A good luck to B-Dub, and a thank you to leo and the judges as always. Now let's get going.
I. Electric War
He made a big deal of mentioning my metal parts my team has. And I do. Except that my first tourney-reflex-capped action was to send a wide-range electromagnetic disruptor AND anti-metal pulse directly at him. This would happen before he summons Leapfrog, before he gets any attacks off, or even before he does much but gather in his surroundings. Both would destroy and cripple Victor (and thus his lone amalgam), and Leapfrog.
II. Leapfrog
Hoo-boy, where to start? We're in a cave. Maneuvering is going to be laughable. So he's already made himself a large sitting duck, and that's if he manages to summon Leapfrog and get in before I've incapacitated his entire team.
Second, stealth mode. Oohh, scary. 'cept he doesn't start stealthed, so I can see him and attack him. Second, stealth doesn't fool Spider-sense which is determining my opening attack and approach. The scans that prove this are all in my writeup. Third, the electromagnetic disruptor is an AoE affect, so it will shut them and Leapfrog down before they do much of anything. Fourth, SM has infrared and ultraviolet vision in his suit: http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/...uipment1lv4.jpg
Not to mention perfect night vision from his "The Other" upgrades.
So basically I have all of the same weapons against Leapfrog as I do against the team itself.
III. Cave-In
Boomer can run Mach 1. Spider-Man is stealthed, dodges like a madman, has webs to slow any save-in, and is also very fast. I'll be within range of them before any cave-in starts. So any attempted cave-in will be just as likely to hurt themselves (remember, debris can and has hit Judomaster, and his team can't survive a cave-in either), and I'm far quicker to dodge it.
Really though, I don't think it'll get to this stage. I think Blair's amalgamation is dead before any cave-in is triggered.
IV. News and Notes
- The first part of Blair's writeup is just a basic rundown of his team's specs and abilities. Fortunately, I've countered pretty much all of them. It doesn't matter that Judomaster went 18 rounds with Ted, for example, because it has no bearing on how I'm approaching this matchup. Once again, I feel like I have the prep advantage, because my plan is catered to his every weakness, while Blair is just kinda shooting and hoping I die.
- He did me the favor of posting the Noh-Varr scans I alluded to in my writeup. Or rather, THE ONE FEAT. That's right kids, one good showing ever for White Running. Can he avoid being hit by webbing entirely, from a Spider-Man character who's arguably faster? Can he avoid the countless explosives from both of my combatants? Can he avoid the goddamn anti-metal pulse that will disintegrate his ship, body, and weapons? Can he avoid the wide-range electromagnetic disruption? No on all counts.
- The bigger error was this: Blair has a single amalgamation of all three characters. How is he in a white run when he's operating Leapfrog?! He's not even utilizing his speed in the fight, he's just giving me a bigger, slower target to hit, disintegrate, web up, explode, melt with acid, etc. etc. etc.
Let's pile on a bit, eh? With only 4 days to write anything, I don't like leaving a day without a post (blame my old-school tendency to think of matches as a week long). Fear not though, judges. I intend to keep this short. I just think of more things to add on and can't leave them unsaid.
I don't expect some ABC logic and Namor fights to convince you that SM > NV. I do, however, expect everything I've posted in this thread so far, Spidey's gear, abilities, speed, reflexes, resources, etc. to convince you that SM > NV. So is Boomer/MK, but that should be more obvious. And this is just adding some logs to the fire. Spidey doesn't trash Namor, as he shouldn't. But they're undoubtedly better showings.
- Remember, 7 different AoE attacks to make Judomaster's aversion field worthless. Among them, an electromagnetic disruptor and anti-metal pulse. And many, many more attacks once I have them webbed and/or neutralized, including adamantium weaponry and hitting them with electric feedback (detailed in writeup).
- Leapfrog in a cave is just a bad idea. Besides the fact that it hurts their team in various ways (shown in my earlier post), and makes them an easier target, maneuverability is going to be a b*tch with such a large vehicle. There's a reason I left Angelwing pretty much out of my plans this week. Vehicles are a hindrance in this setting, not a help.
- I'm thinking of bringing back audio writeups/posts. Not match-related, but just an fyi. I wanted to give a heads-up to anyone who didn't hear my old ones, so that your mind doesn't explode when I post them.
