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KMC High-Meta Championship
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JakeTheBank
Return of the King

Gender: Male
Location: Doomstadt

KMC High-Meta Championship

The following will be the deciding title match for the KMC High-Meta Championship.

Rules are as follows:

1. 10 Post Limit.

2. No time manipulation.

3. No insta-kill tactics such as teleporting into solid objects. Even if an attack isnít instantaneous, any attack that could, as a matter of its nature, not be defended against is considered this.

3. Characters will not have knowledge of who they are fighting pre-fight. In battle, they will only be able to know things if the two characters already knew each other.

4. Non-offensive matter manipulation is allowed.

5. No duplication.

6. No power copying in any way.

7. Only experience carries from previous fights, and only information you could have reasonably discovered in the fight is learned.

8. No immortal characters. Characters should be able to be defeated by reasonably accessible means. Healing factors strong enough to blur the line with this are also banned.

9. While battlefields will change, it is assumed that nobody can leave the whole of the battlefield by any means. This also means no BFR or self-BFR. If you fly too far, you hit an impenetrable wall.

10. No reality warping.

11. Rules may be changed if certain strategies become an obvious problem.

12. Matches last 14 days.

13*. ( Prep) You will receive a 5 minute briefing about your opponent. You cannot gather gear that would not be considered standard gear.

*Both Leo and Digi have opted not to use the prep time.

Judges for this bout are:
-JaketheBank
-Galan007
-Blair Wind
-Cogito
-Charlotte DeBel

Fight takes place on Mars' surface, surrounded by an unbreakable dome with breathable atmosphere.

The participants?

Digi, representing Luke Skywalker

&

Leonidas, representing Shift


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2012 03:03 AM
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JakeTheBank
Return of the King

Gender: Male
Location: Doomstadt

Leo's opening post:

------

quote:
good luck to my esteemed opponent. the quality of these matches has been pretty good so far i think. hopefully this will uphold the tradition.

Ok, so, in this little match i've decided to go with.............SHIFT. Now some of you might be saying: who the f*** is shift?? Well, shift is/was a member of the OUTSIDERS some time ago. He was basically METAMORPHO because, well, he WAS metamorpho. Or at least a part of him. Shift thought he was metamorpho for a long time because he grew from a piece of rex and became a unique being all his own. turns out while he possessed all of rex's powers, he also developed powers of his own. here is a brief description of his abilities:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/powersp.jpg/

so, yeah, he's pretty cool. smile

now, to the battle. my opening strategy is a pretty simple one. i immediately determine the composition of the air around me (shift can see molecular structure):

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/seescomp.jpg/

and become gasesous, blending in perfectly with the surrounding atmosphere and spread out as wide as i am able. in this state it would be close to impossible to locate me as i would be indistinguishable from the surrounding atmosphere. at the very least it would take time to determine whatever difference might exist between me and the air. now, in the event that i am facing a telepath, i set up a little trap like here when phobia was around:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/511/tp3zu5.jpg/

i plant little bio-feedback bombs in my brain so that when he/she scans for my thoughts, he/she gets a nasty little surprise instead. during the short time the person is stunned, i change form and let the flooding begin:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/tpblock.jpg/

fuse was a powerful telepath capable of mind-controlling large groups of people from across at least continental distances. the flooding made it impossible for him to focus his powers for a time. of course, in this case, while the flooding is taking place, i will ALSO turn part of my body into water vapor, enter through my opponent's mouth and make my way to his/her lungs and become lead or maybe molten lava? whatever i feel is most appropriate i suppose.

if i am NOT facing a telepath, but rather an armored opponent, or better still, an android of some sort, still in my gaseous state i will probe the armor (determine its composition) and look for an opening (any opening--a boot jet, a palm blaster, whatever--if it's an android getting in is as easy as slipping in an ear or mouth or nose). if i find one, i infiltrate and do this:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/shrapnel1.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/shrapnel2.jpg/

if i can't find an opening (not sure how that might be UNLESS there is a forcefield) i've still a large number of offensive options, but i will address them next post as they will be more opponent specific.

if my opponent DOES have a force field in place i also have some options available to me. the first being that the shield will usually let AIR pass through. if that is the case here, getting through the shield will be easy enough. if it is not semi-permeable, then, again, i have options, but they will be outlined next post when i know more clearly what it is i am facing.

so, to recap:

--i am essentially undetectable at the outset and spread out over a large area (in gaseous form shift can cover somewhere in the neighbourhood of a city block). from that relative safety, i will examine my opponent and choose the best method of attack.

--i have prepared defenses against tp assault. if a telepath scans for me, they will find me but be taken surprise by the bombs i planted in my head. while he/she is stunned, i finish him/her off quickly.

--if the opponent is armored, i look for a way in then explode from WITHIN the armor.

--if the opponent has a force field erected, i determine if it is semi-permeable or not. if it is, see armored contingency. if not, see next post.

--if the opponent is a basic brick-style character, wellll........

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/mammoth1u.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/mammoth2.jpg/

lol

(incidentally, that was shimmer who stopped shift's fun by forcibly transmuting him into concrete--shift changed back a little while later)


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2012 03:05 AM
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JakeTheBank
Return of the King

Gender: Male
Location: Doomstadt

Digi's opening post:

------


quote:
Oh man, a tourney match. Let me see if I remember what Iím doing:

My character is Luke Skywalker. For those of you who have been living in a cave for the last 40 years, hereís an incredibly comprehensive link:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker

But, just to quell any fears of non-SW fans, this isnít just ďmovie Luke.Ē This is ďextended Star Wars universe Luke,Ē or EU Luke, which is an entirely different beast. Lucasarts manages their canonicity incredibly well, so I have various mediums to draw from. Mostly, I will be pulling from comics and books, where I will highlight relevant passages.

Basically, Luke has become THE Jedi Master in the universe in current EU canon, with full mastery over the Force and a host of exotic powers. There are arguably more powerful Jedi in the history of SW, but youíd be hard-pressed to find one that has displayed such a diverse skill set with the Force. Below is a list of powers Iíll be drawing from. I will, of course, back each of these up with scans or direct references (though not in this writeup).


    - Enhanced Speed & Reactions
    - Telekinetic Shielding
    - Offensive Telekinesis
    - Enhanced physical capabilities (jumping, throwing, etc.)
    - Mid-level telepathy, able to conceal my presence or outright win the fight if he does not possess formidable defenses.
    - High-level Ranged Illusion Projection
    - Low-level Precognition (similar to spider-sense)
    - Force Lightning (if needed)
    - Low-level energy and electricity absorption
    - ďLifeĒ Detection (making it impossible to hide from me or surprise me)
    - Short-range object teleportation (to disarm if needed)
    - Multi-tasking these powers and abilities with the Force
    - And of course, his Lightsaber, which has few peers in the SW universe in terms of cutting ability (think secondary adamantium or reinforced titanium blades). Luke is also the preeminent lightsaber duelist of his time, so thereís his skill to consider.


Iíll also present some fun combinations of these powers and abilities depending on who my opponent chooses.

Opening Strategy
TK shields up, lightsaber drawn, mental and physical presence hidden by the Force. I will detect my opponent from the start. If possible, I will conceal myself both telepathically and physically, using my speed and senses to either initiate the fight or ambush him. And when I am close, I will distract him with a lifelike illusion of Luke before launching a simultaneous telepathic, telekinetic, and lightsaber assault on my opponent.

My guess is that either A. Leoís pick doesnít have the raw power to stand up to Luke, or B. One or more of my powers presents an insurmountable problem for him.

This is not the Luke you know from the movies. This is a Jedi legend, who wields his power like an extension of himself in fluid harmony with his deadly actions.



(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

So let's do this leo. I've been dying to debate with Luke. You get to be my guinea pig.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2012 03:06 AM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

luke skywalker??? lol

nice. should be fun.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2012 03:18 AM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Digi's opening post:

Opening Strategy
TK shields up, lightsaber drawn, mental and physical presence hidden by the Force. I will detect my opponent from the start. If possible, I will conceal myself both telepathically and physically, using my speed and senses to either initiate the fight or ambush him. And when I am close, I will distract him with a lifelike illusion of Luke before launching a simultaneous telepathic, telekinetic, and lightsaber assault on my opponent.

My guess is that either A. Leoís pick doesnít have the raw power to stand up to Luke, or B. One or more of my powers presents an insurmountable problem for him.

This is not the Luke you know from the movies. This is a Jedi legend, who wields his power like an extension of himself in fluid harmony with his deadly actions.


------


let's do this indeed. lol

ok, so not a lot to go on here, nor am i especially well-versed beyond movies and a couple novels, in all things luke. because of that lack of knowledge, i'll likely be a pain in the a$$ in terms of looking for some pretty explicit on-panel proof of a number of things specific to the match.

to begin with, i'll assume that luke is able to sense my life force, like spidey could do. but all he would get is a general sense that yes, i AM present all around him but since i HAVE no shape, he wouldn't be able to see me nor would he have anything to attack directly with either tk or light saber. that would lead him to do 1 of 2 things next i think--he would either create his illusion as he said he does (which, of course, wouldn't be of any use since as i pointed out earlier shift is capable of looking at an object and determining its molecular structure) or he would try and find me via tp, also something he said he would try.

which of course is pretty much what i was hoping he would try. smile

to reiterate from my opening, i have planted bio-feedback bombs in my mind for just such a contingency.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/511/tp3zu5.jpg/

when he scans my mind, he finds a bomb instead. the bomb will not do any lasting harm, but it WILL hurt and coming as a complete surprise it would certainly stun him for a short time. but that's all i would need. i'm pretty sure luke, for all his power, is essentially human. once he is stunned, it would be easy enough to finish him off in any number of ways once i infiltrate his body, first via flooding:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/tpblock.jpg/

then, by using something simple like hydrochloric acid once i am inside his lungs or brain, i should be able to end this pretty quickly. smile

now, a couple things i'd also like clarification on. first, how strong are these tk shields? next, he said luke has a tk shield in place AND launches a tk assault AND a tp attack. not that it should matter since he should be finished as soon as he attempts to find me telepathically, but CAN he launch a tp attack through a shield? and what kind of shield? a dome? a front-facing shield wall? a full globe? and can he launch a tk attack through his shield as well?

