Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Naija Boy vs Newjak WBH strength Battlezone
Ok, lets get this show on the road.
World Breaker Hulk as he appeared at the end of HOTM was literally the culmination of Paks fanbyism. He was Hulk portrayed as being exponentially stronger than any of his previous incarnations consistent portrayals/ powerlevels and this was clearly evidenced in his on panel feats. Now note the use of the word consistent as it is extremely significant. All characters have high end feats and low end feats which are lower or higher than their respective norms. Hence there are times that characters will perform astronomically high feats far beyond their station and even miles beyond their tier i.e (Surfer vs Unilord, Hal vs Krona etc ). The silver age is particularly notorious for these kind of outliers. Hulk is no different and in his previous incarnations has some extremely ridiculous outliers even beyond what WBH did such as mindless Hulk doing this: http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/fd94c647a7
Especially notable is that in Hulks case, these feats were performed when Hulk was NOT angrier than ever before and at times even relatively calm. Still, in spite of feats like these, characters have consistent portrayals which define our conception of their power level/tier and in this case strength level. Hence although mindless hulks collision with Ironclad producing enough concussive force to fill countless dimensions is one of the greatest strength feats in comicdom, it is by no means their norm nor is it the level either mindless hulk or Ironclad would operate at within a forum battle since that is not the level they operated at consistently during their comic careers. Even a calm Grey Hulk, has a feat of destroying an asteroid twice the size of Earth (which though not entirely a strength feat should be far above his capabilities) but he is certainly not conceived of as being at that level generally based on the totality of his appearances. Therefore when I refer to World Breaker being 10x stronger, it DOES NOT mean that I am claiming that WBH has a feat more than 10x better than anything any version of Hulk has ever done throughout Hulks entire history . Analogously, Sun dipped superman is accepted as being much much stronger than non-sundipped superman but this does NOT mean he has a feat exponentially greater than anything non-sundipped superman has ever accomplished. Rather it refers to his considerable superiority , to a non-sun dipped superman as he is consistently portrayed. i.e the general superiority of sun dipped superman’s feats, capabilities and portrayal to the feats, capabilities, and portrayal of non-sundipped superman during regular/consistent portrayals. Consequently what is important here, are power levels surmised from the characters non-outlier feats as well as direct performance comparisons against similar opponents/obstacles.
Now the Hulk character is unique in that he has dynamic strength based on anger. Dynamic in Hulks case, refers to his ability to grow stronger with anger. Still, every Hulk save Grey Hulk starts off as a class 100 level character and then goes from there. Further, though dynamic in the aforementioned sense, a thorough reading of the Hulks collection of appearances reveals every Hulk had strength ranges and levels which they were consistently portrayed within during their history. Savage Hulk for instance had dynamic strength but ranged in the vast majority of his battles from Namor (submerged Namor) to Thor level as seen with his regular battles against Thor, Namor, Hyperion, Abomination, Wonderman, Blackbolt, etc. This was his typical and consistent range. Grey Hulk however despite having the exact same powerset (dynamic strength) and hence potential to be just as strong as Savage Hulk, was usually thing level to slightly above thing level and always notably weaker than Savage Hulk and his enemies. This is even noted by Abomination here: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...kisweaker-1.jpg
Merged/Professor Hulk was similar to savage Hulk strength wise save that he started off stronger and amped slower. WWH/Green Scar however was confirmed to be the angriest and therefore strongest incarnation of Hulk seen on panel prior to the World Breaker. The notion that Hulks dynamic strength means that on any given day he could be on any end of the totem pole strength wise and it thus serving as a means to explain away his low feats is absolutely false and out of line with his history. Hulk has always been portrayed as one of Marvels top bricks and his unique power set simply means that while he starts off incredibly strong (Class 100 level for all except Grey Hulk), he can keep getting stronger as the fight goes on. Feats like Hulk getting knocked out by the likes of Captain America and other instances in which he operates below his strength class (i.e below class 100 for Hulks who have that base level) are outlier low feats (which every character has) and should not be rationalized into his power set. Moreover, as seen in the above reference by abomination to Grey Hulk inferiority to Savage Hulk as well as the on panel references to WWH as the strongest Hulk version, an actual reading of the character reveals that it is not difficult to determine the relative strength levels of Hulks different incarnations in comparison to one another as such differences have been explicitly mentioned on panel. These strength levels in comparison to World Breaker Hulk’s are what I will debate here.
Now note that I am not at all suggesting that WBH is at least 10x stronger than savage Hulk would ever be capable of amping. Theoretically, given enough time and incentive, Savage Hulk could certainly amp to even above WBH levels since there is technically no limit to the Hulks potential strength. Any Hulk incarnation with the ability to amp could therefore potentially reach or even surpass WBH levels of strength . Thus in terms of relative strength comparisons between Hulk incarnations, there is a sort of sliding scale since each one has the ability to keep increasing their strength level albeit at different rates. What I am arguing for here is the significant superiority of WBH to any of the previous Hulks within the ranges they most regularly operated at.
The World Breaker incarnation of Hulk is one that is unperturbed by the high feat/low feat quandary faced by most characters because he was shown to operate a consistently high level throughout his limited amount appearances. Additionally it follows that previous low showings of Hulk cannot be used to denigrate this incarnation in any capacity. With that being established, I assert once more that it is abundantly clear from WBH feats that he is character intended to be exponentially stronger than all versions of Hulk before him (remember consistent portrayals and ranges not outlier feats). Now, there has obviously been a bit of overzealousness on the part of some Hulk fans who have suggested he is a skyfather level and what not and being such a polarizing character this has created a backlash of negative sentiment towards the character. Such silly claims are beyond the scope of this debate but I urge the judges to put aside such external influences and look at the argument and on panel evidence based on its individual merit. In doing so I am sure that the validity of my argument regarding the Hulk will be made clear. My claim is that there is a significant gap in strength between the WBH and previous versions. For the sake of clarity however, significant will refer to 10x and upwards. Although without actual writer quantifications, the exact strength gap between WBH and other Hulks incarnations may be difficult to determine; By comparing WBH feats and portrayals in similar situations to those of his previous incarnations, the gulf between them and the elevated level which WBH operates at will become obvious and validate the range of gap (10x) which I have posited within this thread. Ill start with and make extensive use of World War Hulk; known and confirmed on panel to be the strongest version of Hulk up until World Breaker came along. WWH is a Hulk who at base walked around at the upper levels of Savage Hulks typical range (i.e Thor/Sentry level). This was directly attributable to his higher consistent level of anger. Hence demonstrating the gap between WBH and WWH wil itself solidify the gap between WBH and weaker incarnations of Hulk on average/within their typical ranges. Now lets establish that WWH was indeed the strongest incarnation of Hulk .The evidence is nothing short of overwhelming.