Good luck to you as well Digi. Sorry for the late start, but RL sucks.
I. Sequence of events
I'm going to touch on this because Digi seems to have both remembered his own opening post wrong and misread my opening post. I'm going to quote his misunderstanding, then I'll quote the sections in the opening posts. This is so you can see the true sequence of events and decide how the match starts. This is what your second post said:
However, your first action was actually to:
While MINE was to:
You see I had ALREADY summoned Leapfrog in Prep and added the weaponry. I had also camouflage the Leapfrog in prep, so Boomer/MK would have no way of seeing it and Spiderman would have to rely on his Spidersense - which he won't be able to do with a massive set of weapons tracking him down overpowering his SS.
With that said, I have the quickdraw advantage. I also have the advantage of long range weaponry that can
Track you (are you faster than the Sentry? Don't think so) - This one weapon could kill you by itself and everything else would be redundant.
Cause MASSIVE Area of Effect damage. Not only would the cave in happen, you would be getting hit by the actual weaponry. In the confined spaces of the cave you would not have time to completely dodge as it, plus any rock that gets in its way, vaporizes you. Webbing and dodging can't save you from massive bombs, energy weapons, and all of Marvel Boy's weaponry. Not to mention the cave in that would result.
Disorient Spiderman's spidy sense since the immediate danger to himself would overtake him trying to locate us.
II. Leapfrog
Since my first attack happened with the Leapfrog and here:
Digi suggested it would be hard to move, lets show two different pictures of the cave that I found randomly searching Mammoth Cave:
I understand the entire structure won't be like that, but that more than fits the Leapfrog (much more than the AW with its wide body design compared to the compact frog)
Again, I'm not sure if you read my opening correctly. In prep, I activated camo. I'm invisible once the match starts. Your optics would not work AND since I'd be starting my attack right off the bat, your spidesense would be going crazy from the danger coming straight at you.
Without Spiderman to direct the attack [spidersense going crazy, not allowing him to focus on a direction] Boomer/MK would have no clue where to aim before they got hit by our assault or a clue that it was coming. Afterwards? Sure, they know the general direction of where we hit them. That assumes that they are not dead already however.
III. Cave-In
It is not just the cave in you have to worry about Digi. You have to realize I'm shooting my weapons AT YOU. The cave in is simply the secondary reaction I hope that occurs to further nullify your chances of winning. You would have to dodge my massive AoE attacks and a potential cave in while being disoriented in the cave.
I mean, have you seen our artillery? Imagine just one "cosmic bullet". You'd have no way of escaping. Or the Super grenade (imagine a self replicating super grenade). You have no way of escaping us man.
Now that we have established the sequence of events and all things correlated to it, lets discuss his attempted attacks. You have to realize however that because my first attack won the quick draw, he might not be able to even use these weapons. But lets assume he can so I can still discredit them.
Long Range Weapons
You have one scan where a man is talking on a communications line, Boomer puts up the trick boomerang and then the guy on the line is still talking. How would their tech work unless it was not effective? Did it work on the titans? Was Cyborg around so you can (sort of) prove that it would take it out Victor? Was it even shown again? I would have thought you would have substantial proof that this boomerang of his can actually do.......anything
Not to mention that you want it to take out a guy who controls electromagnetic powers through an small EMP (basically). That is like saying you want to hurt Iceman with an icebolt.
More likely, IF the boomerange can even be shown to be effective, it would take out Spiderman's suit immobilizing one of your own characters. I say this because Victor has never been disarmed by an EMP but the maker of the suit (Ironman) has on occasion been stranded like a statue due to an EMP. It is possible that a selfpwn would take place without actually harming Victor due to the nature of his very own powers (his powers create electromagnetic fields using real genes and a mixture of Ultron tech that is turning into human tissue).
No matter what, the only thing that is a fact is that the scan you provided gives no substantial prove of anything at all.
Not only did you not get a chance to throw this at me due to my quick draw, this thing has an EXTREMELY limited field. As in inches. The scans you showed where of him using it on things less than a foot away. The only time I ever saw it do anything impressive was when he threw it ontop of a set of lamps and the thing liquified. That would require you to hit me so dead on that the thing actually lodged into the leapfrog. But here is the thing:
The Leapfrog is stealthed
We are already shooting at you. By the time you throw it at us, you either miss or it won't matter. The damage we intended to cause will have been over.