i ask because as air, i would surround him completely from nearly the outset and as i said i was probing for a shield, testing for resistance all around him. if he was fully encased in a tk shield, i would think it WOULD be semi-permeable. therefore i would be able to get through his shield anyway (since i assume luke needs to breathe and wouldn't have made the shield air-tight??) once inside the shield (and while he is still scanning for me with his enhanced senses, maybe before the tp attack), i could shift to something as simple as sarin gas (colourless, odourless and tasteless but utterly deadly) and finish him before he even has a CHANCE to die via tp scanning. big grin

if there is any doubt about the permeability of his shield, i could turn a small part of my mass into martian silicate and enter his shield from below (can't imagine he would have created a spherical shield for himself since he wasn't flying....). once inside his shield, and still undetectable, i could again finish this in any number of ways via gases or bodily infiltration.

even if he somehow survives the outset of the match, i don't really see him being able to harm me, certainly not physically with his tk or his light saber and i've set a trap against tp. trap aside, shapeshifters in general are difficult to mind f*** by their very nature. and with my mind and consciousness so spread out, i really don't see a tp assault being effective ANYWAY.....

so.....yeah. well planned defense and limitless offensive options=shift ftw. big grin


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2012 04:04 PM
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Digi
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Gender: Unspecified
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Digi Post #1

Ok, sorry for the somewhat belated start. I had to deal with some people pulling at Luke's coattails. No one has actually disagreed with Luke at high meta though, despite quite a few weighing in on it who have a fair amount of SW EU knowledge, so I assume I can focus on my match.

A brief note: if needed, I can provide exact references for any of the book-feats I post.

Luke's Powers

Hereís some extrapolation on the powers I listed above. It's not nearly all his feats, but will get us started.

I also explain how each of these plays into the battle.

TK
How strong are his TK shields, Leo asks? Strong.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/772/87528239.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5416/73725691.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4727/49806695.jpg

Please note, thatís an AT-AT, so those are tank-busting blasts he shielded against, not regular blaster fire.

He was also able to land an inert spaceship using the Force:
Lando: "A ship with lightspeed engines thatíll take you from here to Tatooine in a nanosecond. But it drops through the atmosphere like a stray meteor. Iím telling you, this face of mine should be smashed as flat as a Hutt in heavy gravity."

Han: "So what happened?"

Lando: "It was Luke! He guided that ship down like it was an Ewokís hang glider. Used the deflector shields to cushion our fall."

Han: "Thatís great, but-"

Lando: "But, it was more than that, no one should have been able to land that ship. But after seeing what he did to that Imperial Walker, well he must have used the Force to help him. Heís growing strong, Han. Really strong. I havenít seen anything like that since, since Vader."


Here he is walking over lava, something that would disintegrate a normal human:
Without a doubt in his mind, still throbbing with the Force after his battle against the fireworm, he closed his eyes.

Luke walked across the lake of fire.

He did not think about it. The lava refused to touch his feet. Only the Force burned bright around him.


Hereís another great example: he casually lifts something that is at least several tons heavy, with barely any effort.
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3388/67362167.jpg

Life Detection

Luke can pinpoint lifeforms and locations, even aliens that heís never encountered:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/6804/66350111.jpg

Has he pinpointed a gaseous cloud? No, heís never had the need to. But heís never failed to detect a lifeform, so worst case scenario, I can pinpoint an area, then use my more ďnormalĒ senses to find him once Iím close.

However, this also raises a problem: if Shift is a cloud, the telepathic ambush-bomb tactic is invalidated. If heís not a cloud, I can detect him from anywhere on the battlefield (not that I canít anyway, but more precisely).

Telepathy

Here is Luke making himself ďinvisibleĒ to another through telepathy, and it raises a GREAT point about leoís telepathic
A guard whose mind had accepted Luke's mental command to allow him inside the giant tent stood watch at the entrance, blind now to his presence.
Önow, remember how I said Iím concealing myself from the start of the fight? As this shows, to do this involves telepathic intrusion. So even if leoís telepathic trick works, Iíll know well before the fighting begins.

As Iíll get to later, leoís telepathy ambush has a few other problems with it, and also doesnít actually incapacitate his attacker. But even if it works as well as leo thinks, Iíll be too far away for him to do anything about it.

Illusion Creation

I have a couple great scans of Luke creating illusions, but hereís a grab-bag from the Wookiepedia list (all have legit citations):
    - While searching for the kidnapped Solo children, Luke used the Force to create an illusion over his face in order to disguise his identity.
    - After the Black Fleet Crisis, with newfound knowledge from the White Current, Luke removed the Teljkon Vagabond from view using the Force; however he admitted that he did not know how long it would last.
    - After the Black Fleet Crisis, Luke taught the combined White Current/the Force illusion skill to his more experienced students, which would help shield the entire moon Yavin 4 from intruders during the Yuuzhan Vong War.
    - During the early days of the Dark Nest Crisis, Luke used the Force to generate a lifelike copy of the Jade Shadow to fool the attacking dartships. This usage of the Force was so extreme, Luke burnt out and his face was temporarily sunken and shriveled like Palpatine's.
    - A year later Luke applied the same trick on the DR919a, by then Luke already mastered the technique and would no longer burn out.
    - Right before the Battle of Fondor, Luke made Caedus "see" a fleet of ships, causing him to panic in front of his navy. Luke directed it right at Caedus in general, to show him what he can do and to scare Caedus into talking with Luke.


Hereís the takeaway from that: Lukeís ability to project believable illusions, fooling even other Force users, is unbelievably powerful in detail and scope.

So letís scratch a single duplicate illusion, and go full-on Mysterio on his ass. When I attack, Shift is first going to be bombarded with numerous duplicates of Luke, monsters that appear in the environment, some starships, etc. He will have no idea where his attacker is actually coming from. None whatsoever.

Skill and Speed

Oftentimes I think the books do a better job of describing powers, but I want you to be able to see it in action too. So hereís a cool skill feat:
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/664/30118195.jpg

Reaction Times:
Beyond that, Luke saw, there was at least a dozen more shooters crowding toward the doorway. Maybe more. It wasn't as if he had ime to do a precise count here---more energy beams cooked the air, scorching past Luke and spearing computer consoles and technicians alike. "Too many of them!" Melan yelled. "This way!" Luke wove a curtain of hard light with his blade, deflecting blaster bolts and driving the attackers back temporarily. He leaped to the side, and Melan fired repeatedly into the opening, momentarily clearing it.

I actually donít currently have a scan or quote of him using the Force to boost his running speed. He has done it though, and itís a pretty basic Jedi skill anyway, so I hope no one will begrudge me for asking you to simply accept that he can do it easily, and incorporate that into his arsenal.

Hereís one last scan showing some fancy lightsaber manipulation. File it away for now Ė Iíll be referencing it later.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1351/75571011.jpg

I could go on about his dueling skill with the lightsaber Ė heís a match for any swordsman in comics and with a much better weapon than most Ė but it wonít really be needed against Shift.

Pain Supression

"What's the chance you could Jedi me a little nerve blockage? This hurts like crazy." Wedge voice sounded weaker. He pulled in his knees and braced to push off. At moments like these, moisture farming for Uncle Owen back on Tatooine didn't sound too bad. "I'll try," said Luke. "Show me the crystals. Look at them closely."

Ö Luke tweaked Wedge's pain perception.


Multi-tasking

"Who's up there firing the blaser cannons?" Han asked.
"Luke," Leia said, and Han looked down the hallway, confused. You could fire the blasters from the cockpit, but only with greatly reduced accuracy. Yet Luke had nearly taken Gethzerion's head off, with Han less than a meter away, while piloting this hunk of junk at full attack speed. The whole thing was just too darned spooky.
Luke sweated from the effort of flying the Falcon. Levers and buttons on Chewie's control panel seemed to take on a life of their own as Luke manipulated them with the Force. The Jedi was doing the work of three--pilot, co-pilot, gunner.


And while the passage says he was exerting himself quite a bit here, it was also very early in his career, very shortly after the movies. His progression as a Jedi means that multiple simultaneous tasks will not be an issue for me.

The point being, these powers are not to be considered alone, but as a tapestry woven together.

The Overall Effect

This is only half the equation. To paint a picture, we need to see how these would affect Shift, which Iíll get to in my next post. I will refer back to these powers frequently though, and with luck wonít need too many more scans.


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Old Post Jul 27th, 2012 09:37 PM
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Digi
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Gender: Unspecified
Location:

Digi Post #2

You love the Outsiders, donít you leo? First Indigo and now Shift. Fortunately, my tourney history is starting to pay off. Not only am I familiar with them from your Indigo usage, but I also did a fair amount of research on the Outsiders when I drafted Cpt. Boomerang Jr. in a past tourney, and also a little when I used Freddy Freeman.

Shiftís Strengths & Weaknesses

Iíll give Shift this: heís very hard to kill permanently. In fact, Iím going to have to confirm that some sort of indefinite dispersal constitutes a win here, or else we have an issue. Assuming that it doesÖ

What isnít hard to do is disperse and/or incapacitate him. See, Shift is great when heís on the offensive. But when he gets attacked, things start to go wrong.

Hereís my basic idea: Shift can be dispersed and/or made useless temporarily from various attacks. He always reforms himself eventually in the comics, but itís always while the bad guy is dealing with the rest of the team, or when he has time to reform. Sometimes this is as quickly as a few panels, other times itís an entire issue or extended fight sequence. He will not have that luxury in this match. I will disperse him/incapacitate him, then continue this until he is little more than incoherent vapor or rubble.

Letís look at the evidence:

In his own words, admitting that reconstituting himself is harder when he didnít control it:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5540/shift1u.jpg

Here he is getting smashed in solid form:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1387/shift4l.jpg
Öand this is the one that took him a whole issue to recover from.