And here despite Namor having done well and even been comparable to Hulk in the past here he believes fighting against Hulk in this state is futile, further indicating WWH’ superiority: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...inthisstate.jpg
This can be further solidified via common foe comparisons:
Here is Hulk vs Wendigo. Wendigo has notably been one of Savage Hulks tougher opponents. Not only has savage Hulk had prolonged fights with Wendigo in which narration described them as evenly matched, but Savage Hulk has actually suggested the notion that Wendigo may have been the strongest of his foes. Now Wendigo's power level do vary with hosts but against Hulk they have always been paritularly formidable. Further it would only make sense for the Wendigo Green Scar fought to be one he encountered before since it remebered him
Its is significant to point out that while Newjak may attempt to put forward the delusion that Savage Hulks strength level in this fight (and by extension all of his fights) was on a low level, that is patently false. As previously mentioned, Savage Hulk like other Hulk versions has dynamic strength but also had a strength range he fell into consistently. There is no reason to think there is any deviation from the norm here, and we can clearly see that Wolverine is portrayed as being unable to even pierce him (which could possibly have been rectonned to Hulk healing to fast for wolverine to see) which further indicates he is intended to be operating at an optimal level of physicality since Hulks durability/damage soak is directly related to his strength level.
When coupled with the fact that Hulk had already previously referenced Wendigo as possibly his strongest opponent it becomes clear that Savage Hulk was at the higher levels of his typical range during these encounters
So Rulk has Green Scar literally smile at his blows to the face, Tries to drain all Green Scars energy (which worked on Savage Hulk btw) and fails, but uses the energy absorbed to amp for one final double fisted smash and which then gets easily brushed off as well, and then gets laid out by a thunderclap.
Thus the difference in the consistent strength levels and ranges of Savage Hulk and WWH whether from outright statements or direct performance comparisons is abundantly clear. To deny it would take a complete disregard for character portrayal and authorial intention. Nonetheless, the enormity of the gap between WBH and WWH is even more evident in the comparison between WBH and WWH to anyone who chooses to read without the hindrance of preconceived notions or obstacles posed by certain predispositions. Now lets examine that gap:
Subsequently,taking into consideration the context of the arc, the Hulks characterization, and respective power levels, WBH footstep threatening a continent is a blatant indicator of the exponential gulf that exists between he and the strongest Hulk that existed prior to his arrival; WWH.
In spite of already demonstrating the marked the strength gap between WBH and WWH, there is one pertinent fact that I left out: WBH at the levels I just showed despite the enormity of the gap was HOLDING BACK. Indeed, in the appearances of WBH prior to the infamous Heart of the monster arc, WBH was holding back. Here it is confirmed on panel: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...holdingback.jpg
So yes, a holding back WBH was thus far more powerful than WWH and Savage/Merged Hulk before him. Now despite already having painstakingly shown the significant strength differential between WWH
and WBH even while holding back (which itself definitely far exceeds the 10x threshold established in this thread), i think is necessary to examine how large this strength gap truly is and hence look at a fully unleashed WorldBreaker: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...rkDimension.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...kDimension2.jpg
Above we have Hulk and Betty (red she hulk) in the Dark Dimension colliding in midair and having the shockwaves from their blows annihilate Wendigo, Amrcheddon, Bi-Beast, an army of mindless ones that even Umar couldn’t cope with, the Dark dimension planet, and damage a nearby moon.
So that the gravity of this feat is not lost on some (it really shouldnt be) I will break it down. It is enormously impressive on two fronts namely the characters destroyed as side-effects and the overall damage done. Now while this incident has unfortunately been used by overly zealous Hulk fans to suggest he is skyfather level and what not, the attempts at denigrating it have been downright laughable (from superimposing particle accelerator physics, to suggesting it was an energy projection feat etc). Looking at it in depthly and based on its merit, it absolutely solidifies the proposed strength gap between WBH and previous Hulk incarnations that I have posited. I will start with its effects on the planet. Firstly being able to directly destroy a planet via punches is impressive for virtually any top tier within Marvel and would easily fall within most of their upper tier/outlier range. However this feat is so much more than that. It diverges greatly from merely planet busting as in this scenario a planet was destroyed as a residual effect of their physical blows that occurred far above the ground. The initial transference of kinetic energy and force (impact point) occurs between She Hulk and Hulk in midair. This is noteworthy because as a point of fact, as shockwaves from physical collisions travel further and further away from the impact point, they lose energy exponentially Moreover the greater the area of outward radiation, the weaker the shockwave becomes. Intuitively and on a much lesser scale, this is similar to the difference between being able to knock someone out by punching them in the face, and being able to knock out that same person by punching their relative 10 feet away. Even using this small scale example, the second scenario requires orders of magnitutde greater striking power/strength. Accurately applying these principles to Hulk and Bettys feat highlights how much greater than mere planet busting it is, as the edge (outermost part) of the shockwave generated from a physical clash far above the ground acting on the entire planet (which necessitates an ENORMOUS area of outward radiation) would contain astronomically less (we are talking several, several, several orders of magnitude less) kinetic energy than the initial impact point. The fact that a nearby moon was also damaged only emphasizes this more as going by the inverse square law the amount of kinetic energy acting upon the moon would be inversely proportional to the square of the distance between it (the moon) and the source of the impact. i.e only an infinitesimal amount of KE from the actual impact would even be acting upon the moon in the first place, which further stresses how impressive this feat is. Now it is not lost on me that this is a shared feat. However, in this scenario, we are dealing with mammoth geometric differences in impressiveness compared to mere planet busting and thus even providing half of the force required for such a feat is ridiculously higher than mere planet busting.
The second and more significant part of this feat to my case however, is the annihilation of multiple of Hulks previous foes as side-effects of his and Bettys blows. The fact that these characters were annihilated (literally turned to dust) provides a basis for a direct comparison of Hulk respective performances against them even in his WWH incarnation and further displays the enormity of the strength gap between WBH and any other incarnation of Hulk. I have already stressed the strength differential between WWH and Savage Hulk/Prof Hulk and highlighted their drastically different performances against Wendigo. Nonetheless, even WWH’s trouncing of Wendigo pales in comparison to WBH treatment of him. Here we have Green Scar/WWH bringing Wendigo to his knees with one punch: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...ithonepunch.jpg
As seen previously, when WBH goes all out, Armcheddon is unable to even exist on the same planet (gets annihlated from the residual shockwave from mid air clash) let alone get into a direct confrontation and take multiple punches. This again establishes the marked and high exponential increase between WBH and and WWH as we saw on panel.