We have magnetic powers to repel adamantium. Well, to repel ALL of your attacks really.
All moot. Any attacks of that kind would hit the Leapfrog if they can make it past my initial assault and the cave in. By that point? It won't matter. I'll have done the damage I needed to cause.
In addition, with Victor's powers most of those weapons would again be thrown right back at you. Using metal against me is not exactly your best bet Digi.
None of your weapons would ever reach me or be in range. In additiona, in a cave setting you need to aim around rocks at me - while I'm invisible mind you - while I just have to shoot in your direction since no puny rocks can block my weapons.
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Summary of Initial Sequence of Events (from beginning of match to the end of the long range scuffle):
We had the quickdraw (a tracking weapon that gave Sentry a run for his money) while they were surveying the land
Due to the quickdraw assault Spiderman's spidersense would be too overwelmed to "pinpoint" anything but danger and the general direction the attack is coming from
Due to our camo, Boomer/MK will not be able to see us or know an attack is coming before it happens.
Due to our vast array of weaponry, the rock wall will come down around them. They do not have the durability to deal with that amount of rock coming down on them.
The next sequence in the events that happen in this match after our initial quickdraws (which I have soundly won) is getting up close and personal. This would require my team to get out of the Leapfrog and their team to wearily break out of the cave in that has taken them captive.
This also assumes that their team has not died in the initial attack that I set forth. This could very much be the case, and if you choose to take that stance no one would blame you (except Digi, but I mean, he forgets about his own teammates, so who cares? ). However, for the sake of the judges who feel that a close range combat would take place let me talk to you about how it would go down.
Close Range - No Physical Fighting
You see, Digi tried to target each of my "weaknesses" - without his characters having any kind of knowledge on mine, but I digress - but even then he failed to realize that all three of his characters faced one big weakness against my team: they all have huge amounts of metal on them. I do not need to get close to them. No punching, kicking, biting, kneeing, or elbowing needed. All I need is a magnetic field
With it, I would take their armors (which surrounds both their bodies) and simply grab them. I just showed you Victor grabbing Wolverine, here he is taking apart a man's gun and using several bleachers to knock out Karolina
What defense do they have against this attack? None.
Close Range - With Physical Fighting
HOWEVER the mixture of Noh-Varr with Judomaster ensures that even Spiderman cannot land a hand on them. Speed and the aversion field would very easily allow me to spar with them as easy as fighting a child. I would never ever get hit.
And showing Noh-Varr vs Namor and then Spiderman vs Namor is a circular debate. Especially when taking into consideration Judomasters powers. Even then, I can do the same. Its ridiculous, but it's meant to be: Wolverine has given Spiderman his fair share of troubles. Molly Hayes took down Wolverine like he was a complete fool. Noh-Varr tossed Molly aside like a ragdoll. Therefore, Noh-Varr is better all around than Spiderman, right? (With the added Judomaster powers, I'm inclined to say yes).
Deadshot got him. Noh-Varr + Judomaster = Pure win.
Besides, like I've been saying, with Victor's powers this whole debate becomes moot. We CAN hang with you physically (Noh-Varr's physical abilities, especially in a white run + JM's power and MA skills) but we do not need to. Until we nail bomb you in the head that is
Just so you can remember Marvel Boy's awesomeness, I want you to picture how this would go if Marvel Boy could not be touched - due to JM's powers.
Yes on all accounts. My team as a whole has enough power to repel (Victor), speed away (Noh-Varr), or simply "dodge" (Judomaster). You keep thinking of my team has having the weaknesses of their individual characters, but those get covered by having all three together.
Especially with the Leapfrog there has added armor surrounding them. Which Victor can control (as pilot or magnetically).
Uh? I go White Run when I come out of the Leapfrog Digi.
NV + Judomaster > Spiderman. Or Boomer/MK.
Add Victor into the mix, and they won't be able to do much of anything once their personal armor gets taken and controlled.
In the beginning all you MIGHT hit - if you can survive the initial attack I send your way - is the leapfrog. My AoE attacks are better. 'Nuff Said.
You realize I have JM in my amalgam right? And you want to aim a cord thingy from Spiderman at me? Is this before or after I take over your Stark Issued metal deathbag?