Hereís what happens when he gets contained and squeezed:
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6861/shift5.jpg
We unfortunately donít get to see the end of this. Indigo saves him on the next page. But itís pretty clear he was in trouble. Itís just as clear that I can recreate this with TK.

A basic street-ish level energy gun messing him up:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2872/shift6.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2499/shift7.jpg
Öwhich Iíd say is no match compared to what a lightsaber could do to him. Again, wouldnít kill him permanently, but once I get him like this, the fight is all but over.

Need more proof that a lightsaber would **** him up. Here you are:
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6735/shift8.jpg
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/8884/shift9.jpg
So heís talking and ok, but helpless while he reforms. Thatís WAY more time than I need to finish him off.

The Telepathy Problem(s)

Leo planted a mind bomb for me to find. Clever, that. But thereís more to the story.

Problem #1 Ė Itís not that powerful
Letís look at the scan again:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/511/tp3zu5.jpg/
Oh, right, sheís talking in the same panel. It didnít really do that much.

Problem #2 Ė Itís located in the fear center, which isnít a given that I would even target with my tp attack.

Problem #3 Ė Heís still vulnerable to telepathy.
Here are the next two pages:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8934/shift12.jpg
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4586/shift13.jpg
So after the initial failure, she heads right back into his mind and messes with him.

Problem #4 Ė IT ISNíT SHIFT
Omfg, what? Yeah, look at that last scan again:
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4586/shift13.jpg
ďMr. Mason.Ē This is Rex Mason, Metamorpho, the entity that Shift came from (and was later absorbed back into). This can be easily confirmed throughout the story arc, and Iíll provide further proof in a second. Anyway, Shift and Metamorpho shared some memories, but not a ton. And, Iím guessing, not intricate patterns for a complicated one-off feat like that. Itís not the character leo drafted, and Metamorpho has more experience with his powers than Shift ever accumulated.

Need more proof? Later in that same story arc, Metamorpho sends part of himself off to help, who is mistaken for Shift (but isnít):
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4769/shift14.jpg
Even an aspect of Metamorpho, that branched off from him after the telepathy feat, doesnít share most memories with him.

Leo isnít without ways to spin this, but itís going to be a hard sell. Judges, just remember that a best case scenario for the tp-bomb is a minor hindrance for me. Worst case scenario, he mucked up with feats and doesnít even have access to this particular one.

ďYou Had Me at Meat TornadoĒ

Google ďRon SwansonĒ if you donít get the reference. Youíll thank me.

Iím presenting this feat/tactic on its own, because it goes beyond the simple TK and TP attacks (though either of those would work).

Letís take a look at Metamorpho (post Shift-absorption) in action against a Jay Garrick clone:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9118/shift10.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/1217/shift11.jpg

Now letís read a passage where Luke tears apart a house:
Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.

But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.

Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.


Ok, damn. Letís break this down. He disassembled a house, crushed a starfighter in the process (see also: TK strength) then created a Force Tornado and hurled it until it ďvanished from sight.Ē Iím sure you can see the applications for our battle.

Recap

My illusions will confuse him and preoccupy him.

I can create a Force maelstrom, utterly disassembling him, and hurling him beyond easy reformation.

And if he goes solid, I lightsaber his ass or crush him via TK.

Telepathy would hinder him. His TP trick is probably not even valid.

I am faster and have better senses, so I will always control the encounter.

Shift is a versatile, tricky guy. But he's outmatched here.

I like Shift, leo, and I appreciate clever picks. Continued good luck to you in this match Ė Iím already having fun.


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Last edited by Digi on Jul 27th, 2012 at 09:51 PM

Old Post Jul 27th, 2012 09:40 PM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

post the second

all righty, so i'll focus on digi's second post since the first one was primarily him highlighting luke's powers. and you're right digi, i DO love the outsiders. one of my fave team books. smile

this first post will focus on the TP issue (seems to be a theme with my guys! lol) since i think it requires some explanation.

firstly, well done and good post. didn't take you long to figure out that was rex and not shift in that scan. i wasn't really trying to be slick there--i absolutely knew you'd figure it out. i even gave the name of the woman so you were only a rudimentary search away from the 'discovery'. but, if it were that easy, why use it at all you say? well, i'm going to explain why i thought it might be appropriate, but judges, bear in mind i said THIS in my first post as well:

trap aside, shapeshifters in general are difficult to mind f*** by their very nature. and with my mind and consciousness so spread out, i really don't see a tp assault being effective ANYWAY.....

now, given the nature of luke's "tp", i think more than ever the attack would be ineffective REGARDLESS of the verdict on my 'bombs'. i don't want this explanation to sound like something i NEED. the trap idea was just convenient (and you'll see why it seemed logical to me as well), it isn't something that i MUST have in this match.

so far as the scan: as digi pointed, out rex and shift don't share ALL their memories, but they DO share a lot of them (shift even remembered rex's dog's name from when rex was a kid). he primarily remembers mostly big picture stuff though, feelings, and the like, and forgets some of the details. so what does that have to do with validating use of that scan? well, not to put too fine a point on it--shift IS rex. literally. he's a part of rex that "broke" off on accident and grew from him.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/origin1.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/origin2c.jpg/

he was such a perfect replica that even heroes who knew rex very well like nightwing and batman, (even jade had battled at his side in the past a couple times) could not tell it WASN'T rex. be clear: he's not a clone--he's closer than that. he is PART of rex. his thought patterns, his sense of needing to do good, his sense of humor, all of it was for all intents and purposes, rex. but, where rex had to work years to develop his powers, shift was "born" with the innate ability to use his. how could that be? because he ALREADY possessed rex's experience. in fact as i showed in the first post, he actually becomes MORE powerful than rex when he learns he is his own individual.

so, after all that, what do we have? we have a piece of rex, innately capable of using his powers to a very high degree, who possesses many of rex's direct memories and many more broadly-oriented ones, whose thought patterns were so close to rex's that not even close associates like nightwing and batman could tell them apart AND who actually has BETTER control of elements than rex does. at the outset of this match, he was anticipating what he might be able to do if he faced a telepath in this blind battle. remember, he thinks like rex...... and....TA-DA! the bio-bombs seemed like a very logical illustration of what shift could be capable of creating to protect himself. and they still do. smile apologies if anyone took offense or thought i was being sly with the scan. oh, and there is no reason whatsoever to suggest he couldn't create them (or something like them) in whatever parts of his brain he wanted to.

but....please note--as digi also pointed out--the bombs may not be possible if they are actual 'physical' constructions (no real detail is given about them). recall i am in a gaseous state, utterly indistinguishable from the surrounding atmosphere. which is why, again, in my opening, i ALSO said: trap aside.....

but, if my bombs can't manifest because i (and my brain) are amorphous, how can luke affect me telepathically? it's a double-edged sword. shift is composed of unstable molecules, his physical form is literally constantly 'shifting' around. it is this property of his and rex's that allow them to assume any form. is there any proof from luke that he could affect someone like me? i am a disembodied consciousness without a physical (OR ESPECIALLY IMPORTANTLY!!) an ORGANIC mind to latch onto. this is why i said above i didn't think the trap would be necessary.

here is a fairly interesting tidbit, one that i just learned and that should put to rest the idea that ANY of his little mind tricks would work on me.

first, from wookiepedia (WOOKIEpedia, i lol'd...) under the heading FORCE ILLUSION:

Though powerful, it [the illusions] was not without its drawbacks. Chief among them was that it had absolutely no effect on any mind that wasn't organic, such as droids and other AI, and had a greatly reduced (or almost nonexistent) effect on Force users or Force-resistant species such as Hutts and Yuuzhan Vong.

doesn't work on minds that are not organic. well, guess what form i've shifted into at the outset of the match--yep, non-organic, gaseous martian atmosphere. not that it matters. metamorpho/shift is no longer organic in any sense of the word anyway--shift doesn't even have a circulatory system!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...orysysytem.jpg/

so, ZERO chance the illusions would work at all on me. smile

now, his mind trick/tp powers. this from the ESSENTIAL GUIDE TO THE FORCE:

Some species, including Hutts and Toydarians, are naturally resistant or immune to Jedi mind trick as a result of their brain structure. Other creatures could learn to resist Jedi mind tricks with training.

brain structure can affect the ability of a jedi to use a mind trick. i can guarantee he has never come across a brain structure like mine. first, it's in constant motion (unstable molecular structure), second it's gaseous, third it's non-organic, and lastly it is non-localized/disembodied.

so....yeah. i don't see any way for the illusions OR his mind tricks to work.

important point: i'd love to see some proof that luke even has a CHANCE to affect me telepathically in my gaseous form. moreoever, i would like to see an example of him using his force persuasion IN DIRECT COMBAT. it's a slow moving attack, usally needing hand waving and a special voice even. NOT something you just pull out in the middle of a battle......

ok, quick recap:

--i used the rex scan because in a literal sense, shift IS rex, complete with many of his memories and thought patterns. he can innately use his powers as well as rex can, and more, he can do things even rex himself was never able to do. given the blind match and the fact that shift was attempting to come up with additional ways to protect vs tp, and given that he thinks like rex, it seemed logical to suggest he might come up with the bombs (or some close variation) himself.