Frankly, the evidence for the enormous gap between WBH and all other Hulk incarnations is virtually on every page of the issues he appears in.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
The final group of characters destroyed that I will analyze are the mindless ones. Mindless ones have traditionally been portrayed as near indestructible creatures that are Dormammu’s enemies in the Dark Dimension. Admittedly the mindless ones have had varying levels of formidability under different writers and thus have some low showings during their long history (with some writers turning them into fodder joke characters smh) .However when within the Dark dimension specifically they have been historically portrayed as physically very powerful foes Dormammu/Umar are unable to defeat head on with them rather having to resort setting up a protective barrier to prevent their dimension from being overrun. Taking on the entire army of mndless ones has historically been enough to drain even Dormammus power: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...dlessones-1.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...dlessones-1.jpg
They have additionally been able to bring down the likes of Loki: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...edownLoki-2.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...downLoki2-2.jpg
More specifically, against Hulk they always been displayed as tireless physical powerhouses: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...helmingHulk.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...elmingHulk1.jpg
Now even most recently prior to their appearance in the heart of the monster storyline, the mindless ones appeared as their classic nigh indestructible selves in Nova’s ongoing series with Nova prime and the rest of the centurions being unable to harm them in the slightest: (please log in to view the image)
They were even put to work inside Neutron Stars because of how tough they are physically which is ridiculously impressive: (please log in to view the image)
Most pertinently, within the HOTM arc they were specifically noted as being too powerful in conjunction for even Umar to handle (she actually wouldnt even survive): http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...rvivethem-1.jpg
Which thus establishes that they were operating at their normal and traditional levels of formidability. This fact perfectly emphasizes the impressiveness of this feat and strength level Hulk was operating at both outrightly and relative to other Hulks as despite already trouncing previous Hulks, being tough enough to work in Neutron Stars, unharmable by the nova corps, and formidable enough to overwhelm the likes of Dormammu and Umar, (indisputably confirmed on panel), they were wiped out as a result of the residual shockwave from Hulk and Bettys clash of blows that literally happened miles away from them (remember that unlike Wendigo, Bi Beast, and Armcheddon mindless ones were not even in the same area of the Dark dimension when the Hulk jumped to attack Betty as Umar had teleported everybody away from the barrier)
The preponderance of evidence is utterly overwhelming. From common foe comparisons, to actual feat impressiveness, to simple portrayal: it is clear that the authorial intention for this character was for him to be significantly stronger than any Hulk prior to his arrival and Pak consistently demonstrated this on panel. Attempted attenuation of this overtly clear fact is largely rooted in biased predispositions and falls flat in the face of logical scrutiny. By taking into account feats, portrayal and most importantly direct performance comparisons, the evidence for WBH being several orders of magnitude stronger let alone 10x stronger than WWH and any previous Hulk versions have been consistently portrayed, is indisputable. It is cumulative and takes into account the principal features needed in the interpretation of comic book texts as well as assessment of relative strength levels. No counter argument against this overriding evidence will be able to claim the same as it will have to ignore one or most likely all of these key components to retain any form of coherence. The evidence is barefaced and my assertion has been substantiated. The decision is easy. Case closed.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Oh look he used Case Closed at the end of his post. Wow however shall I cope with that lol.
So before we start getting into the bulk of Naij’s posts, judges I just want to point out something. This is a debate to determine whether WBH is at least 10 times stronger than any previous version of Hulk. It is not a debate to determine whether Naij thinks WBH is consistently stronger than what HE FEELS Hulk’s previous consistent levels are. By his own admission he has already stated that he feels the ‘greatest strength feat in all of comicdom’ belongs to a previous version of Hulk. He also stated he feels previous versions of Hulk could in fact reach WBH Hulk levels under their own power.
I’ll reiterate the above, I want it to sink into the mind of the Judges, in a debate to determine whether previous incarnations of Hulk can be as strong as WBH, Naij has already admitted previous versions can reach that level, and that one of them by his own admission has performed a feat he feels is better than WBH’s best feat.
Now he has tried to reason the above away by starting to go on a tangent of outlier feats and consistent levels of strength for a character designed to be inconsistent and perform in widely different levels of strength. As well as talk about author intent. I will discuss these issues later, but this debate is pretty much already over. He has already stated he feels the feats done by WBH are not out of reach of previous versions. Naij hiding behind consistent levels of range for the character and author intent shouldn’t downplay that fact. Judges he will come in here and try to continue to hammer home his idea. He’ll cry wolf and say if you just logically follow what he is saying you’ll see why he is right to think the way he does. He’ll also probably throw around the words Atrocious/Fail/Idiotic Argument towards my statements. Trust me I understand what he is trying to do, and he is doing it because he has no other option but to do it that way. If he doesn’t then he loses please remember that.
As stated before I’ll go into more detail later on why his notions of consistent ranges are themselves flawed, but once again no matter what happens from here on out, he already stated he feels previous versions of Hulk can be just as strong as WBH and some have feats that are already better.
I know I’ve spent basically an entire post just on this topic but I really want to hammer this part home with the judges. He’s already lost by his own admission.
Now that we’ve covered the basis of why Naij should pretty much lose this debate by default based on his own admissions let’s actually start to look at some of his other arguments, and in general his way of thinking of things. Now I do want to note that mostly I will be using Savage Hulk to showcase these arguments, with Mindless Hulk/Professor Hulk thrown around to. Grey Hulk is the one Hulk that is pretty consistent with one feat that pushes it. One feat that is hugely debatable on how much Grey Hulk actually contributed to it (Most people would say hardly anything) so I won’t be using him.
First I want to go over Naij’s notion of outlier feats and consistent levels with the Hulk himself.
Now there is one thing I do agree with him on, that most of the time we can figure out what general tier a character falls in. Thor is high level, Namor is mid level, and Abomination is low level. The problem with the Hulk is that at any given time he can be on any one of those levels. The only way to know for sure what he is operating at is by the opponents he is fighting and by the feats he accomplished in the fight. Anything else is pure speculation.
Naij feels that Hulk particularly Savage Hulk is Namor – Thor level and that is his consistent levels.
Now let’s look at how Hulks supposedly fairs in this consistent range Naij has picked for Hulk.
The main point here is that even within Naij’s self proclaimed level of consistency for Savage Hulk, he is all over the place going from below it to just above it based on canon comics.
Of course let’s just address the even bigger flaw here in that the range Naij has picked itself contains a wide gap.
Let’s get something clear and out of the way Thor and Namor aren’t that close. In fact Thor can KO Namor in one blow in the rain which about as close to being submerged as you can get: http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...3Invaders33.jpg
Based on feats Thor is way and overtly stronger than Namor’s biggest dreams.
For instance does anyone here think Namor could even come close to replicating Thor’s Midgard Serpent feat? I would hope not. So we have Hulk losing to Namor twice and Hulk apparently beating Thor.
Of course Naija would just contribute that to outlier feats which I’ll get to later.
The next thing I want to talk about when it comes to Hulk’s ‘consistent ranges’ of power is that Naij uses it as a way to gauge how much stronger WBH is then previous incarnations of Hulk based on characters they have both fought. He has used the argument if Hulk struggled with such and such character and WWH or WBH effortlessly fought them then that should prove how much stronger they are than previous versions of Hulk. This falls back into the thinking that every previous version of Hulk falls into one nice neat little power range package to compare them with.
What’s more telling though is how these enemies of Hulk actually fair against each other.
For instance this is how Bi-Beast fairs against Thor(Unfortunately I was unable to find the scan but we all know when Thor got remotely serious he decked Bi_Beast in one blow)
Here Abom is again getting handled by Hercules this time(After boasting about how he beat the Hulk and therefore he should be able to trounce Hercules):
[urlhttp://img373.imageshack.us/img373/7485/picture10909fq.jpg][/url]
Rulk was someone Naij was leaning very heavy on in his posts so I’m going to take some extra time to break him down for you guys. Naij claims that Rulk manhandled Hulk and then in turn was manhandled by WWH as a means to show the vast strength difference between the two. Nevermind the fact that the Rulk Savage Hulk fought was at an unspecified level of power thanks to his draining abilities which could have aided him in also draining Hulk, but let’s look at how Rulk fairs against others.
If that’s not convincing enough for you we all know how he got destroyed by Worthy Thing/Angrir. Thor dealt with that guy in one attack when he wanted to.
