So, at the very least, when Monolith releases his energy, Starhawk, who is already moving light-speed, would have no trouble getting out of there.
However, he wouldn't need to wait that long, there is no doubt, given his reaction speed, he would see the wake of destruction ripped through New York City by this missile. Granted, he probably wouldn't be able to get Giselle or Exodus out of there with him, but there is no doubt Starhawk gets away without a scratch, he can move faster than the attack you are using.
So, granted, you have a pretty strong attack coming at my remaining characters. However, Giselle's shields should be more than sufficient to stop the initial attacks.
In this scan, she is easily deflecting an all out attack from the master of one of her planet's mage guilds, one of the most powerful magic users in that universe:
So, her shields are going to hold up to a lot of damage. So, if they hold, Exodus quickly helps her deflect the energy, as he is shown to be able to do here against Sersi:
So she can certainly TP to a point where her and Exodus have a chance to save their breath, maybe save if you wanted to send Lightray at all three of my characters alone [sic].
Even if they take some damage, neither have a low durability, Giselle had a castle fall on her:
And, if necessary, Exodus will leach power from Monolith, the fact you are amping him stronger actually would make this ability work better for Exodus:
Further, if Exodus is feeling overwhelmed, he can let one of these off (with Monolith giving of psychic energy, he might as well be glowing for all Magneto's effort to hide him, at least to Exodus):
And even then, in the highly unlikely even that you take Giselle out (she can still TP exodus away if he gets KO'd), Starhawk can get her out at lightspeed. Once away, or even under cover from Exodus if necessary, Starhawk can provide any necessary healing:
So, it wouldn't take a genius to figure out your plan. Exodus knows Magneto, and would know his psychic signature, if ultimately unable to penetrate his mind. He could easily read the minds of Lightray or Living Monolith, and he would likely be familiar with the latter due to the associations to Apocalypse anyways. Starhawk is a light manipulator, so Lightray wouldn't be able to hide his amplifying of Monolith from him either (I don't think its even necessary to try to get into “the one who knows” at this point either). Giselle, either through realizing that she was attacked by an invisible force or after being informed by Exodus, uses this power to see the magical energies of your team:
While at the exact same time, Exodus starts a massive psychic barrage on Lightray, bloodlusted and intent to kill (assuming Lightray is still focused on amplifying Monolith, which he should be, he has no way of knowing my team's plan, and he would be distracted by the dinosaurs):
The Wiki certainly doesn't insinuate that Lightray has any major psychic defences, and Exodus is among the the most powerful psychics in the Marvel Universe:
And also given that Monolith is busy with a heard of dinosaurs, Exodus should have more than enough time to end Lightray's shit. If he gets in serious trouble, he can psychically call for Giselle to TP him out, or for Starhawk to FTL speed over and heal him (if they aren't occupied of course)
With Lightray disabled, Monolith should fall to Exodus fairly quickly in psychic combat. Exodus should be able to shield against anything Monolith has to dish out:
And his psychic attacks would quickly overwhelm Monolith's limited psychic abilities.
So, immediately after teleporting in the dinosaurs, Giselle teleports to Magneto, Starhawk following (this all coordinated psychically by Exodus, who is very familiar with Magneto and what might be done about him), and begins a full on magic assault. I don't actually know if Magneto has ever been tested against magic before, but there is nothing stopping Giselle from transforming Magneto's clothing into insects to distract him:
So it is arguable that powerful mystic attacks and the sigil alone would break Magneto's shield, at which point Giselle can promptly drain his energy and KO him:
Or use her sigil power (the enemy she defeats here was a golem that fed on mystical artifacts, absorbing their power, of which he had just absorbed an entire armory of):
Speaking of which, since Starhawk uses light to attack, it is possible he could just naturally bypass Magneto's shield, as Magneto is able to see out of them. Starhawks light attacks have even broken Krovac's shields, which Thor could not do through strength:
Actually, you technically have Lightray manipulating light through Magneto's shield...