--the bombs were only an additional form of protection. shift's unstable nature and his amorphous/non-organic form should be sufficient protection on their own. no physical mind=no place for luke's "tp" to latch on to and we know for certain the illusions won't work. i'll go into more detail regarding some of the misinformation digi presented regarding shift, the effectiveness of the bomb, as well as some of the inherent problems digi's offensive strategy suffers from in my next post.

ps--you're right digi, this IS fun! big grin


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Old Post Jul 30th, 2012 03:22 AM
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post numero trois

so, mind tricks out of the way, let's take a closer look at some of the rest of what digi has said and attempted to do. first, his scans. he's right, shift IS damn hard to kill. but of course a dispersal from which he can't quickly reform in this match will count as a ko as would any other logical method of taking him out for a prolonged period of time. thumb up

that however, is not as easy as it sounds. let's look at each scan starting with this one:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5540/shift1u.jpg

it's true what digi said. but that was from VERY early on in the series. he didn't even know he wasn't REX at that point. and here is HOW that happened:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/boomg.jpg/

an unexpected and f'n HUGE mushroom cloud explosion. not sure i see luke packing that kind of power..... and even if he was, like i said, that was early shift. he got better:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/asbestos.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/576/durable1.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/durable2.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/durable3.jpg/

those last scans are VERY impressive. that was a surprise attack from an amped BLACKFIRE. that attack ko'd both starfire and jade. only shift was left standing, though barely. again, i don't see luke packing that type of power.

next: http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2872/shift6.jpg and http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/8884/shift9.jpg

both of these hardly need explaining. (a) he was solid. (b) both were unexpected attacks from FRIENDS and he wasn't trying to defend himself. neither of those are in play here so both those scans are utterly irrelevant. here's just a quick look at what he COULD have done to katana's blade had he been facing her:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/katanaif.jpg/

shift literally had dozens of ways to either flat out halt katana, ko her or simply avoid her attack.

then there's this one: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1387/shift4l.jpg

which is interesting. it's another back attack/surprise attack like those above and what's more, that was SHIMMER, an uber transmuter who even transmuted all of JADE's constructs.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/shimmer.jpg/

however, as you can see from the next scan, things go a little differently when shift confronts her directly:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/rematch.jpg/

he flat out BLOCKS her power and tackles her. later their battle is interrupted but it is clear she cannot transmute him--that's actually an amazing showing from shift.

the last one: http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6861/shift5.jpg

is preceded by THESE ones: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...shrapnel1k.jpg/ and http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/shrapnel2.jpg/

as you can see--again--shift was solid, his mass was localized, which allowed shrapnel to collect and seal it all in one place. again, not relevant to this battle. and of course THAT battle wasn't over. air-tight means nothing to shift, who doesn't NEED to breathe. recall, he has no circulatory system even! and of course he has existed without problems in outer space. (shown above in the blackfire scan) he had ways to get out of that spot shrapnel put him in, but thanks to indy, he didn't need to show them.


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Old Post Jul 31st, 2012 04:45 AM
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quattro

so, scans disposed of, let's see some highlights. smile his best durability feat may well have been the blackfire scan where he reformed quickly from her massive and unexpected attack. but this one is pretty good too:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/nuke1.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/f/684/nuke2c.jpg/

reforming almost immediately from a nuclear blast doesn't suck. smile

then there is this, which is what happens when he is po'd (incidentally, this followed shortly after digi's tornado scan) when he realized just how tough jay's clone was. note how large he is in the first scan:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/playtime1.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/playtime2.jpg/

shift is not a guy that it pays to p!ss off. here's another example of him changing size and becoming huge:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...sizechange.jpg/

as i said, at the outset shift has assumed a massive, gaseous form, completely indistinguishable from the enveloping atmosphere. i said he might cover a city block's worth of space, but that is a conservative estimate... now, let's examine digi's proposed 'tornado' attack and look at the problems with it.

(1) digi says luke's best feat is tk'ing a house, or rather, a 'hermitage'. i'll be spread out over a MUCH larger distance than that.

(2) that attack also presupposes that his tornado attack is something he would go for immediately. given his jedi nature, THAT seems enormously unlikely in the extreme:

"Listen to the Force, Cade. A Jedi's first concern is to preserve life."ĮKol Skywalker

usually in these things we say cis is off. but for luke i think it would be a little different. even here he has to fight like a jedi would fight. i mean he's the very definition of the jedi. that means that he wouldn't know what a tornado might do to me or if that kind of force would be necessary to incapacitate me. seems EXTREMELY unlikely that he would make that his first option.

(3) the attack, as described, seemed very......slow, deliberate. i mean he had to search for weak points, break things down, get them spinning then hurl them away. and it seems as though it was a very difficult feat for him, requiring a great deal of focus. this isn't god-cable, who thinks something and it happens. nor is it flash, who tornadoed shift before shift even knew what was happening. luke needs to focus and things seem to build more slowly in the star wars world. think of all the movies--even yoda lifting the fighter from the bog took time and focus. as soon as shift had the idea that even PART of his mass was being impacted by his opponent, he would change tactics to deal with it. (see below for multi-assault tactic).

so, all in all, i'd not place a lot of confidence in that tornado attack he was considering....

to review:

--it is highly unlikely his mind tricks would be effective against me

--his illusions certainly do not work (and even if anyone thought they might, i can see molecular structure and would be able to see them for the illusions they are)

--his force tornado would also be ineffective for all the reasons above

--lightsaber? useless against my gaseous form

--control of the environment?? lol i AM the environment, and am large enough that his speed advantage is meaningless (and you saw above what he did when he was po'd to a flash anyway....)

--digi says luke is 'invisible' when he enters the match. but, to be invisible he would need to find and latch onto my mind FIRST. before that, he would need to SENSE me. and he would. but what he would sense is me EVERYWHERE. his invisibility is simply an illusion. i'd be immune to it. if you want to view it differently, then my non-localized mind/brain would make it impossible for him to manipulate me via tp, or my bombs might get him. bottom line: he is most certainly visible to me. smile

--his speed and skill are meaningless in this match

so, what is digi left with? not much i'm afraid. how do i see this match going down? simple really.

the moment we hit the ground we can barely see each other. i instantly assume the form of the atmosphere and effectively disappear. luke may have glimpsed me before i changed, but after i vanish he would be forced to try and find me again. he could sense me with his senses, but he would be unable to latch onto my mind (again, proof that he could affect a gaseous, disembodied mind is a must if we are to believe otherwise) and all he would know is that somehow, i now seem to be all around him. but knowing doesn't help him. he can't attack as he doesn't know WHERE to attack nor would he use his force tornado before he had some idea what he was facing. with nothing to attack directly, he would likely throw up a tk shield and stand ready with his lightsaber.

problem is, luke needs to breathe. his tk shield absolutely must allow air inside. child's play to simply reach an invisible hand disguised as the surrounding air forward, past his shield, change it to sarin gas and finish him from the inside as he takes a breath. or as i said, i could simply turn to lead in his lungs, or acid, or..... you get the picture.

if i probe and find for....whatever reason that i can't get in through his shield, i could always lever a multi-prong attack. to loosen him up, i could sandwich him between gasoline and pure oxygen. the resulting explosion would be enormous. once the energy has been released i could reform and from above, i could rain down as a massive flood of highly corrosive acid, (see the clone scan of po'd shift) while simultaneously attacking from below as he defends from the acid and recovers from the explosion. beneath him, i could become something like mercury and completely encase him then once he has been engulfed harden into something like titanium, shift that to a claw and just batter him in my grasp against the ground repeatedly. think something like this:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/clawj.jpg/

only bigger. smile my ability to shift and become multiple forms by spreading out my mass would be something that he would not be able to adjust to or defend against. and i really don't see him withstanding a physical pounding from someone capable of going toe-to-toe with guys like mammoth and shrapnel, both of whom are near cl100 level guys--especially after withstanding a massive explosion and an acid bath. he might cut my hand, (if he somehow survived the first assault) but that would hurt and do little else as it would simply reform almost immediately. the pounding would certainly shatter his focus and he probably wouldn't be able to maintain his shields. that would be....really bad. even if they were up, he'd be battered senseless within them.

recap of my offense:

as you can see, if his shields let in air (as it seems they must) i take him out quickly without fuss. if i can't sneak through his shields, it doesn't matter. he still goes down, it's just messier. digi is right, shift IS a tricky guy. but with his ability to control his mass and cover such a large area HE controls the battle at all times and he is effectively immune to luke's physical attacks.

**something else worth noting while i'm here--in his AT-AT scan, we see his shields up, but it seems they drop when he uses his saber to deflect. i wonder how good he IS at multi-tasking? in any battle, i see jedi deflecting shots. if they could fight while simultaneously keeping up their shields, why bother blocking shots? stands to reason--jedi powers are all about focus. maintaining shields while engaged in saber battles would be almost impossible. if not, how are any of them killed by sabers in battle?? their shields should protect them. food for thought. love to see proof that luke could do what digi said at the start, that is use shields, tp AND a tk attack all at once. even proof of his being blasted in the back and being unharmed while he's fighting to show his shields ARE up would be something. i'm guessing that isn't likely to happen though....**

anyway, once under a full physical assault, luke will certainly unable to focus his tp or tk. he will never have seen anything like me, and before he even understands what it is a can do, he will be finished. luke's a sweet pick, but this isn't a galaxy far far away and he's in a battle with something entirely unlike anything he's ever seen, and something he has no answers for.


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Old Post Jul 31st, 2012 04:45 AM
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Digi Post #3

I'll follow suit and do posts 3-5 now. #'s 3 and 4 will be responding to leo. Post #5 will be some new stuff on Luke, and overarching points on the fight.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
firstly, well done and good post. didn't take you long to figure out that was rex and not shift in that scan. i wasn't really trying to be slick there--i absolutely knew you'd figure it out. i even gave the name of the woman so you were only a rudimentary search away from the 'discovery'. but, if it were that easy, why use it at all you say? well, i'm going to explain why i thought it might be appropriate, but judges, bear in mind i said THIS in my first post as well:

trap aside, shapeshifters in general are difficult to mind f*** by their very nature. and with my mind and consciousness so spread out, i really don't see a tp assault being effective ANYWAY.....


To be clear, my attack is a fluid one. If you're in gas form, my first approach is with TK. If I can't affect you with TP, I have other methods of victory.

However, let's remember two things:
1. For all of leo's talk about shapeshifters, telepathy DID affect him. I showed it to you. I've proven that tp can work on him. Leo has only added some speculation on his state, and how it might affect my TO attacks. Best case for leo, he's immune to TP some of the time. But that's still a pretty good case for me, because it limits what leo can do with Shift before becoming vulnerable.
2. The gas-state also prevents him from using the TP bomb trick. Leo can't have it both ways.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
so far as the scan: as digi pointed, out rex and shift don't share ALL their memories, but they DO share a lot of them (shift even remembered rex's dog's name from when rex was a kid). he primarily remembers mostly big picture stuff though, feelings, and the like, and forgets some of the details. so what does that have to do with validating use of that scan? well, not to put too fine a point on it--shift IS rex. literally. he's a part of rex that "broke" off on accident and grew from him.