Like I said Rulk was a character Naij was leaning heavily on to showcase the difference in power. Rulk was easily beaten by people Naij considers to be the upper range for Hulk. The previous example undermines his idea that you can use a so called average to define power differences in Hulk based on mutual people they have fought. This is of course showing how bad it is to try and use ABC logic with Hulk to prove one version is stronger than another. Just because Hulk struggled with a character and WWH destroyed said character does not equate to WWH being drastically stronger than Savage Hulk. The same goes for WBH as well.
I could keep going with this, showing Hercules doing feats that Namor couldn't, Wonder Man beating Namor and then admitting Thor is his superior. That kind of thing but,
I think that pretty much sums up Hulk’s CONSISTENT LEVELS of PORTRAYAL and CLOSENESS OF POWER, and shows them for what they are, non-existent.
__________________ sig by Rao Kal El
Last edited by Newjak on Apr 28th, 2012 at 04:29 PM
Now one of the other big things Naij mentioned was this idea of outlier feats. Now don’t get me wrong the idea of outlier feats is a long established idea with comic book characters. The idea that sometimes a character will operate extremely below or above their weight class is well documented with cases like Firelord and Spiderman being one of the prime examples.
Now there is something we need to understand about feats that go completely out side of a character’s normal range. That being that determining an outlier feat isn’t always as easy as someone like Naij would have you believe. A number of characters have weaknesses like Namor and heat, also a number of heroes hold back a lot because they won’t use their full power especially when you get into the Herald level beings like Thor, Superman.
The main point above being that it is hard to actually determine whether something is an outlier feat unless it is drastically out of the character’s power level. That is the case for characters that actually have a very defined level of power, which the Hulk really doesn't.
Once again though outlier feats have their place but generally you won’t call something completely beyond a character or below them unless they are drastically out of the norm. By norm I don’t just mean what a character normally shows, but what we know a character is capable of doing. For instance we know Namor is fairly strong so as long as he is hydrated we know it is a low showing for him to struggle lifting a car. The flip side being we also know that Namor is not capable of planetary level strength feats, that’s why he is mid tier, so Namor doing something like that out of the blue raises eyebrows. You wouldn’t do the same with Thor. We know he is capable of planetary level feats that is why he is high tier in strength.
Now Hulk is a special case because as already mentioned and demonstrated above his dynamic nature makes it even harder to describe something to him as an outlier feat. For instance being koed by Cap is not a low showing if he was at a lower end therefore it’s not PIS for Cap to be able to do that. Cap is more than capable of knocking out low class 100s. Nor is it outlier for Hulk to do something extremely powerful considering what a high end strength character like Thor/BRB/Gladiator can do, and most people agree Hulk is stronger than them slightly.
Even if 90% of Hulk’s appearances place him somewhere between Namor and Thor level it doesn’t matter. All it takes is the fact he can be logically less powerful than that at any given time, unlike Thor who is always supposed to be in the high end, to explain away his lower end feats without them being PIS. It doesn’t matter how consistent Hulk is put into one level we know he can exist at lower levels based on his various appearances and varying level of foes that give him a fight.
It's as simple as that, Hulk is made to be a character who can exist on different levels of power and being able to attain high end strength level like a Thor/Superman gives you a lot of leeway to do crazy feats cause it happens all the time at that level.
Now I’ll be going into the notion of author intent. I don’t make any claims of saying that Pak doesn’t have a boner for anything Hulk related, or that it wasn’t his intent to place Hulk on a higher level than normal. I’m more than willing to buy that. Of course if we simply took author intent at normal we wouldn’t have things like hyperbole, or PIS. Just because an author intended something to be a certain way doesn’t mean they executed it in a fashion that would showcase that, or in a way we should believe.
Naija went on an extremely long winded rant of trying to show WWH as being this super Hulk above the likes of Normal Hulk. Mostly he does this through Hyperbolic statements of saying that WWH was the angriest therefore the strongest he has ever been. Itself often a bad base for making strong claims in vs forums, considering every character he mentioned would have had to see every specific instance of Hulk appearing to say the claim this is for the sure the angriest he’s ever been.
Naija also tried to show a couple of fights between similar people to try and showcase this. I’ve already shown why that just isn’t a good idea, but just in case you need to see it some more.
I would say Savage actually came out looking way better than WWH in his first fight Juggernaut. Cain had him on the ground about to break his neck and Savage Hulk managed to get him into the fair and spin him around and at least he was able to throw him away.
The main point is this, just because someone wants to have a hard on for a character does not mean they are actually doing said character justice or as well as they think they are. Pak wanted a stronger Hulk fine but based on the nonsense that was WWH and the distinct lack of actual high end characters to face it was a wasted effort.
I mean you got to ask yourseves this; did at anytime WWH do anything that was beyond what Savage Hulk could have done. No he didn’t. I mean beating Namor soundly is good and all but any high end Hulk, savage included, should be able to do that based on just the fact they would be on a whole other level. Just like how Thor can easily beat Namor when he wants to.
Now you might ask yourself why I would bring up WWH being roughly Savage Hulk level when the main point is trying to prove that WBH is not much stronger than previous incarnations. The same reasoning also applies to WWH and WBH. He shows scans of WWH stomping the ground and not causing nearly the same damage as when he is in WBH mode.
I can’t believe Naija actually tried to sit here and down play WWH power level based on the collateral damage of stomps. I mean let’s actually use logic here. Let’s say if you have enough power to destroy a planet, or in WWH’s case enough power to keep a planet twice the size of Earth from breaking apart.
Even if that was his max level power if he can exert enough pull to keep a planet from splitting then he can exert a stomp that will break the East Cost off without much problem when you consider how little and insignificant that little land mass is compared to something twice the size of Earth.
Now he also tries to use how he fairs about Wendigo/Bi-Beast/Armageddon. I’ve once again already shown why trying to use how well previous versions of Hulk fared against villains as a measuring stick is in itself simply not good.
Anyways he tries to go on this long winded speech of how Wendigo was one of his toughest opponents, well I’ve already shown Namor knocking Hulk so apparently Namor was the strongest foe Hulk ever faced, no wait he wasn’t. The same goes for Bi-Beast, Thor KOing him fairly easily he wanted to. Even at a thousand times power, I would like to make note they didn’t appear that big in the WBH feat, do you still think they even begin to approach actual herald level strength. Based on their performance and how they handled the battle I wouldn’t think so. So what’s more likely that they were always beastly strong or did they finally just meet a higher end Hulk for the first time. Based on past appearances of these characters, and how they were doing during the HOTM I would say the later is true.
And for Armageddon… where to start. He beat Silver Surfer by managing to use his own power against him. It wouldn’t be the first time Surfer lost to a weak person in a manner such as that. As for the Merged Hulk thing I've already stated numerous times that is not a good way to go about judging a character. That feat is not a good gauge to say all of a sudden he is a herald level buster when it's pretty obvious he was using a plot device to attain it.
So judges you’ve gotta ask yourself this did WWH and WBH really fight 3 herald level beings, or did Pak just throw in a bunch of cannon fodder people to try and make the fight more impressive then what it was? Once again just because it was author intention doesn’t mean what happened in the comic indicated that to be the case. I would think the later is true and is often the case in these types of comics.