Anyways, if Giselle is hurt, she teleports Magneto away, gets healed, then teleports to him (she can see his energy) to attack again. Taking out Starhawk would be difficult for Magneto, as he moves faster than Magneto's brain can process.
If he isn't down by the time Exodus is done with your other team members, Exodus will join in with his heavy arsenal:
Sorry for the delay folks, let's get this show on the road.
At long last, here's the how and why my team will ravage the opposition without breaking a sweat:
First I'm going to talk to you guys about why my opponent's arguments and reasoning proves to be groundless and false. This will deal with what he's posted so far.
Then I'll get into the extension of my own strategy, and give more construction to prove that my team is undoubtedly both more powerful and capable.
Firstly: inimalist's 'Defense'
So, what inimalist has admitted is that Starhawk won't be able to do squat to help his teammates out during the initial strike.
What he's then proceeded to claim is that Giselle's shields will hold up against the force of a speeding, Cl. 100 Monolith pumping out a sun's worth of energy.
To back this up, we're given scans of the shields struggling to hold up against the claws of a giant bird. Or being visibly worn away at by strikes of a sword.
This allows him to use all his powers just like Havok, except he can absorb any and all energy, has never shown an upper limit, and has a greater variety of ways to output this energy (please log in to view the image)
Here, Monolith absorbs all the energies that Iceman, Sunfire and Storm can toss at him without even noticing. Xavier finds out that his mind is impenetrable, and leaves with Jean. Meanwhile, Magneto uses Polaris to tap into the Earth's magnetic field, causing more power to flow through her than she's ever felt before, and throws all this power at Monolith. He doesn't even notice, just absorbs it.
So, in order to prove that Giselle could shield against an attack vastly superior to one that Vulcan stood no chance against, in addition to Cl. 100 thunderclaps and such, we're given scans of Giselle having issues shielding against sword strikes and bird claws.
Giselle's shields will crumble almost instantly, and then she and Exodus will be deep fried.
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Their second defense is the claim that they'll be able to teleport away.
This doesn't make sense.
a) This requires their shields to hold up long enough for them to think "oh shit!". Which they haven't proven capable of yet. The thought of a teleportation spell will never occur before they're ashes.
b) This requires Giselle to have any attention left to focus anywhere other than on the maitenance of her shields. Notice that in all the scans provided for Giselle's shields, whenever they come under stress, Giselle's entire attention is directed towards them.
It's not like she can do what, say, Magneto can do, and laugh off these attacks while multitasking eighteen other things. If she's their one hope to shield and escape, that's silly and they're even more screwed.
c) It's not like our onslaught is going to end after the initial strike. Monolith is going to continue to use his sun's worth of energy to batter away every second, and the moment that there's any crack (which, given the evidence inimalist provided, will be very soon), then they fry. However, this could go on for days. Years. Monolith is immortal, and has more energy than he knows what to do with.
They, on the other hand, are trapped, with no avenue of escape and no capacity to accomplish anything to save their own asses.
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Their third defense is to claim that Exodus will help 'deflect the energy'.
In my next post, I'm going to get into why attempts to affect energy flow as well as any energy attacks are nerfed thanks largely to Magneto and Monolith.
However, it's noteworthy that Exodus's suggested method to aid would be to direct the energy back at Monolith... which would simply be reabsorbed.
Thanks for keeping us fueled.
Also, in the scans above, as noted, Xavier and Jean's attempts to even make a base link with Monolith's mind were futile. In the past, Monolith has actually turned these attempts back on Jean by using sonics to aversely affect her through the mental link. So, Exodus will be little help in that regard.
-----------------------------------
Finally, inimalist talks about how good their durability is. No feats provided actually back up the notion that they good take the damage given by a Cl. 100 pumping out ridonkulous amounts of explosive energy, but I think it's lulz to note that Giselle's posts in this regard had to do with surviving a castle falling on her (which looked like it took time to recover from):
This entire time we've only been talking about Monolith and been ignoring Lightray and Magneto for the most part because, despite being vastly powerful, they're not needed to take out two thirds of your team.
That being said, Giselle had issues surviving a castle falling on her?
Magneto has the entirety of New York City to play with.