I'm not going to BS judges, and you haven't either (so far shifty ). Here's what we DON'T know:
- We don't know for sure whether or not Shift has the ability to perform the tp bomb feat. Leo honestly has as much chance of guessing correctly as I do.

Here's what we DO know:
- The independent character that is Shift, before he was absorbed and effectively killed permanently, existed before the TP bomb feat. Shift no longer existed as an independent by that point...it was only Metamorpho. He also didn't exist independently of Metamorpho any time after the feat.

Frankly, it's a little odd, like drafting Superman Blue and claiming the feats of Superman. This is a murky point - one that leo and I won't settle between us, but that the judges will have to decide upon. I don't think it's likely that Shift can claim this feat, especially once I showed the lack of memory transfer with an aspect of Metamorpho after the TP feat. But I've presented my evidence. It makes this tactic extremely suspect. Judges, have fun.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
here is a fairly interesting tidbit, one that i just learned and that should put to rest the idea that ANY of his little mind tricks would work on me.

first, from wookiepedia (WOOKIEpedia, i lol'd...) under the heading FORCE ILLUSION:

Though powerful, it [the illusions] was not without its drawbacks. Chief among them was that it had absolutely no effect on any mind that wasn't organic, such as droids and other AI, and had a greatly reduced (or almost nonexistent) effect on Force users or Force-resistant species such as Hutts and Yuuzhan Vong.

doesn't work on minds that are not organic. well, guess what form i've shifted into at the outset of the match--yep, non-organic, gaseous martian atmosphere. not that it matters. metamorpho/shift is no longer organic in any sense of the word anyway--shift doesn't even have a circulatory system!


Sorry dude, apparently the rules don't apply to Luke:
"Luke?"
SD-XX emerged from his security station and ran his electronic gave around the perimeter of the cabin, then reported, "There's no one here, Colonel."
"What about Luke Skywalker?" Caedus asked.
"I was just talking to him."
SD-XX fixed his blue photoreceptors on Caedus' face. "You were talking," he said. "But there was no one here. I assumed your circuits were misfiring again."

Caedus considered this, wondering whether his anxiety over being discovered might be making him imagine things. Then he remembered Gavin Darklighter had not only spoken to Luke, but also reacted to his instructions.

"No, he was here." Caedus opened himself to the battlemeld again and felt his uncle among the other Jedi, his presence filled with sadness and disapproval...and admonition. "I don't know how, but he was here."


That was Luke fooling a droid's sensors with an illusion. RIGHT AFTER making an entire fleet appear to Darth Caedus, panicking him into action. So, droids, Force users, check. Luke's illusions are top ****ing notch.

Here's him creating an illusion inside an orbiting spaceship, while Luke himself is on the planet's surface. Notice that it fools his sister, by this time a competent Jedi:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3928/48786734.jpg

I mean, Shift (and Metamorpho before him) are originally humans, and we know telepathy can affect him. I see this is a non-issue. Luke can manage entire fleets of illusions to confuse Dark Lords. A simple distraction will not be an issue.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
important point: i'd love to see some proof that luke even has a CHANCE to affect me telepathically in my gaseous form. moreoever, i would like to see an example of him using his force persuasion IN DIRECT COMBAT. it's a slow moving attack, usally needing hand waving and a special voice even. NOT something you just pull out in the middle of a battle......


He has shut down minds in the middle of an aerial battle. He hated doing it - not normally in his character - but it's well within his power. I will search for the reference.

Here's another good one:
The Luke-sized lieutenant frowned as he entered the stall, Luke right behind him. "What are you talking about, I don't see any uh---? What...?"

This last was uttered as Luke used the Force to take control of the man's thoughts. ...Luke ordered the man to strip, then have a seat and a nice long nap.


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2012 01:24 AM
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Digi Post #4

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
post numero trois


I'll truncate this. The gist was that leo was extolling Shift's abilities to reform. And he has some good feats, no doubt. Several points:

1. The feats I showed were not simply "early" feats. They were from all over his canon. He does not simply instantaneously reform the vast, vast majority of the time.
2. The source of the attack shouldn't matter. Shift saw his friend's gun pointed at him - for one example. The fact that he couldn't reform had nothing to do with being surprised.
3. The fight against the transmuter makes no difference. Once he was shattered in solid form, he was out for an entire issue. If I do that to him, which we know I can (lightsaber, TK, or both), he's dead. Period.
4. No one's completely innocent of this, but there was some selective scans-showing going on. "Here's Shift being dispersed. Now here he is when he gets back, and he's PISSED." Paraphrased, of course, but that was leo's idea. But that's missing the point. The point is, lots of things disperse Shift. Explosions, gunshots, swords, winds, husky sneezes, etc. And showing him when he reforms pages later or issues later means nothing, because if I disperse him to begin with, I can keep the pressure up indefinitely.

Want to see the whole fight with the speedster? I don't really need to show it, but I can if needed. The speedster deals with Shift, then deals with half a dozen others before actually being tagged and temporarily stopped by Cpt. Boomerang Jr. My point is, I can do exactly what the speedster did to ruin Shift but I don't have the teammates to deal with while Shift gets his second wind.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
as i said, at the outset shift has assumed a massive, gaseous form, completely indistinguishable from the enveloping atmosphere. i said he might cover a city block's worth of space, but that is a conservative estimate... now, let's examine digi's proposed 'tornado' attack and look at the problems with it.

(1) digi says luke's best feat is tk'ing a house, or rather, a 'hermitage'. i'll be spread out over a MUCH larger distance than that.


The reference also says he hurled said maelstrom, several tons worth by that time (minimum) beyond sight. So if you take the feat in its entirety, we're talking about more than a few meters of space, to put it mildly.

Also, what does being the size of a city block get you? I'm a human in this fight. All it gets you is a lot of unused property, so to speak. If you want to harm me, you'll have to come to me. And nothing you do is getting through my shielding or withstanding my attacks.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
(2) that attack also presupposes that his tornado attack is something he would go for immediately. given his jedi nature, THAT seems enormously unlikely in the extreme:

usually in these things we say cis is off. but for luke i think it would be a little different. even here he has to fight like a jedi would fight. i mean he's the very definition of the jedi. that means that he wouldn't know what a tornado might do to me or if that kind of force would be necessary to incapacitate me. seems EXTREMELY unlikely that he would make that his first option.


Bull. I'm not sure if this is a play on the judges or a legit opinion, but we control our characters. This is not a CIS-on fight. Tourneys have never been that way.

CIS Luke goes to ground for a series of days, trying to reach out in the Force for benevolent lifeforms, and he'd attempt to talk with Shift before attacking. And we know that's not happening. So cut this out.

Btw, Luke isn't Cap, Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, etc. He kills. He doesn't enjoy it, but he kills when he needs to.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
(3) the attack, as described, seemed very......slow, deliberate. i mean he had to search for weak points, break things down, get them spinning then hurl them away. and it seems as though it was a very difficult feat for him, requiring a great deal of focus. this isn't god-cable, who thinks something and it happens. nor is it flash, who tornadoed shift before shift even knew what was happening. luke needs to focus and things seem to build more slowly in the star wars world. think of all the movies--even yoda lifting the fighter from the bog took time and focus. as soon as shift had the idea that even PART of his mass was being impacted by his opponent, he would change tactics to deal with it. (see below for multi-assault tactic).


You're inviting disaster here. You really think I don't have other TK feats prepared?

Farther down the pass, Luke gestured as if making an upward palm strike against the empty air. Meters away, the farthest rancor stumbled backward and fell, landing full on its rider.

Remembers rancors? Luke fought one in "Return of the Jedi" beneath Jabba's palace. That was him flooring one with a palm strike in the air in front of him.

So, ya know, I'm not going to say the maelstrom will be instantaneous, but I'm pretty sure a few quick palm strikes (enhanced by Force reactions, mind you) are enough to push some gas in a dozen different directions, or crumble you if you decide to make yourself solid. The build-up time to some impressive feats is not long for Luke.

Keep pushing though, I have more if needed.


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2012 01:24 AM
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Digi Post #5

Iím going to jump around in this post, but thereís a lot of good (and new) stuff here.

Detection

If anyone stills harbors doubts about Luke being able to sense and detect Shift:
Distantly, he felt animal life across a wide area grow alarmed and alert as they detected a deep rumble in the ground; but it was only a minor tremor, a natural occurrence causing no damage. He gave a little shake of his head and turned his attention elsewhere.

Scars in the forestÖa new oneófamily settlement south-southeast, near the spaceport, a plot of ground laid bare by fire, a prefab permacrete hut now being erected there. He could feel other scars, tiny ones close by caused by the feet of rancors ripping at the forest floor, big ones in the distance caused by migrations of hundreds of beasts or people.

And then there she was. Her booted feet bruised grasses and lichen growing on rock outcroppings as she strung cord, turning a patch of ill-balanced boulders on a hillside into a dangerous deadfall.

She was unhappy about that, Luke could tell, unhappy that this trap was so much more dangerous than the previous ones. She didn't want to hurt them. She wanted, absolutely needed them to go away.

Luke felt her tense. He backed away on his contact. More dimly, he could sense her looking around in sudden paranoia, but her emotions gradually settled.

She had sensed him but not identified him. Her control of the Force was limited in certain areas, clearly.

Sure now where her rockfall trap lay and where she intended to wait, Luke withdrew and opened his eyes.


So letís recap. Incredible, insane sensing of details over miles of terrain. It includes many different kinds of sentient lifeforms, and minute details about the environment. He also identifies a hostile aggressor and the location she intended to ambush him.

Now, back to our match: Shift is THE ONLY LIFEFORM ON THE PLANET. And I canít find him?! Child, please.

Donít Get Me Angry

Shift isnít fun when heís angry? Neither is Luke:
In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.
"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."
Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.
"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."