The Leapfrog is rather small compared to the the AW and has limbs built for grabbing:
Either way, the purpose of the Leapfrog was to keep me hidden while sending you to your deaths. After that it was simply armor until we decided to come at you in close range.
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Summary:
We have at range powers that effectivelly null anything you do. Especially since it mostly involves metal/tech/suits of armor made out of metal.
In a hand to hand session you literally cannot touch us. We would murder you in H2H while keeping all your weapons at bay with magnetism
Once they are in my magnetic grip, what then? They die. It is pretty straight forward.
Nail Bombs. To the head. Epic way to die.
In short, my initial assault should kill them. They will not be able to pull of any attacks and if they do Victor repels them back onto themselves. Hand to hand I dominate because they cannot touch me (physically or with their weapons to do JM and Victor).
Also, if you judges vote me, I'll see what I can do to negotiate a deal with Leo that bans audio posts. Especially with Digi's voice (jk, they are pretty innovative)
'cept locating you with spider-sense and heading toward you would take mere seconds for me, especially with my team speed. In under 5 seconds after the battle starts, my team is moving faster than you'll ever hit and attacking you numerous ways.
In 10 seconds you did all that?! I'm skeptical.
In any case, SM has all of the explosive hoo-hah he needs from MK, webs, etc. and it's not like it'll take a genius-level intellect for MK/Boomer to follow suit with dozens of attacks in mere seconds.
Or how you're going to hit Boomer, whose speed and reflexes destroy your own. And if your answer is White Run, I've already explained why that isn't as good as you advertise, and that also puts you outside Leapfrog and thus no longer stealthed. You're either slow, big, and stealthed (though we can still find you), or you're smaller, squishy, and easy to see.
'cept I wasn't just using spider-sense. Pete also has ultraviolet and infrared vision built into his suit. I have numerous ways of finding you.
Ridiculous analogy. The attack disrupts EM signals. It wouldn't be like attacking Bobby with an icebolt, it would be like attacking him with something that disrupts the composition of ice.
It's nowhere near SM. I'm not stupid, and I'm not going to allow you to suppose that my team will be using stupid strategies.
I can find you easily. I'm stealthed too. You can't find me.
Blair, we start a Kilometer apart in a cave system. If you shoot in ANY direction at the beginning of the fight, you'll just be hitting cave walls that are much closer to your own team than mine. This "we shoot first" stuff is utter crap.
So yes, shoot first, by all means. Give me an easier target, and make some rubble in your general vicinity.
An anti-metal pulse would wreck ANY EM powers you have. Also, read through my "AoE attacks for JM" in my writeup again. I think you'll find that pretty much none of them can be repelled with magnetism.
You've been in enough tourneys to know this is crap. It doesn't matter what our characters know, it matters what you and I know, since we're in charge of their strategies and attacks. This has always been true in tourneys. If it were just our characters duking it out 90% of what happens in any tourney wouldn't take place.
And for that you need a 100% Victor. Fortunately, I nuked his ass 10 different ways before any of this happens.
Pointless posturing. I accounted for the aversion field in my entire plan. But once you're corralled (webbed, incapacitated, dazed, etc.) I can hit you with my extensive H2H weaponry, including claws with paralytic toxin in them (SM), adamantium, titanium-busting pincers, or just good ole punches.
It was meant to show Pete's superior speed and durability, not to comprise the entirety of my argument. But it did its job well, and you have yet to refute it. I dislike ABC logic but happened to have those scans lying around and I was bored yesterday. They don't prove that I win, they just add another straw on the already heavy camel's back.
Heh, funny. Boomer clearly didn't want to fight, and I have the scan of him tagging dozens of Deadshot's bullets with paperclips. Paperclips.
People get the better of speedsters occasionally. It happens. But would I show Deathstroke stabbing Wally West in Identity Crisis and say he's faster than the Flash? No. We know better. As we should here.
...I already posted the Jay Garrick and bullet-tagging feats. I won't do so again. But I think I've made my point.
And just so you remember that Marvel Boy is weaksauce, none of his feats match SM's speed, durability, and strength feats, or come close to Boomer's speed. There is literally one white run that is worth a damn in his history, and it was an ambush attack with lopsided initiative. And outside stimuli that he isn't planning for can bring him out of the white run easily.