Anywho...
The opposition is screwed. They have no method to survive the onslaught provided by Monolith alone in prep, and in my next post I'll expand on all the other options open to us to destroy them however we feel.
So, it looks as though we are going to be destined to debate the first instants of the battle ad nauseam then.
Before I even begin, I think it is important to note that I gave at least 2 contingency plans in my first post should Giselle's shields fail. The argument you posted, specifically about why her shields would fail, is something I already addressed. However, you have completely mischaracterized the nature of her shields, so I will address that below, though the important point I am making here, is that your argument is presenting nothing that I didn't account for in the first place.
From the way it looks to me, your strategy relies on how impressive your prep attack was. At the risk of looking pedantic, we are going to have to go over this in a little bit more detail, especially in terms of reaction times.
First though, you don't know where my team is to launch Monolith at:
Basically, rule 8 (no knowledge of opponents) mixed with rule 16 (spirit of the law), and followed by specific questions I asked Kandy about battlefield knowledge:
or about future-sight:
clearly would be interpreted as your team not knowing, at the first instants of the match, where my team is located. It would take you at least a couple of seconds to locate and aim at my team. I don't want to win because of some technicality like this, but this would give me enough time to argue that Exodus learns your plan prior to you shooting Monolith. However, it really isn't that important, just something to be taken into consideration: It is arguable that Giselle teleports away before you even send Monolith in my direction.
Another issue is this: You are relying on Monolith moving from where Magneto is to where my team is faster than my team can react to it. Yet, you also say that as Monolith makes this journey, he is able to release an energy blast that damages my team. This isn't really possible. Monolith doesn't have reaction speeds fast enough to do this. The only attack you could possibly make with monolith here is using him, as in his body, as a projectile. Which brings up another point; you have just sent Monolith, moving at “interstellar speeds”, through NYC. The physical damage he would sustain from this, not to mention from colliding with Giselle's shields, would be immense. No wonder you want the match to be over after he collides with my team, it is almost certain that you delivered the KO to Monolith yourself. You also mention Monolith's cl 100 strength as if it would have any effect on how powerful this attack would be. His strength would be pointless during his use as a projectile. He doesn't have the reflex speed to punch or anything while he is being thrown, so this is basically a red herring. The best you could say is that he might have dense muscles, but his overall strength will have no impact on how strong the force of this attack is.
So, the timeline, in a best-case scenario for your team, would be:
- Locate my team before my team becomes aware of your plans
- Aim and launch Monolith, before my team can get away
- Launch Monolith so fast that even he cannot do anything while traveling through NYC (taking substantial damage from the buildings he is crashing through)
- Monolith hits Giselle's shields
At this point, sure Monolith might be able to make an energy attack, or thunderclap, or any of those other things available to him, but here is where my contingency plans come in: If Giselle is injured by this attack, Starhawk flies her out at FTL (or at least faster than Monolith can react) and heals. There must be a period of time between Monolith hitting Giselle and his ability to make another attack. And as I just said, if Giselle is injured and cannot teleport away, Starhawk can rescue her in this period. However, if Giselle maintains even a small level of consciousness after this attack, she can teleport away before Monolith can make this second attack.
First, Giselle has “bullet-time” reflexes, seen here creating shields to block bullets being shot at her:
But most importantly, is the fact that Giselle doesn't even need to be aware of the situation to cast the teleport. On Giselle's planet, magic is divided into guilds, each with a living leader that is, at the time they become leader, given the spirit of the first guild leader. However, because of her sigil, Giselle accidentally trapped these souls within her. Not only can they instruct her about new spells:
Most relevant about this scan is that Giselle did not even know magic when they used her to cast the bolt or shield. Sure, at times, as a plot device, the spirits have refused to aide Giselle, but in a no PIS/bloodlust scenario that we are dealing with here, Giselle would not only have access to their combined knowledge, the spirits would act in her favor, constantly.
Her reaction time, mixed with the fact she doesn't even have to cast the spell, show pretty clearly that, so long as she stays conscious (as she did when a castle fell on her), she is able to teleport away in the time between Monolith crashing into her and the next attack that is made.