"This has nothing to do with Mara," Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."

The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.


Caedus is a powerful Dark Side Force user, that Luke simply held in place instantaneously through telekinetic Force.

Apply that to our match, and thereís clearly some applications. Shield strength, speed at which he brought the power to bear, and the ability to apply an absurd amount of force in localized areas, which will clearly mess with Shiftís bodily integrity. This is also about the 3rd or 4th example Iíve given that is capable of such a tactic.

Absorption

At one point, leo questioned Lukeís base durability. Well, even without explicit TK shielding, heís got options:
The other stormtrooper swore and triggered an autoburst from his carbine. Luke's other hand, the prosthetic hand that had replaced the one his father had taken, came up in an arc that precisely followed the motions of the carbine's muzzle and caught all five bolts squarely in its palm.

He turned the palm upward in a friendly shrug and let the astonished troopers stare at the only effect of the Force-blunted blasterfire: a faint curl of steam that trailed upward from his unmarked palm.


So, kinda like Vader in Cloud City. Not a tactic I plan on resorting to, but a backup defense in case you believe he temporarily circumvents my attacks and shielding.

Precog Ė Why It Matters

I have scans and/or references to back this stuff up, of course. But letís talk more in general right now.
    - If thereís an ambush, Iíll know in enough in advance to avoid it, at worst, and set up a counter ambush at best.
    - TP BombÖif you believe it (you shouldnít), the Force will go off like an alarm before I reach out telepathically.
    - Itís not an insta-win if Iím outmatched. But itís a helluva tiebreaker if youíre wondering whether or not a certain trick will work, or if a tactic is viable. I have the initiative, I will engage him on my terms, and I will be warned of obvious dangers before they happen so that I am not. I hope this aspect of my powers doesnít go ignored Ė itís a very powerful component in how the match will play out.


Recap

- I still think his TP trick is bull, and that I've proven it as such.
- For all his dodging, I still showed that a telepath can affect Shift. He is not immune, and there is hard evidence to prove it. Anything past that is speculation.
- CIS is off. This is not even a question or opinion, it's fact.
- I'm still faster. I still have superior awareness and reflexes. I have precog to warn me of imminent danger. I still have numerous methods of attack. And I don't think Leo has once shown a viable method of breaking my shields, or even attacking me unhindered before I disband him into stray molecules.
- A lightsaber is WAY more powerful than the energy attacks that sliced Shift up. And my TK can recreate other that have wrecked him.


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2012 01:31 AM
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leonidas
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post V

TP ISSUES

i'll not go too much into this issue this time. i presented my reasoning for believing that shift is capable of a feat similar to what rex performed. shift IS rex, literally. here is one more scan to prove how close they were. arsenal is asking 'rex' how much he remembers:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/memory1k.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/memory2y.jpg/

i added the second scan to show that even the scientists at STAR labs (after all their studies) didn't know he wasn't rex. like i said, his thoughts, his actions, his ability to use his powers....all these things were based on rex.

digi said that for all my talk, the scan showed rex could be affected by a telepath. wellll, not exactly--the scan showed that when rex was knowingly going to FACE a tp, he could develop ways to PROTECT himself. oddly, it was the other personalities within rex that were his weakness. that is not relevant here. like rex, shift will have anticipated he'd be facing a tp, he would have thought about ways to protect himself and he has no other personalities. maybe he wouldn't do the exact same thing. that phobia scan was meant to illustrate that shift IS capable of protecting against tp. maybe he simply relocates parts of his brain. maybe he CAN make the bombs.

IF the bomb went off, luke would certainly be stunned. phobia was knocked on her arse, nose bleeding, shocked for a few seconds. luke has human durability and digi has shown nothing to indicate otherwise. blasters and sabers would kill him. kicks and punches hurt him. and finding a bomb WOULD stun him. that would be PLENTY of time for me to finish him off. and luke's little danger sense wouldn't help him in any way at all. the danger he senses would be ALL AROUND HIM. for more on this fact, see next couple posts. suffice to say, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY he would pinpoint my psyche as a 'danger' to be avoided so quickly. he would try his scan, the bomb would work or it wouldn't. if it doesn't, it's not because he had a warning (think spidey in a whole room of danger) but rather because in my disembodied state he can't use his mind trick at all. and recall--there is no proof i could be mind tricked in this form (never happened to shift in any book, and it never happened to REX--and he's been around for a LONG time....). on top of THAT fact, luke himself has no proof he could affect anyone in such a state.

no proof AGAINST me. no proof FOR luke. i think the chances of his mind trick working is extremely small. and if the mind trick won't work, neither will his illusions. how do i know? welllll....digi told me:

quote:
As this shows, to do this involves telepathic intrusion


his illusions are based on intrusion. but, since he can't enter my mind, no illusions. smile


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Old Post Aug 5th, 2012 03:22 AM
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leonidas
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6th post

quote:
1. The feats I showed were not simply "early" feats. They were from all over his canon. He does not simply instantaneously reform the vast, vast majority of the time.
2. The source of the attack shouldn't matter. Shift saw his friend's gun pointed at him - for one example. The fact that he couldn't reform had nothing to do with being surprised.
3. The fight against the transmuter makes no difference. Once he was shattered in solid form, he was out for an entire issue. If I do that to him, which we know I can (lightsaber, TK, or both), he's dead. Period.
4. No one's completely innocent of this, but there was some selective scans-showing going on. "Here's Shift being dispersed. Now here he is when he gets back, and he's PISSED." Paraphrased, of course, but that was leo's idea. But that's missing the point. The point is, lots of things disperse Shift. Explosions, gunshots, swords, winds, husky sneezes, etc. And showing him when he reforms pages later or issues later means nothing, because if I disperse him to begin with, I can keep the pressure up indefinitely.


lol

1. he actually DOES reform, nearly every time. and the only times he didn't he was surprised or more power was brought to bear than luke possesses. when prepared, he reformed almost instantly FROM BEING AT GROUND ZERO OF A NUCLEAR EXPLOSION! THAT is what he can do when he is NOT surprised

2/3. the source shouldn't matter? huh? shift's injury had EVERYTHING to do with his being surprised. he was backing away from arsenal, not even TRYING to defend when he was shot. katana sliced him (and her sword is likely>lightsaber) from behind and in both he was solid and they were friends. shimmer FORCED his transformation. when he faced her he was immune to her powers. and above all--NONE of those have any relevance here. at all. no expression

4. eh? restating a bunch of irrelevant low-end, contextually-based feats=/=making feats in any way relevant. and my 'idea' was that luke isn't jay. jay DID incapacitate shift, legitimately but briefly. shift underestimated jay and paid for it. it is NOT a feat luke could duplicate though. as i said, luke's powers take time. jay grabbed and spun him at legit comicbook style superspeeds, and it happened so fast shift couldn't alter his form. if luke tried his own little tornado attack (something that has a ton of problems) i WOULD have time to react to it and alter my attack approach. THAT was my idea.

quote:
The reference also says he hurled said maelstrom, several tons worth by that time (minimum) beyond sight. So if you take the feat in its entirety, we're talking about more than a few meters of space, to put it mildly.


not really. once i throw a rock it is no longer in my control. that is all luke did--gathered his energy and hurled them. least that is how i read that. if you have proof otherwise feel free to share.

quote:
Bull. I'm not sure if this is a play on the judges or a legit opinion, but we control our characters. This is not a CIS-on fight. Tourneys have never been that way.

CIS Luke goes to ground for a series of days, trying to reach out in the Force for benevolent lifeforms, and he'd attempt to talk with Shift before attacking. And we know that's not happening. So cut this out.


heh. i just calls em like i sees em. if i kill someone, or superman kills someone in a tourney battle it's different than if luke does so. different how?

from one of the novels: "Fear, anger, aggression: the dark side they are. Yoda had taught him that his methods were as critical as his motives. If he used dark power, even in self-defense, the cost of his soul might be disastrous. He relaxed into the Force. Clinging to control for the sake of his soul and his sanity, he amplified the pitiful will."


like i said, i think things are different for luke. going cis-less could actually CHANGE luke, make him different. now i'm not saying luke won't try and kill me--jedi's DO kill. i just think the MANNER of his attack may still need to be considered. obviously digi disagrees and i'm happy to let you judges come to your own conclusions.


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Old Post Aug 5th, 2012 03:24 AM
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leonidas
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lucky 7

that issue aside, i STILL have a MAJOR issue with luke trying his tk tornado attack, namely HE DOESN'T KNOW I'M A GAS. i've already said i have no doubt he can sense my general presence. but that presence would be everywhere around him. would he think 'omg, my opponent can instantly change into a gas and become completely indistinguishable from the environment!' i have my doubts. ESPECIALLY because no one in the stars wars EU HAS that ability. but i can do better--i can SHOW you this type of leap in logic is NOT one luke would make:


quote:
The corridor itself was deserted, and Luke could sense no one skulking around the corners ahead. Apparently, he had indeed caught them off guard. But his danger sense was still tingling. Something about the corridor? Still, with two groups of enemies behind him, there was nowhere to go but through. Senses alert for a trap, he headed down the corridor. Heíd made it four steps when, without warning, gravity abruptly reversed itself, sending him falling toward the ceiling.