But let’s be honest here, everything up to this point a normal High Hulk like Savage or Mindless would have been able to do, and high herald strength character would have been able to do it. I think almost everyone here understands anyone with planetary level strength would have done just as well as WWH/WBH did. The real reason this discussion is taking place is because of the WBH big feat in HOTM.
I’m not going to sit here and bullshit you and state that it wasn’t impressive. It was very impressive and among some of Hulk’s best work, but is it really the rage orgasm that Naija wants you to believe, can Savage/Mindless Hulk/WWH really not be able to do it?
The thing is as already pointed out by Naija is that it was a shared feat between WBH and Betty. So he only supplied half the power for the feat. So the real question you’ve got to ask yourself is this, was half the WBH feat really ten times stronger than what any previous version of the Hulk can do? Naij already admitted he believed previous Hulk characters have better feats and can be just as strong, but let’s say you believe that Savage Hulk is at best slightly above Thor level. Would you still answer yes to the above statement? I would hope not based on what we know Thor level strength characters can do.
But just in case let’s actually break down what was the most impressive parts of the feat were. I would say it was the Mindless Ones and the collateral damage. Now Naija wants you convinced that these Mindless Ones were Neutron Star working, indestructible badasses. I find it funny because Naija asks you the judges to act without bias because of Hulk fans blowing feats out of proportion to make it sound like Hulk is some Skyfather level power. Yet he is trying to convey to you that Hulk performed a feat that only Umar couldn’t do but her Brother, you know the Dread One, also couldn’t do. He’s trying to tell you it’s logically stupid to think of Hulk as a Skyfather while trying to state he possibly did something that a close to Skyfather being couldn’t do. I'm going to ask you to do the samething Naija did and not let bias or a lot of glamour thrown at you. What's more likey the picture Naija painted for you or the fact that these Mindless Ones were going under the hand Ninja treatment.
You know what’s more telling about the feat isn’t who died but who survived, Umar survived it despite being in the same vicinity as everyone else. She may have shielded herself yes but at the same time she didn’t even seem to care about the attack afterwards, and it's not uncommon for high end magic users to often use those powers even if the attack wasn't a threat. To me that is more telling of the feat's power level then Pak throwing in a bunch people to make it look cooler. So based on that I would say they were more Ninja Fodder than being in badass super Herald Army mode.
The point is when an established power was threatened by the shockwave it did nothing to her, and that was with the combined power of Betty and WBH.
The next impressive thing about it is that it covered a large distance, but Naij wants you to believe it more impressive than if someone directly hit the planet. I ask you though judges if two planetary level attacks hit each other only a few miles away from a planet what do you think is going to happen to that planet? Do you honestly feel that the planet is going to be ok? No it wouldn’t that power/force/energy has to go somewhere. And being a few miles away it seems to me a planet would suffer roughly what happened to it in those scans. Now Najia will try and argue that it's much more impressive because it didn't hit the planet he will claim that it just isn't the same. Let's be real here though. He'll say the shock wave wouldn't be the same as if the blow was directly released on the planet. Now some of that might be true, but we aren't just dealing with people that a wreck a building colliding. We are dealing with straight up planet wrecking punches. It's asinine to think that wouldn't be enough to trigger the events that took place. Think about the level of power that kind of things takes amplify it by 2 and it's only taking place a few miles away. Let's be real here you don't need to 1000s of times stronger than planet wrecking punches to do that, nor do you need to be ten times as strong to do that.
I think if you lined up BRB and Thor, or Superman and Captain Marvel , or two High end Savage Hulks and had them do the same thing, based on feats, they would be able to roughly do the same thing. Based on the fact they are capable of planetary level strength. Definitely not less than ten times the amount of force. Naija will probably try and post a lot of scans of him showing these characters releasing their fiercest blows but not doing the same damage. You've gotta remember though most of these characters are doing a shared feat, and most of the time it is taking place in areas where if the writers actually wrote what releasing that kind of power would do Earth would be gone, or other heroes would be dead.
But even if you feel they would be able to generate half of the force displayed that would make WBH no more than twice as strong as them. If you feel they would only able to produce a fourth of what happened that would make WBH 4 times as strong as them. And you've got to think that of it in that terms. If they could only do half of that then
So let me sum this up for the judges, like most Hulk fans Naija just wanted to blow this feat out of proportion. He wants to show this gap with flawed ideas. He wants you to believe that WBH is exponentially stronger than previous versions of Hulk mostly based on one feat. One feat that he doesn’t claim to be the best Hulk feat out there. A feat that might have been trying to convey that but it didn’t. A feat that he tried to expand and make it seem better by using bullshit notions of shared villains and using that to make it seem like he busted up 3 heralds and army of herald level beings. this is flawed logic with the Hulk.
We’ve seen this many times before where an author tries to make X character look crazy good but it’s not really as good when compared to the whole body work of character X and other characters in that range. I ask you judges not to fall into that pit trap of thinking that this feat somehow showed WBH to be more than ten times stronger than any previous version of Hulk.
I would say something stupidly witty here (like Case Closed) normally but I don't think I need to at this point. The logic he used to get to this notion is flawed and most of it wouldn't hold up with other characters. Especially in the case of Hulk.
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Appealing to judges instead of providing substantive rebuttals will not get you anywhere and this tactic is transparent. As for these responses. You have got to be kidding me. Still let me get in to all the flaws in these posts beginning with his first one.
Firstly its is necessary to lay out the meaning of the terms being used because it is clear that Newjak as trying to engage in major obfuscation as his only method of winning. In terms of relative character comparisons, ONE character being stronger or MORE POWERFUL than another character is always based off of the totality of their portrayals and hence their regular/most consistent levels. It is why there is across the board recognition for feats diverging from this general patternnamely outliers both high and low. This is also why we have terms like highballing and lowballing. Hence consistent levels are always the most relevant when comparing specific characteristics (strength, power level, speed etc) of different characters as obvious outliers that are particularly divergent from a characters history (whether high or low) make for a narrow and selective usage of the characters history in order to push disengenuous agendas. It is important to realize here that we are discussing characters not isolated instances. That necessitates a comprehensive examination of the bulk of a characters portrayals and feats in order to come to a determination about one of his/her specific characteristics ( in this case strength). What Newjak is trying to do is shift this from being a substantive and exhaustive comparison between the strength of WBH and all of Hulks previous versions given the totality of their histories to a competition of who has the highest outliers. He is unashamedly attempting to high ball the hell out of other Hulk versions in an attempt to disprove the posited strength gap. Unfortunately by definition outliers are NOT a good representation of a characters capabilities. I am sure judges that upon thinking of mindless Hulk you do not place him at infinite dimension wrecking strength. And yet if Newjak truly does want to use this feat to justify his claim that WBH is NOT 10x stronger than Hulks previous versions, he would have to not only claim that WBH is not 10x stronger than mindless, but that mindless Hulk as a general rule is infinitely stronger than WBH and a whole host of characters since he wants to use this feat though divergent and out of line with the rest of his portrayals to make a determination about the strength of the character. Hence Newjack has revealed that he DOES NOT want to discuss CHARACTERS at all. He wants to compare isolated incidents and seeks to eliminate portrayal, authorial intent, and consistency from the discussion (the fundamentals of comic character development) and yet still claim this is a comparison of characters. At best this is silly, at worst this is deliberate high balling in order to push a transparent agenda and demean a character at the expense of common sense.