Again, this assumes best-case-scenario for you. There is no reason to believe Monolith isn't dazed after being thrown as you have, let alone knocked out. If Monolith needs even a second or two to recover from being launched, at “interstellar speeds”, I'm gone.
So, before we go any further, to recap: If you harm Giselle, Starhawk has more than enough time to save her (and exodus too, if necessary). If you don't absolutely and unequivocally KO Giselle, she has more than enough time to teleport away.
Also, just to address your inference that Havok might pose some threat to Exodus or Giselle, here we see Exodus match Havok's energy output, after shrugging off an attack:
The previous post really only addresses my contingency plans should Giselle's shields fail. Ultimately, they will be unnecessary, because you have simply tried to explain away Giselle's shields, rather than addressing their strength. First, you complain that they merely stop swords, though you fail to address the strength of the attacker (likely close to, if not surpassing cl 100). Then, you explain away her blocking the attacks of a mythical monster as “a large bird”. While it isn't obvious, what you see if you look at these scans is that the bird only appears as a bird to Giselle. To the leader of the Shaman guild, it appears as Giselle herself.
The monster takes the form of one's greatest fear. This would be like explaining away a victory over Fing Fang Foom as “just beating a lizard” [sic].
Further, you do not even address her ability to deflect very powerful magic attacks, from people bent on her death, in this case, multiple Guild leaders at once:
Nor do you address her blocking attacks from one of the strongest members of the First. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of issues available to compare Marvel and Cross-Gen hierarchies, but this individual is one of the most powerful of the God race. This would, through inference of course, be like standing up to the attacks from Highfather level characters, nothing to scoff at indeed.
What has to be remembered here is that, while Magneto has had hundreds of appearances, Giselle has merely 50 to have shown the full power of her shields. Though this is a very low number, they have still stood up to powerful opponents, as shown, and in fact, have only been broken once. Possibly a better argument on my side would be to show what it actually takes to destroy her shields, so:
Her opponent is known as Soulsandra. She created the First. So, in terms of cannon, the only thing that has broken Giselle's shield is, literally, one of the most powerful beings in the Cross-Gen universe, and even then, it is after multiple strikes.
This would be akin to showing Magneto taking not a single blow from a weakened Galactus, but a barrage from a recently fed big G. Obviously this is an inference from Cross-Gen to the Marvel U, however, saying anything lower than a powerful cosmic blast will get through Giselle's shield, is itself, the very same type of inference. Since cannon scans are the best form of evidence we have, your projectile-Monolith attack clearly doesn't do as much damage as what it took for Soulsandra to break Giselle's shields, as was shown, on panel.
So, like after my first post, my team is out of your range and healed.
Unfortunately you really only raise 2 points that deal with my attack. The first being that Monolith's mind is impenetrable, the other that Magneto is going to throw NYC at Giselle.
Well, it is possible that, while being amped by Lightray, Monolith is a powerful telepath (it seems he is being fed energy in the scan you provided), you have shown nothing to suggest Lightray survives even momentarily against Exodus' psionic attack. With Lightray down, will Monolith still stand up to one of Marvel's most powerful psychics? I doubt it.
Secondly, sure, Magneto is powerful, no doubt about it, and versatile, sure. But, anything he sends at Giselle can be turned into harmless butterflies or teddy bears:
This last one, healing Martinex, is the most impressive. It is said in (iirc) the next issue that it is because of Martinex's unique crystaline physiology that Starhawk cannot heal him quickly. Were Martinex a human, like Exodus or Giselle (or at least in possession of human physiology), he could have been healed to full health, as Valkyrie and Surfer were.
Given you have immobilized Lightray by making him a battery, the only character you have who could have dealt with Starhawk is easily defeated by Exodus. Neither Magneto nor Monolith could see, let alone attack Starhawk; he moves faster than their attacks. Nor would either of them stand up to a FTL speedblitz for any amount of time. Though Starhawk vs Lightray would be the most boring fight, ever, he would be your only chance to prevent him from letting loose a FTL barrage against the remaining members of your team. Once he is down, the blitz can begin.