Hahahah, excellent. There's a reason I posted the lesser anti-metal feats in my writeup:
However, this is a moot point. You're not fast enough to avoid my attacks, so wide-range or not, Boomer is going to put that anti-metal pulse down your damn throat.
New Tactic
Electromagnetic manipulation from Victor, right? Everything in the electromagnetic spectrum has a frequency on which it operates. And, bob's yer uncle, I can use MK's tech to pinpoint the frequency and emit a counter-frequency to negate it. http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/...htv3_045_06.jpg
I literally have so many ways to take out Victor that I can't remember them all at any one time.
News and Notes
- I want to reiterate that we start a kilometer apart in a cave system, so anyone silly enough *coughBlaircough* to shoot as soon as the match starts, isn't hitting anything but cave walls near them. His belabored quick draw rebuttal is for nothing.
- Anti-metal, electromagnetic disruption, the counter-frequency I just introduced above, explosives from both my toons, acid boomerangs, webs, sleep gas, collateral damage. So many ways to kill them. And that's just AoE attacks, and doesn't include what I can do to them once they're webbed.
- Electric feedback from Spidey is only after they're webbed/immobilized. Blair wanted you to think I would try to do it before then. Except for the fact that [SPOILER - highlight to read]: I can. See, SM's suit respond to his telepathic commands, and can spread out like webbing: http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/...uipment1lu2.jpg
...so I can literally grab him with the suit at the speed of thought and shock him with feedback. Just one more way to die.
- Blair paraphrasing me here: "Snipped but basically: My team won't be hit by a cave-in. We are too cool. Spiderman dodges. Boomer runs really really fast. Hi-ya." Epic sh*t. I lol'd. That's my new battle cry: We are too cool. Hi-ya!
FU-CK. I had a reply. It was apparently too long. Cant save it. And a fire alarm in my dorm. If I could have an extensiont to reply, I'd love that. But if not. Whatever. Be back shortly.
So here is what happened: I had a reply that I was working on since 11:01 - only time I had to sit and actually write. Split into two posts. I was finishing up my second post when a fire alarm went off just a few minutes ago in my dorm, which requires us to exit the building and get checked off a list. Decided it was better to have two and a half posts than no posts at all. Hit submit reply to the first post (after checking that the character message length was appropriate). Sometimes it lies to your face, so when I hit submit it wouldnt go through. I tried to backspace, all I got was the original quotes that I was working with, nothing that I had added.
So I was completely screwed. Im going to go back and redo it, but I won't post it. Ill let Leo and Digi decide if they will allow it. Thanks for at least considering the matter.
edit: for clarification. I'm pissed. Stupid things like this are ridiculous. ugh.
our match's last post was my attempt to catch any potential funny business, but at 11:58 1/2 my wireless connection crapped out. i had to scramble to restart my router.
and what's x minutes late gonna hurt anyway? leo's an understanding type a guy. technically you did post it on time though.
Its a post and a less than a half. I tried to recreate the original post as much as possible. Theres a few large scans but not a scan blitz by any means. Posting in a second.
eh. Almost lost it all again. Thank goodness I copied and pasted this time. There really needs to be function that saves your work once you hit submit.
Blair Wind Post #3
In 5 seconds you want to discover me - while I am invisible, coordinate your way using the cave for cover, and have Boomer target me - again while invisible, all while I'm just standing there? More likely you try to find my general direction, start moving and then BAM. You get hit by my long range homing energy missles. And then proceed to die a long horrendous death by weaponrgy and rock.
Not only that, but any of your attacks would have to go around rock. Mine can go straight through, or dodge around like with the homing missles.
Victor made a transformer out of a car in less than ten seconds. He's manipulated benches to form giant hands, has handled weaponry, multiple objects at the same time. All I'm asking is that he add some weapons on the ship. If he can do this:
He can do that. Then I have the all too complicated process of hitting a button to go camo
Digi, by following the actions we have taken during the opening post my very first action is to hit you with my long range homing energy missles. Yours was to slink through cave cover. And unless you are faster than the Sentry, who got hit TWICE by them tracking him, you will also fall prey to its attack.
I find you by finding Captain Mooner. Who is not shielded. Easy. Now how am I going to hit you guys? Thanks for asking, I'll answer it easily:
Are you faster than the Sentry? No.
Have my energy weapons proven to be up to Sentry's speed? Yes.