Note again Newjaks transparent use of the shifting the goal post fallacy. He backhandedly implies that this debate is concerned with WBH feats being or not being within the reach of his previous versions. Hence me readily admitting that means the debate is over. Unfortunately the truth is that I readily admitted that in order to pre-emptively expose his failure to distinguish between the two points of analysis and thus make his current attempt to shift the goal post even more obvious. This isnt even an innovative use of the fallacy in question on his part, as this debate has absolutely nothing to do with whether these feats are theoretically out of the reach of Hulks previous versions or not but rather is a relative comparison of the specific character traits of the different Hulk incarnations as seen throughout the totality of their histories. I want to make it clear that the Hulk was NOT designed to be inconsistent, he was designed to be dynamic (grow stronger with anger) and in the case of Hulk, their is a clear difference between the two. Dynamic as previously explained necessitates that he grows stronger with anger and thus is able to elevate based on his anger. That dynamic strength started off from particular base range and grew from there. Savage Hulk for instance regularly ranged between a midlevel and high level class 100 character since those were the strength levels of the bulk of his foes The character Savage Hulk thus consistently fell into that RANGE. Him not having static strength is therefore a representation of his dynamism NOT his inconsistency as a pattern of consistency can be observed when examining his strength range
Note again his reuse of the moving the goal post fallacy in attempt to make this debate about the potential reachable strength levels of Hullks previous versions as well as more appeals to ridiculous outliers (mindless hulk sending concussive force through an infinite number of dimensions). lol
Not even close. Claims of victory will not stand in the place of substantive arguments im afraid
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Last edited by Naija boy on Apr 28th, 2012 at 05:44 PM
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Ill address this silliness now. Ironically despite Newjak talking about the falsity of Savage Hulk being portrayed consistently within a given strength range, all he does with his scans is re-enforce this range. This though is the problem with scan hunting as opposed to actually substantively reading up on a character. I asserted based on my extensive review of Savage Hulks history that he regularly fell into the range of Namor-Thor level. Now Newjak has attempted to counter with scans supposedly showing the opposite but looking at the scans clearly displays nothing of the sort.
In his first set of scans he shows Hulks encounters with Namor. In the first scan Namor defeats Hulk by using his whirlpool to "drain the Hulk strength" This in no way at all shows that Hulk was somehow operating at a weaker strength level than Namor or was in some shape or form below that strength level and range. Conversely the fact that in that comic Namor resorted to DRAINING the Hulks strength as opposed to straight up overpowering him really contradicts what Newjak is trying to suggest happened in this incident. Then in the second set of scans we literally see Hulk and Namor charge into each other collide and thenBOTH GO FLYING DAZED AND DISORIENTED with Namor only recovering because he was underwater and thus able to replenish his strength. This in no way shows Hulk operating at a lower level than Namor and quite frankly shows them operating on the SAME level with Namor recovering first due to the beneficial environment.
Here we have another incident of where Newjack replaces actual comic reading with isolated scan hunting. He attempts to use these scans to display Hulk operating outside the consistent range i have posited but only succeeds in showing either his carelessness in his already inadvisable scan hunting or his deliberate attempt to manipulate context. Note judges that Newjak is attempting to use these two sets of scans to show the invalidity of the Namor-Thor range by implying that while in the first scan Hulk is operating on Thors level, in the second scan he is operating at a different level as he seemingly disposes of him in short order. What Newjack fails to show however are the three preceding scenes in the battle between Hulk and Thor: http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l...tleBegin015.jpg http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l...tleBegin016.jpg http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l...tleBegin017.jpg http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l...tleBegin018.jpg
There is the whole fight and looking at it makes it abundantly clear that Hulk is operating at well within the consistent range of strength I have advocated as he is going back and forth with Thor with Thor getting the better of him and then his Dynamic strength giving him the edge as it pushes him to the upper levels of the aforementioned range. He is certainly NOT all over the place as he is not operating at levels beyond the range but within levels it and Newjacks scans have merely re-enforced its validity. Talk about self defeating.
Furthermore, Newjacks characterization of Abomination as low level is also particularly false but ill get to that in the next post
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Last edited by Naija boy on Apr 28th, 2012 at 06:26 PM
i could settle this argument in a 140 character twitter-like post.
the main issue is being overlooked, and the revelation of that issue deflates any real doubt imo.
As seen, Savage Hulk is clearly portrayed as superior to such low level bricks, easily shrugging off rhinos blows ( describing them as flyswatter blows), brushing off an explosion that almost killed rhino, and despite being explicitly mentioned as NOT being mad still physically above him as hulk casually backhands him down. This case is representative of Savage Hulks history i.e He starts of notably stronger than low level bricks, is on par with mid-tier bricks (ala Namor) but can elevate to match top tier bricks like Thor (and beyond due to his limitless potential). Ironically even Newjacks scans re-enforce this.
More silliness. Relevant direct performance comparisons against a common point of reference when given proper context are the best methods of determining a strength or powerlevel increase concerning a specific character. Newjack however wants us to believe that the battles of Hulks foes aganst one another are more important. The obvious question then is How the hell can the performances of the Hulks foes against one another and not against Hulks different incarnations be more pertinent when it is Hulk's relative strength level and not theirs thats being discussed? . This is glaring non-sequitur reasoning (does not logically follow at all) and cannot even claim tangential relevance. All that Thors battle with Bi beast (which was actually a prolonged battle and who was actually not even in my analysis) shows is that Bi beast is not on Thors level and thus at the upper levels of Savage Hulks usual range which i never claimed he was. It does not at all disprove the existence of such a range. In addition to the issue of irrelevance, the Bi beast that WWH fought was enormously amped and hence much stronger and more powerful than he was in his encounter with Thor which means that the two scenarious are not even analogous.
The same issue of irrelevance applies to his referencing of Abominations battles with other characters with the added fact that he had previously classified abomination as a "low level" brick in comparison to Namor as "mid level" and to Thor who was a top tier brick. The truth is however that abomination is NOT a low level brick at all as he has giving as good as he got from the likes of Classic wonderman and ironically has physically overwhelmed Namor himself underwater who Newjack placed a full tier above him: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...nderwater-1.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...nderwater-2.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...nderwater-1.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...derwater4-1.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...derwater5-1.jpg http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...derwater6-1.jpg
Consequently, it is abundantly clear that abomination is NOT a low level brick but is at least firmly within the same middle tier that Namor is in. This further solidifies the validity of the Savage Hulks mid-tier to top tier range as Abomination is perhaps Hulks most frequent opponent and his battles with Savage Hulk are typified by them being evenly matched to start with and then with Hulk growing stronger as the fights go on.
Wait what? Rulk was at an "unspecified" level of power due to his draining abilities? That literally doesnt even mean anything. Moreover the battle between Rulk and Savage Hulk I referenced involved NO draining and was a case of Rulk straight up physically overpowering Savage Hulk so please stop attempting to mislead the judges with your meaningless equivocation. If anything it was against WWH that Rulk actually amped himself off of WWH energies and still got thrashed. How Rulk fairs against others (not Hulk incarnations) is again irrelevant in determining the validity of Savage Hulks usual range as well as the relative strength levels of different Hulk incarnations. Not only that but your presentation of even those already irrelevant fights is also particularly misleading and is not done in their proper context so lets get to that.
