fighters, or bends the rules in the least, expect it to be banned.

Again, I don't plan on letting anyone cheat in any sense of the word in this tournament.





ps anyone wishing to be a judge please pm me or Batman123


__________________


Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."

Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."

Last edited by TheKahn on Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:29 AM

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:25 AM
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Blair Wind
The Iron Avenger

Gender: Male
Location: Stark Tower

quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheKahn
- Speed Force: Banned as a method for stealing speed
- Meshing Limit: Power amping is allowed as long as it does not put a character above the Herald limit and can be accomplished once the fight starts (ie no prep)



Do you mean Speed Force users are banned, or they are banned from using the speed steal ability?

Also, will there be prep at all?


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:28 AM
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JakeTheBank
Return of the King

Gender: Male
Location: Doomstadt

thumb up Sounds cool! I've been on and off the forum for a while, and I look forward to being involved in my first tourney here.


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:29 AM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

so no pre-fight preparation? i have no problem with that personally, just asking


__________________

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:29 AM
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TheKahn
The Dude abides

Gender: Male
Location: over yonder way

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Blair Wind
Do you mean Speed Force users are banned, or they are banned from using the speed steal ability?


Why does that question make me nervous coming from you? What the f**k?

For now, we'll allow Speed Force users but anyone planning to draft them and try some sort of shenanigans to get an unfair advantage risk getting the strategy banned. Again, no using it for speed stealing or time manipulation.


wink

quote: (post)
Originally posted by psycho gundam
so no pre-fight preparation? i have no problem with that personally, just asking


No prep. Fighters only have general knowledge about their allies and enemies.


__________________


Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."

Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:35 AM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

pre-crisis characters?


__________________

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:36 AM
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TheKahn
The Dude abides

Gender: Male
Location: over yonder way

quote: (post)
Originally posted by psycho gundam
pre-crisis characters?


Not a chance in hell. no expression

Sorry, but writers were just a little too lose with feats and hyperbole back then. wink


__________________


Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."

Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:39 AM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

Happy Dance


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:45 AM
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Blair Wind
The Iron Avenger

Gender: Male
Location: Stark Tower

quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheKahn
Why does that question make me nervous coming from you? What the f**k?


Because according to Digi I am:

quote:

Most Creative Participant: Blair Wind
Why: He routinely sets the high-water mark for inventive strategies, is always a threat to win, and while some may complain that he finds "loopholes," others simply see it as finding what is the most powerful legal strategy in any given tournament.


I'm thinking about judging though, so I may not end up giving you any headaches. stick out tongue

Or maybe a tournament consulting practice. If I decide not to participate, considering the time before drafts and having to find a partner I feel comfortable with, anyone is welcome to PM me for ideas or to help solidify their strategies. That much I can do as I much prefer the strategy aspect of the tournaments over having to write it all up.


__________________



>010010100100000101010010010101100100100101010011<

Last edited by Blair Wind on Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:56 AM

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:53 AM
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TheKahn
The Dude abides

Gender: Male
Location: over yonder way

We'll try to address as many questions/concerns that we can think of or that anyone wants to ask. So please feel free to ask if anything isn't clear. smile


Just in case anyone is wondering things like BFR to other demensions/planets, reality manipulation, characters able to move minds to an unlimited number of bodies, or intentional environmental destruction (ie creating black holes) are not allowed.

This is meant as a tournament to test your debating skills and battle strategies not to see who can bend the rules the most to win.


__________________


Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."

Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."

Last edited by TheKahn on Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:57 AM

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:54 AM
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TheKahn
The Dude abides

Gender: Male
Location: over yonder way

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Blair Wind
Because according to Digi I am:



I'm thinking about judging though, so I may not end up giving you any headaches. stick out tongue

Or maybe a tournament consulting practice. If I decide not to participate, considering the time before drafts and having to find a partner I feel comfortable with, anyone is welcome to PM me for ideas or to help solidify their strategies. That much I can do.


Either as a judge or competitor, its nice to have you on board. thumb up


__________________


Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."

Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 04:55 AM
TheKahn is currently offline Click here to Send TheKahn a Private Message Find more posts by TheKahn Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
TheKahn
The Dude abides

Gender: Male
Location: over yonder way

After consultation with my esteemed partner, Batman123, we've decided to be generous and allow teams to have 5 minutes of prep before each fight.

For the newer members, keep in mind that creativity and compatibility among your team is going to be critical when going up against some of the veterans. wink


__________________


Carl - "No, the real point is: I don't give a damn."

Carl - "This line, here? Line of Death. You cross it, and your freedoms no longer exist. Um-kay? Have a good day."

Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 05:39 AM
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Zeuodin
Restricted

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

Account Restricted

I need a partner


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2009 06:59 AM
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