Do you really hate the White Run that much? Either way, you are neglecting the fact that you cannot hit me with anyone because of both Victor (for long range) and JM (short range) while Marvel Boy has excess amounts of speed that he can actually maintain at high levels. So, the White Run coupled with those facts = win. If we even need to get in close quarters combat outside of the Leapfrog.
Doing a google scan of "Middle/Center/Epicenter of Mammoth Cave" - words used individually - results in images like these:
And being that we are in the center of the Cave, well....there you go.
I have to disagree. They are dictated by who has the best range (omni-directional), defenses, and offense. And that is me.
Pointless talk. In the end, your scan shows nothing. And your inability to produce a scan that actually shows anything is further proof that this attack is meaningless and has no merit of any kind.
Furthermore, you are also stating that you are supposedly coming towards me, will throw this blindly, and then it won't be in range to hit you? Sounds fishy. Then again, the entire concept is fishy since the scan has not been shown to do anything. If it did do something, you'd probably self pwn both Spiderman and Captain Mooner (depending on the tech he has on his suit).
You assume that your infared and ultraviolet will let you see me while cloaked. But who needs to spot you when you have Captain Mooner standing there. Just shoot at the two of you and Ill be fine.
Like I explained above, I have long range homing energy missles. Not only that, but by stating you are simply running in my direction makes it even easier to shoot at you. And on top of that, Mammoth cave is long and wide many times without obstruction.
Your anti metal pulse attack is ridiculous. The range on that sucker is limited to inches. I know you posted some scans of "larger" uses and even then it sucks. I mean, lets compare the range of my magnetism with your anti pulse:
Like I showed in the scan, if the pulse was worth a damn, it would have liquified the weapon in his opponents hands, the metal on his jacket, or even the car behind him. But sucks. My magnetic abilities would allow me to repel it and then strip you of it
Also, you might want to re-read all your AoE attacks for JM. They all have some kind of metallic component to them, even the webbing since they can be indirectly controlled by controlling Spiderman's suit.
Any of your attacks would be repelled by magnetism. Especially your boomerangs and your adamantium weapon.
Do you really think that posting a scan - out of context - and then expecting the judges, who I believe are smarter than that, to think that the scan means Victor is useless is really acceptable? We have no idea what the ordeal he went through previously was. You want to play it off as something simple, but the truth is you have no idea what he did previous.
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Summary (sort of). Just important things to consider:
His EM boomerang is pathetic. It has literally no feats behind it and if it did Digi did not bring it to the table, therefore it is inadmissable. Not only that but he expects you to believe that if it did work it would somehow, magically mind you, not affect him.
His anti pulse range is terrible. I can block the weapon from several yards out before it ever hopes to affect me
My homing missles were fast enough to tag Sentry. Agile enough to follow him through the air. And the rest of my long range weaponry has massive AoE.
My magnetism range is much better than anything he can hope for
If he wants to get physical he won't be able to touch me
You obviously did not account for all my powers in tandem. You can't touch me Digi. Victor takes care of your weaponry, Marvely Boy is there for speed and, JM takes care of you aiming at me.
I don't need to be better than you physically -- though I have enough tactical edges to make it so -- when I can grab your armored suits magnetically.
Spiderman is good. But no amount of greatness will save him from his "upgrade" - the suit - being controlled magnetically.
Captain Mooner is fast. But being fast doesnt matter when I can control the armor he is in.
In the end? You either die from my long range assault or you die with nail bombs to the head. Or me suffocating you with your own suit of armor. What a way to go, eh?
News and Notes
- His main attacks (Em and Anti Metal) either have no feats or no range. My range is better all around as are my weapons.
- My homing missles were able to track and keep pace with the Sentry. Spiderman and Captain Mooner should be no different.
- Physically they cannot touch us. Period. Victor takes them at range and if they happen to get close, JM's powers take over.
- I'm glad I could make Digi laugh. Good luck Digi man. It was nice having a good clean match. For that, I give you the crest of responsibility. You know, since you are a mod. And you remind me of Joe.
KMC Community Forums
Apr 13th, 2010 09:34 PM
). However, for the sake of the judges who feel that a close range combat would take place let me talk to you about how it would go down. 
Is this before or after I take over your Stark Issued metal deathbag?
(jk, they are pretty innovative)