There was no chance for physical or mental preparation. His head and shoulders slammed into the metal, sending a jolt of pain arcing through him, the rest of his body tumbling down with a dull thud and more pain. He gasped for breath-the impact had knocked most of the air out of him-but before he could get more than half a lungful he was falling again, this time sideways toward one of the side walls. He landed hard on his right side, a fresh stab of pain lancing through head and shoulder and hip as he scrabbled around for a handhold. But there was nothing to grip on the smooth metal.



i trust you can see the parallels? luke sees an empty space (the corridor). his danger sense/"precog" tingles but he sees nothing specific. what does he do? HE ACTIVELY LOOKS FOR TRAPS, and walks on. does he think, 'holy crap, there is a guy in there that can turn into a gas, i just know it!'? surprisingly, no, that is NOT his first thought. my abilities would be UTTERLY foreign to him in every way. he would have no way to have prepared for them.

but that paragraph is even more enlightening: even ACTIVELY seeking out traps luke was caught unawares. his danger sense is NOT nearly as good or specific as digi wants you to think. even FOCUSING on it, luke couldn't find the trap. he had NO CHANCE FOR DEFENSE. HE HAD NO SHIELDS, EVEN THOUGH HE GUESSED IT WAS A TRAP. why? because he was focusing on his danger sense, and jedi NEED focus to perform feats (more on this later). the pain he felt kept him from focusing and forming a shield even AFTER the trap was sprung. he couldn't even stop himself from falling!! it took him several seconds and quite a beating to get himself together to defend himself.


match translation: luke gets to the planet, sees nothing, senses danger but can't pinpoint it. if (as he did "on panel") luke decides to try and focus this danger sense HE CAN'T THROW UP A SHIELD. if he throws a shield up, he has to focus on the shield and his danger sense either disappears or is greatly reduced. for all digi's talk about multi-tasking, luke is actually a very poor multi-tasker. it's not his fault--it's the nature of the force and jedis in general. again, more on this in a little bit. but, i think you can see from that quote above, it is unlikely in the EXTREME that luke would even GO for a tornado style attack, mainly because it would never occur to him that i have assumed the form of a massive cloud of atmospheric gas.

i have an advantage here--shift could easily have anticipated all of luke's abilities--luke could NEVER have anticipated mine. THAT is a very large edge in my favor.


so, what if he experimentally tries his tk 'push'? well, think of an empty room. now picture it filled to your knees with smoke. now put a large book in your hands and drop it on the ground. what happens? SOME of the smoke disperses a ways, but the large majority remains intact before simply filling in the void made by the book. i'm the smoke, luke is the book. given the size i have assumed, luke would need a MASSIVE (bigger by far than anything he showed us so far) push to disperse my form in any way at all that could be a problem for me. please recall--I WITHSTOOD FORCED DISPERSION BY A NUKE!! not sure if anyone knows this, but the fireball associated with a nuke can be upwards of 5KM in width! that is a lot, LOT bigger than the city block size i have assumed. there is nothing that i have seen from luke that would indicate his tk has either the necessary force OR range to seriously affect me as a whole. forgetting again the fact that it is unlikely he would simply gather himself and focus on trying to perform THAT level of an attack when he wouldn't have any idea that i've assumed a gaseous state in the first place. and even if he did, it WOULD take some extreme focus to perform that level of tk, and while he was focusing he would be shieldless and i could finish this up quickly and neatly via orifice intrusion. big grin


so, to recap:

--he showed a bunch of completely irrelevant feats and tried to make you think they WERE relevant. i trust everyone will see them for what they were--failed attempts at low-balling

--i DO think there is something to be said for luke's character in this match. unlike most characters, LUKE's character is an INHERENT weakness (like k-nite for kal) and his power is seemingly a direct corollary of it. sure he still kills, but as yoda said, method seems to matter. do with it as you will

--his aforementioned 'tornado' attempt would never occur to him, would take too long for him to perform and would form too slowly anyway

--luke's danger sense is not what digi would like it to be. even while focused solely on it he couldn't perceive a trap right in front of him. there is no proof luke is anywhere NEAR the multi-tasker that digi is implying he is

--luke's tk lacks the power and range to disperse me in my current size and form--if a nuke can't do it, neither can luke

--he has no proof his mind tricks would affect me in this form, and if he DID try tp, he wouldn't be able to maintain his shields and i could end this extremely quickly.

i'll finish up in the next post.


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Old Post Aug 5th, 2012 03:24 AM
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leonidas
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8

okay, so luke is a tough guy to get info on and show in a meaningful way. but i found a few things that i think are pretty relevant to this match up. most of them center around his need to focus or concentrate to perform feats beyond the commonplace. it's a definite weakness, and one that (contrary to what digi would have you believe) PREVENTS multi-tasking--at least complex multi-tasking. here are a few examples:

quote:
Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him-but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now.


quote:
[Originally Posted by Shadows of the Empire pg.225
A horizontal hail of energy bolts stabbed at Luke---The Force let him move faster than he thought possible, and he wove a defensive tapestry with his lightsaber that turned the hard rain away. Ricocheting beams hit and pierced walls, bounty hunters, the floor, the ceiling. It was dangerous to be here, no matter where you stood. Amazed as he was at his speed and skill, Luke knew it couldn't continue. He had to miss only one block and he would be a goner. Sooner or later, they'd get him.



quote:
Luke emptied his mind focusing himself to ignore the obvious targets directly ahead of them, and sent his awareness flowing outward.



quote:
Already focused deep into the Force, he felt an alarmed presence hurry up the hall. As carefully as he listened, he couldn't recognize the individual. Yoda had said fine discernment---even of strangers---would come in time, as he learned the deep silence of self that let a Jedi distinguish others' ripples in the Force.




quote:
But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps. Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.



ok, so, let's look at these scenes a little bit.


1. in the first scene, jacen knew that as soon as luke's concentration faded, so would his power.


2. the second one says EXACTLY what i said previously--namely that luke can NOT use his lightsaber AND keep a shield up at the same time. his focus is on his lightsaber, so no shield is available. likewise, he couldn't use tp+shield, or lightsaber+tp. in short, his multi-tasking sucks. luke knew in the second piece that if he missed parrying a shot, he would die. simple as.


3. in the third one, we see again he needs to ACTIVELY focus the force to perform a task


4. in the 4th, he can sense a stranger because he is ALREADY immersed in the force.


5. we can see punches and kicks hurt him--badly. no healing, no shields, no mind tricks, in short, no multi-tasking combinations of powers, nothing at all to resemble the type of offense digi would have you believe luke is capable of. just straight h2h and a lot of pain.

this isn't luke's fault, it doesn't mean he's not powerful. in star wars terms he is a beast. but in the comic world? luke brings nothing new to the table. luke's powers work slowly compared with the instant and at times massive effects of regular comic book characters, and for more complex feats luke needs to take time to actively focus his abilities (his tornado feat is another example).

more proof? here is luke taken by surprise (no auto-danger sense.....)


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/forcefail.jpg/

and here is a jedi master (a clone actually, but with all the original's power):


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...forcefail2.jpg/

even a MASTER can only focus on one thing. again, no auto, shields. you don't have to look past the movies to see this point. jedi constantly block shots from hitting each other's backs. they focus on their sabers but leave themselves open to other attacks (and of course his saber is effectively useless in this match). for even MORE literary proof of some of luke's vulnerabilities, i'd urge the judges to check out the luke respect forum. go to the very bottom of the first page and see the hell jacen puts luke through in a 1on1 battle. note the distinct lack of shielding/mind tricking, and note the limited and unimpressive uses of tk by both masters.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=532457 (read last post: Fight with Darth Caedus/Jacen Solo)


and for good measure, here is one more:


quote:
Trying not to be distracted by his son-or by the steadily growing shudder of the barrage of dartship.......The shuddering stopped. Luke continued to maintain both illusions, the Force pouring through him like fire, burning more fiercely every moment. He was drawing more energy than his body was conditioned to endure, literally burning himself up from the inside. It was not really a dark side act-to a modern Jedi, the dark side was more a matter of intent than deed-but it felt that way to him. According to Mara, this was what happened to Palpatine, and Luke believed her. He could feel himself aging-his cells weakening, the membranes growing thin and the cytoplasm simmering, the nuclei coming apart.



a couple things here--first, we see again how vital it is he is not distracted when he is performing a complex feat. second, he is EXHAUSTED from maintaining a couple illusions despite channeling EXTRA power for the feat. thirdly, again, it is made clear how intrinsic his CHARACTER is to his powers and abilities. more food for thought.

SO MANY OFFENSIVE OPTIONS.....

in the event someone questions my offense (how that could happen i have no idea....) but, a few posts back, i went through how i thought the match would happen. that really hasn't changed. i have been completely consistent and forced digi to come up with ways to answer my initial attack. but he hasn't come up with answers. to reiterate my thoughts:

we appear on mars. i assume gaseous form. luke senses i'm around but i'm everywhere and his precog can't pinpoint me. he could try and focus on his tp in an effort to better locate my mind, but he would very likely fail (no proof he could succeed) and he would leave himself shieldless. in that time, i could easily cover the distance between us (he might feel me as a soft breeze) and without shields i enter his body as he breathes and finish him. if he elects to keep his shields up and forego tp (there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO PROOF HE CAN DO BOTH simultaneously) then he stills doesn't have proof that the shields are AIR-TIGHT. (there is irony here--digi says i've not stated how i get past his shields--it's been the opposite this whole match!! digi has never ONCE indicated how he doesn't die, even IF he is shielded, or how his shields protect him from my gaseous nature). basically, he stands there knowing danger is everywhere, but uncertain what to do about it, waiting to see what happens and.....falls dead before he understands what is going on. his saber is useless. his shield is useless. his tp is useless. he could try and scatter SOME of my mass, but he wouldn't know where to push IF pushing randomly around him even OCCURRED to him! if he DOES push, i reform almost instantly, still invisible to him, and could simply use some of my mass to become the GROUND under him and attack him from below (IF HE'S PUSHING HE HAS NO SHIELDS).

if, (for some reason i can't fathom), he does push some of me, or his shield does work (he can't do anything but maintain his shield) then i shift form, become a flood of acid that would literally eat the ground beneath us and leave him falling (he would need to focus on protecting against the acid and in turn wouldn't be able to save himself when he was slammed into the ground), become reactive chemicals and blow him into a million pieces (shield strength has not been shown to be nearly strong enough to keep him safe from such an attack), or solidify a monstrous hand and slam and crush him, pinning his arms so he can't even use his saber.


the fluidity of my offense, my ability to change tactics so quickly and use such massively damaging attacks would be far too much for luke to deal with. he has no control of anything in this match and he is CONSTANTLY going to be on the defensive. he is caught in my gaseous form, or caught in my liquid acid flood, or he is a piece of kindling in a massive explosion or he is an insect as i solidify parts of myself and literally smash him to nothing. all of these things would happen one after the other, and all would prevent him from focusing to achieve anything of significance.

and of course all of that is necessary ONLY if he can convince anyone he doesn't die as soon as he takes a couple of deep, force-focusing breaths right at the outset of the match.

shift is unlike anything luke has ever seen. he could never anticipate my powers and has no defense for my versatility and power.