Now in this fight despite what Newjack would have you believe, this was not regular Thor but was Thor with the Odinforce that was fighting Rulk. Thus this version of Thor was considerably more powerful than a regular Thor having tanked the destroyer beam which had previously oneshot killed classic Thor. He further tanked a blow from Bor that by his own admission would have killed him if he did not have the Odinforce. Thus attempting to bring him up at all to denigrate my arguments (even in the illogical and roundabout way Newjack is doing it) is rather disengenuous.
As an aside, judges and Newjack, note that in order to indicate the powerlevel increase of Thor with the Odinforce in relation to his previous self, the writers utilized his direct performances against common points of reference in the form of the destroyer as well as Bor. I doubt even Newjack would dispute that Thor with the Odinforce was more powerful than regular Thor as it was shown in portrayal, authorial intent and common encounters. And yet this is the same scenario with WWHulk except that WWHulk hasquantitatively and qualitatively better direct performance comparisons more blatant displays of authorial intent and was more obviously portrayed as being stronger than previous incarnations. WWHulk also has the added benefit of the strength increase being flatout stated a multitude of times.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Last edited by Naija boy on May 3rd, 2012 at 10:02 AM
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Continued:
Categorically false. Rulk was not easily beaten by people I considered in the upper range of Savage Hulk as Odinforce Thor is NOT in that range. Additionally even if it was classic thor (which it isnt) all it would show is that Rulk is NOT on classic Thors level and hence not in the upper part of that range. It wouldnt at all disprove the validity of the existence of that range itself. The same goes for if you had decided to foolishly post scans of Hercules performing feats Namor couldnt or Wonderman beating Namor or what have you. Your examples dont undermine anything as they are completely misplaced and misrepresented. You havent proved anything to be non-existent and putting it in caps will get you nowhere. The closeness in power argument as mentioned before is a clear strawman.
It is readily apparent that Savage Hulk consistently ranged from mid-tier to top tier level. Thus although dynamic by nature and different from other characters in a sense, he is NOT inconsistent in the sense of unpredictability (all over the place) since his consistency can be found at the range level. I readily admit that each version of Hulk because of their dynamic strength has equal strength potential . However we know that despite this equivalent potential, relative powerlevel comparisons have been made on panel between the different versions as I showed previously. Hence when making a relative powerlevel determination and taking into consideration the totality of the characters history with the character having such a dynamic attribute, it needs to be done at the range level, because that is where Hulks consistency lies as well as because of the aforementioned sliding scale that exists between Hulks different incarnations. Regarding WWH and WBH,, WWH regularly operated at above the the upper end of Savage Hulks usual range and was therefore based on consistent levels, the strongest version of Hulk prior to WBH (as confirmed on panel and as I have painstakingly displayed). WBH on his part was less a seperate incarnation of Hulk than he was a WWH who had stopped holding back (WBH mode is generally identified by his signature energy leak) For the sake of argument however he is generally considered a seperate incarnation of Hulk as I am doing here. WBH additionally differed from other versions of Hulk in that his strength seemed dependent on his holding back. Consequently within the "incarnation" he appeared both holding back and NOT holding back and it is his full powered non-holding back version that appeared in the Dark Dimension that I am using as a premise for this thread although even at his holding back levels he more than fulfills the 10x requirement. As is obvious by now, there is an exponential strength increase between WWH and WBH going all out and thus between WBH and the uppermost part of Savage Hulks consistent range.
Newjak attempts to characterize parts of my reasoning as "ABC" logic but if not already obvious, doing so brings to light how out sorts he is. As I mentioned before relevant direct performance comparisons w with the tenets of reasoned discourse. When given proper context are the best methods of determining a strength or powerlevel increase regarding a particular character. I explained the potency of this authorial tool with reference to the examples of Sundipped Superman and Odinforce Thor. Newjack attempts to perjoratively characterize this as "ABC logic" but that is a deliberately inaccurate description. "ABC logic" involves claims like: A beat B, B beat C, so A beats C, without taking into account the proper context, variables, and extenuating factors in those fights and characters which preclude them from being interchangeable. In sharp contrast what is being done here is an application of sound inductive reasoning in order to identify the cause the differing outcomes these fights (Rulk vs Savage Hulk as opposed to Rulk vs WWH for instance). It is in the form of Mills method of difference which necessitates that: If an instance in which the phenomenon under investigation occurs (WWH trouncing Savage Hulk), and an instance in which it does not occur (Hulk getting trounced by Rulk), have every circumstance in common save one (The increased strength level of WWH compared to Savage), that one occurring only in the former (WWH increased strength); the circumstance in which alone the two instances differ, is the effect, or the cause, or an indispensable part of the cause, of the phenomenon . Hence it is not only common sense wise and intuitively correct but is also formally logical to think that the largely divergent outcome in the WWH and WBH fights against common foes is caused by the differing strength levels between they and previous Hulk versions. The level of that strength increase can then be determined by examining the gulf in performance levels against the common point of reference as I have done.
Now onto his next post regarding outliers
Extenuating circumstances like weaknesses and holding back do NOT come into play in the outlier I have identified as superior to WBH feat (Mindless and Ironclad ravaging producing concussive force enough to fill countless dimensions) so while it is true in principle that these things need to be taken into account, it has no bearings here.
Once again, the principle is correct but in no way denigrates my claim of an outlier. Drastically out of the norm indeed means that it has to be out of line with what a character is usually capable of. The issue is a feat like Mindless Hulk and Ironclad ravaging dimensions IS indisputably [i]drastically and unbelievably out of the norm [i] unless you feel comfortable arguing that mindless Hulk and Iron clad operate at levels infinitely beyond what virtually any other brick (not just hulk incarnations) can muster and then throw away all their other appearances. Further while i know you would like to make it seem like i am talking about a planetary level feat. I am not. Its not even remotely comparable.