BTW, here is the entirety of the castle scene. This takes place after an intense fight as well, so this is an already injured Giselle. It takes a mere pep-talk to get her in what appears to be fighting form (in fact, she defeats two of the first immediately afterward):
So, ya, I know this has been slow, but my classes are done now, and barring the exam I have on Friday, I am able to put the time into writing these battles. KK, if you want to end this round, I'm cool with that, I'm happy with this being my last post, but to be fair, Smurph should get a rebuttal. Or if you want to extend it, no worries by me .
__________________ yes, a million times yes
Last edited by tsilamini on Dec 8th, 2010 at 01:52 AM
Draft picks: Both teams were pretty well balanced and stacked in terms of power. I think Smurph had the edge in raw power and possibly in terms of cohesiveness. Inimalist gets bonus points though for using an Indie comic book character and adding some variety to this match. It also takes some chutzpah considering non Marvel, non DC, non popular Manga/Anime characters are going to come under higher scrutiny. Call this category a split.
Prep: Smurph wins this one, mostly because Inimalist didn't really have prep. Though it isn't a clean sweep considering Inimalist raised some fairly valid points about the feasibility of some aspects of the prep scheme.
Debating: Smurph's aggressive debating style serves him well, and I just wish he had come up with a retort to Inimalist's last post cluster since there were a few holes in his argument there that Smurph could have possibly torn open. Inimalist did a fine job of debating as well and that combined with the fact that Smurph disappeared gives Inimalist the comfortable win in this category.
Supporting Evidence: Inimalist takes the win. At first this category was in Smurph's favor, but Inimalist made a good accounting of himself and his team in the last post cluster.
Winner: Inimalist.
__________________
“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."
-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.
before i cast my judgment, i need two pieces of critical information from both combatants; 1) from inamalist i need to understand just how powerful the characters are that were attacking gizelle, cause as it is they are a bird and a dude with a sword as far as i'm concerned. a castle falling i can wrap my head around, but those guys..not so much; 2) from smurph i need to see a substantial monolith durability showing, be it monilith weak, normal power, or his max due to the current situation it will do a great deal of help here.
i don't think i need to go into detail why those two pieces are needed in this scenario.
Oh, man, I didn't realize judges had posted for some reason. Psycho, you can't ask for further posts after the deadline is over. They're supposed to have presented their evidence by then, and that's all you get to judge based on.
Oy vei, this was a bit difficult to judge, so let's look over what will happen before "the fighting" starts:
Monolith will be powered up and used as a projectile for Magneto's makeshift gauss rifle.
Monolith gets pretty large (pause) when he absorbs energy and even if you assume he gets to twice the mass superman was when he did this (which he usually is) at "just under lightspeed":
new york, and more than likely the planet will be a fine mist, and like it or not that's where the fight will be.
Mind you, the living monolith has in fact become extremely large in the 80's, and during the Climax of the twelve arc he was as large as a sentinel (note* the conduit was broken)
Inamalist's shields....
I'm still not sure they will be able to withstand the sheer kinetic force that will be unleashed here, he did give more evidence that the characters that attacked his mage were stronger than they seemed before, but this will not be the same as that....... and the remainder of Smurph's team is not only shielded, but cloaked. Monolith may be ko'd or even comatose, but the energies that feed him will revitalize him and he's back in the fight again.
If all of Inamalist's characters minus Starhawk are gone, would Starhawk be able to make carry the weight? Imo, no.
i'm just not convinced Monolith's presents and/or initial attack on the battlefield will be countered properly or properly defended against, and that still leaves Lightray and Magneto to deal with.
Smurph takes this as Monolith might quite possibly be the only living thing left after the initial strike, and even if he's not, Inamalist's team is still in trouble.
__________________
Last edited by psycho gundam on Dec 15th, 2010 at 06:05 AM
I edited out in's last post, per Kandy's ruling there (which wasn't exactly a ruling, just confirmation of a general tourney rule). If anything else needs changed, let me know.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 23rd, 2010 10:36 PM
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