Being koed by cap would not necessarily be a low showing if accomplished through other means than pure strength such as pressure points (which seem to by pass durability) and whatnot. However if accomplished through pure strength (which i dont believe has ever been done anyway) it would necessitate cap (who is a at the VERY best a class 2-5) koing an at base midlevel (not low level) Class 100 character with his strength and would thus require Hulk to be operating at WELL below his base durability (Heck cap koing even a low level class 100 and or class 90 type character would be an outlier for him). Still the issue of low feats is even quite tangential to the entire discussion. Also your deliberate ambiguity in terms of Hulk doing things extremely powerful is transparent as Im not claiming that any time he does something extremely powerful it is an outlier, I am claiming that ravaging countless dimensions is an outlier based on mindless Hulk and Ironclads historyv(as well as Thor/BRB/glads etc) and this is indisputable.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Last edited by Naija boy on May 3rd, 2012 at 10:17 AM
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Continued:
There is an extent to which we know that Hulk CANNOT be logically less powerful than and that is below his base. Hence It is such potential incidents which ARE low feats because they are extremely isolated incidents involve Hulk (Savage hulk in this case) going below his consistent midtier base and (like in the case of the hypothetical captain america example I used) sometimes even below his status as a class 100 level character (such as being choked by a snake). Good thing that when such incidents occur they can be easily identified as outliers as they are in you words "drastically" out of line with norm. Hulk cannot logically exist at ends that low taking into account his character, powerset, and base strength in which he is still a class 100 brick. Thats all there is to it
Then to his next post:
Authorial intent is vital to any hermeneutical analysis and provides the most accurate lense for the interpretation of any form of literature. Concepts like hyperbole are included in authorial intent as it is a figure of speech deliberately used by the author to exxagerate and sensationalize a situation without the expectation that the claim is taken literally. Authorial intent is obviously not the only tool of interpretation and there are exceptions (which is why i have come up with an exhaustive cumulative analysis) but the fact remains that authors portray what they intend to portray more often than not. Pak did just that
Talk about delusion and denial. You cant be really trying to discredit 10+ references (and thats just because i didnt look for more) as hyperbole? Do you even know what that word means? . Not only does the writer re-iterate the sentiment through various of Hulks past foes, he also makes use of characters like Xavier, Reed Richards, and Dr Strange, who not only have had previous experience with Hulk andknow him extensively but also who whether scientifically, psionically, or magically had the means to actually determine his powerlevels/anger levels and came to that determination based off of these measurements. ADDITIONALLY, he has the Banner himself mention it as well. These references to it only underpin the obvious fact that Hulk should be angrier than he has ever been since he had just been done the greatest wrong he had ever experienced (having his wife and new kingdom and people seeemingly destroyed by those who had shipped him there in the first place). Thee fact that the best you can do is laughably characterize it as hyperbole really shows the extents you will go to to ignore clear on panel depictions..smh
Your attempt at showing why common reference points dont work was counter-intuitive, lacked common sense, and formally was just flat out wrong.
As for your comparison of the Savage Hulk vs juggernaut battles and WWH vs Juggernaut battles, your analysis of the fight is again tainted and grossly inaccurate. Savage Hulk actually got overpowered for a time during the battle, couldnt actually stop juggernaut, and got tired and weakened before rallying back at the end to toss juggernaut away (which was a BFR) WWH on the other managed to virtually stop the supposedly unstoppable juggernaut (or at least bring him to a near standstill), and after exchanging a few blows smartly BFred him (which is what Savage Hulk tried to do as well) since he he wasnt even interested in fighting juggernaut anyway and only wanted to get Xavier and leave. It is straight asinine to present this as savage Hulk looking way better against Juggernaut.
Pak DID NOT waste any effort and did a good job establishing WWH place relative the the usual levels and ranges of previous incarnations. Just because it is in your best interest to elementary, on panel depictions does NOT mean that Pak fails . Furthermore im not sure what "high end" characters you were looking for but excluding Thor, most of Marvels bricks were in that storyline. Sentry was more than an adequate replacement for Thor anyways. In that arc alone WWH did oneshot she hulk, Ares, prove to be superior to Hercules, beat Zom strange, resisted Xavier and Stranges mind attacks and physically took out the Sentry. Then following that (as still written by Pak) he thunderclapped Rulk into oblivion tanked the attacks of an Armageddon that easily downed Merged Hulk (who is by the way right up there with Savage Hulk) and trumped an enormously amped Bi Beast and Wendigo simultaneously.
Did WWH in that arc and beyond do anything beyond what is within savage Hulks capabilities to do? NO as all Hulks have equal potential. Did he consistently operate at a level higher than what Savage Hulk and other previous Hulk versions usually did due to having a base above the upper part of Savage Hulks usual range and then growing from there? Undoubtedly Yes. Pretending like all the Green Scar persona has done is beat Namor (who he never actually even fought) is just more of you desperate misrepresentation in the face of on panel truths.
Now this is definitely the lowlight of the debate where Newjack fails to show the most basic reading comprehension skills let alone ability to form a reasoned argument. I specifically referenced WBH stomps because Pak himself made extensive using the step/stomp dichotomy and the subsequent difference in the levels of physical exertion required in a casual footstep which exerted 100 trillion tons worth of KE and nearly sank the east coast as opposed to an outright stomp which WWH did several times but which were much much less efectual. Paks awareness of this divergence and difference in effectiveness is obvious through his re-iteration of the term footstep multiple times. Newjack in his infinite wisdom interpreted this as me suggesting that the stomps i showed were WWH max power level and thus the limits of what his stomps could do despite the fact that I explicitly mentioned that the incidents I was showing were NOT the limit of Hulks strength but were rather to illustrate this dichotomy and the intentional usage of this specific tool by the author in order to convey the strength gap being dealt with here. So this is a Strawman by Newjack. AGAIN. Jeesh. I have no doubt that WWH can probably stomp hard enough to mess up the East coast. The issue is his inability to do that with a footstep (which requires much less physical exertion than any stomp) and how Pak specifically uses this to emphasize the impressiveness and strength gap between the Hulk versions. I know your mo is ignoring things cuz you dont like them Newjack but please get that nonsense out of here as it is flipping embarassing.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Last edited by Naija boy on May 3rd, 2012 at 03:10 PM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
oi vey.
no vote yet, folks. before i do vote, i want to be clear on a couple things. first, seems both of you are arguing slightly different things. naj is trying to use most consistent showings of previous hulks and nj seems to have no problem ignoring those kinds of showings and using high end feats of these previous hulks.
what IS the point here? naj has said savage could conceiveably attain wbh strength levels, but that that (and his highest feats) shouldn't be considered by judges. nj seems to be saying the exact opposite.
the problem from my point of view is this--you're BOTH right in what it is you're arguing, but you're not arguing the same thing. what exactly is the premise? one is saying there IS a consistent 'average' for hulk, the other is saying he is designed to NOT have an average. is THAT what you want me and the others to determine?
the other thing is--what issues should i be specifically taking into account with hulk as wbh?? the hotm arc clearly, but even in that arc there were 2 versions of hulk. so..... specifically which issues should we judges be focusing on regarding wbh and feats applicable to this particular discussion?
this is a confusing debate for a couple of reasons.....
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
it's not about it being easy or hard, that's the thing. you're both saying and arguing totally different things. i also am unsure what issues i should be considering when we're talking about wbh. without that knowledge, no way i can make an assessment on this thing.....
KMC Community Forums
Apr 12th, 2012 07:08 PM
Unfortunately the truth is that I readily admitted that in order to pre-emptively expose his failure to distinguish between the two points of analysis and thus make his current attempt to shift the goal post even more obvious. This isnt even an innovative use of the fallacy in question on his part, as this debate has absolutely nothing to do with whether these feats are theoretically out of the reach of Hulks previous versions or not but rather is a relative comparison of the specific character traits of the different Hulk incarnations as seen throughout the totality of their histories. I want to make it clear that the Hulk was NOT designed to be inconsistent, he was designed to be dynamic (grow stronger with anger) and in the case of Hulk, their is a clear difference between the two. Dynamic as previously explained necessitates that he grows stronger with anger and thus is able to elevate based on his anger. That dynamic strength started off from particular base range and grew from there. Savage Hulk for instance regularly ranged between a midlevel and high level class 100 character since those were the strength levels of the bulk of his foes The character Savage Hulk thus consistently fell into that RANGE. Him not having static strength is therefore a representation of his dynamism NOT his inconsistency as a pattern of consistency can be observed when examining his strength range 