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Old Post Aug 5th, 2012 03:25 AM
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Digi
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Digi Post #6

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i'll not go too much into this issue this time. i presented my reasoning for believing that shift is capable of a feat similar to what rex performed. shift IS rex, literally. here is one more scan to prove how close they were. arsenal is asking 'rex' how much he remembers:


Aaaand if you believe after all the back and forth that leo can actually perform this stunt, which remains dubious at best, I still have pre-cog to prevent me from wading into a trap.

Literally every time Luke makes a Force-enhanced movement, it's with the Force. Every blaster bolt deflected...pre-cog. I think leo drudged up an instance where he didn't predict something. Which is utterly meaningless. Using any amount of Luke's power will result in me avoiding this.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
digi said that for all my talk, the scan showed rex could be affected by a telepath. wellll, not exactly--the scan showed that when rex was knowingly going to FACE a tp, he could develop ways to PROTECT himself.


There's a logical Catch-22 here. Why would he need to protect himself from a telepath if he couldn't be affected?

Judges, do the math. TP is a viable tactic to use against Shift.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
his illusions are based on intrusion. but, since he can't enter my mind, no illusions. smile


I enjoy firsts for myself in tourneys. So here's a good one.

I was wrong. I posted a reference where telepathic intrusion was used to display an illusion. I wrongly extrapolated that that meant he always needed telepathic intrusion. Let's look at some common sense examples:

- The fleet illusion that freaked out Jacen Solo - Jacen was practically Luke's equal at that time. No way in hell Luke mind-tricks him from literally hundreds of miles away.
- Leo actually provided a feat that proves my point:
Trying not to be distracted by his son-or by the steadily growing shudder of the barrage of dartship.......The shuddering stopped. Luke continued to maintain both illusions, the Force pouring through him like fire, burning more fiercely every moment. He was drawing more energy than his body was conditioned to endure, literally burning himself up from the inside. It was not really a dark side act-to a modern Jedi, the dark side was more a matter of intent than deed-but it felt that way to him. According to Mara, this was what happened to Palpatine, and Luke believed her. He could feel himself aging-his cells weakening, the membranes growing thin and the cytoplasm simmering, the nuclei coming apart.

Ok, so leo uses this to show us that Luke was exhausted (more on that later). It's also worth noting that I provided this feat in my very first post. Behold!
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
- During the early days of the Dark Nest Crisis, Luke used the Force to generate a lifelike copy of the Jade Shadow to fool the attacking dartships. This usage of the Force was so extreme, Luke burnt out and his face was temporarily sunken and shriveled like Palpatine's.
- A year later Luke applied the same trick on the DR919a, by then Luke already mastered the technique and would no longer burn out.


So we learn two things. One, there's no way in hell Luke was in the minds of every being he created these illusions to fool. There were hundreds, and Luke's concentration was elsewhere.

Two, check out the 2nd of the feats I posted there. That's right, all of leo's bluster about Luke burning out...negated. Outdated information is outdated, and a selective perspective can create any view seem rational, even when it isn't.

So I was wrong about tp being necessary for illusions. And it's to my advantage that I was, because my earlier assertion actually would've handicapped me, if true.

So. Illusion Storm. Remember when I said I'm going "full-on Mysterio on his ass." That's still on. Shift will have no idea what's going on.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
4. eh? restating a bunch of irrelevant low-end, contextually-based feats=/=making feats in any way relevant. and my 'idea' was that luke isn't jay. jay DID incapacitate shift, legitimately but briefly. shift underestimated jay and paid for it. it is NOT a feat luke could duplicate though. as i said, luke's powers take time. jay grabbed and spun him at legit comicbook style superspeeds, and it happened so fast shift couldn't alter his form. if luke tried his own little tornado attack (something that has a ton of problems) i WOULD have time to react to it and alter my attack approach. THAT was my idea.


I showed literally every showing of Shift not reforming or being blown to bits. There isn't anything else to show. I don't have a secret ace up my sleeve. BUT...

- I'd remind you that I showed something like 8 different scans. It was not an isolated incident.
- I'm not sure where leo gets the idea that a character who gets tossed about and dispersed by all kinds of things is going to actively combat a TK maelstrom. Where is all of his showings does he display the ability to resist such force? Answer: he doesn't.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
not really. once i throw a rock it is no longer in my control. that is all luke did--gathered his energy and hurled them. least that is how i read that. if you have proof otherwise feel free to share.


I thought this was rather obvious, but maybe not:

I'm not just throwing Shift in a single direction. I'm breaking him up into pieces (gas or solid) and separating him by MILES. He's never displayed any kind of ability to reform from that.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
from one of the novels: "Fear, anger, aggression: the dark side they are. Yoda had taught him that his methods were as critical as his motives. If he used dark power, even in self-defense, the cost of his soul might be disastrous. He relaxed into the Force. Clinging to control for the sake of his soul and his sanity, he amplified the pitiful will."

like i said, i think things are different for luke. going cis-less could actually CHANGE luke, make him different. now i'm not saying luke won't try and kill me--jedi's DO kill. i just think the MANNER of his attack may still need to be considered. obviously digi disagrees and i'm happy to let you judges come to your own conclusions.


So what are you trying to argue? That what I have Luke do wouldn't happen? That he'd say "no Digi, I'm a Jedi, we should hit him with half-powered attacks first and try to reason with him."

This is stupid. It's been a good match, everything else has been legit hard-fought debate, but this is just dumb. No tourney has ever worked like this. It's not something the judges need to decide on. CIS is off, period. We make the plans using our characters' powers. They believe it or not based on feats, logic, and debate, but not based on the character's personality.


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Last edited by Digi on Aug 7th, 2012 at 11:34 PM

Old Post Aug 7th, 2012 11:30 PM
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Digi Post #7

I'm not going to quote leo's last couple post, but will address a few of his points.

Defense Against the Dark Arts

In my last post I said I didn't have an ace up my sleeve on Shift's weakness. And that's true enough - I've posted all I have on Shift.

But I do have an ace. Read on...

There was a click, and the speaker fell dead...and in the silence, Luke heard a sound that hadnít been there before. The quiet hiss of escaping gas. He took a deep breath, stretching out to the Force. There were Jedi poison-neutralizing techniques that should be able to handle whatever they were pumping in at him.

Hear that gas? No, it's not poison in the room. It's the air going out of leo's best mode of attack.

Let's add-on to this pile though. It's yet another mode of defense against something Shift could potentially try:
The dormant volcano was dormant no longer. Gouts of orange magma spewed kilometers into the air and rained death down along the side of the mountain. It was a terrifying sight, but what alarmed Luke even more than the racing lava was the cloud above it. It looked like smoke, churning and billowing, gray and thick, but it was nothing so benevolent as mere choking ash. He knew what he was looking at.

Rock so hot it had turned into foam five times hotter than boiling water, moving at more than a hundred kilometers an hour. If this pyroclastic surge overtook them, they would be incinerated instantly, their bodies turned into charcoal. And it would overtake them within minutes.

Their masks prevented the inhalation of the poisonous gases and thick, blinding ash, but could not cool the suddenly superheated air. Luke used the Force to cool it as best he could as he inhaled. Beside and in front of him, he saw two Jedi suddenly start clawing at their throats, falling an instant later. They had inhaled without cooling the air, and Luke felt sympathetic anguish at the agony in which they had died, drowning in their lungsí own fluid. He squeezed his eyes shut and created a barrier around them with the Force to protect them, running forward now using only his other four senses and the Force.


So there's that. Temperature control, poison neutralization, massive shielding against heat that can liquify a person. Luke Skywalker - goddamn swiss army knife.

Also, a brief note about shields. There's no explicit reference of "OMG, thank goodness these shields are air-tight." But, one, The Force is everything and everywhere in the SW Universe, to get a bit philosophical, so it would make sense that they are. Two, I've shown shielding against all sorts of things, including the air itself in this most recent one. Is it 100% proof? No. Is it a reasonable conclusion? Absolutely. I personally don't think it matters due to Luke's abilities, and I also have no plans on letting him get terribly close, but leo made a point of it, so I wanted to address it.

Pre-cog

Last time I skipped feats to talk in general. But just so I'm not called out on lack of feats:
But now the heat---and sweaty cold---of the incident had passed, the fear oozed back, the taste of it sour in him. He could have been blown apart. If not for the Force warning him, he would have been fried, would have winked out like an overloaded glowblub, never knowing what had hit him. Dead, gone, no more.

Running Speed

Awesome, I found one:
Using the Force to leap from rock to rock so swiftly he practically flew also relieved him of the need to watch his footing. He covered the two kilometers in about two minutes.

To put that in perspective, that's between 2-3 times faster than world record pace for a comparable distance. And he can go even faster in small bursts.

Multi-tasking & Options

I posted the multi-tasking feat earlier. Judges, if you missed it, it's back in post #1. Luke was doing three incredibly complex things at once when he was the equivalent of a Jedi pup (it was immediately after the movies, before he had become a Master).

Leo threw out a few feats of his own. Nice research, btw. Glad you found something. A couple notes on those:
- The Jacen Solo (aka Darth Caedus) telekinetic pinning was an amazing feat. Don't let leo say that it shows he can't multi-task. Caedus was probably the 2nd most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the time. Of course it took all of Luke's concentration. He was going against a near-equal.
- A couple of the others are similarly epic in scope. Like, the illusions that took a lot of concentration? Those were gigantic starships, the kind leading a fleet into battle. I've shown Luke casually producing illusions in comics and books, over long distances, to Force users, to Droids (another point against needing telepathy for his illusions). I can't show anything else. They're detailed, powerful, and easy to accomplish.

But the bottom line is, I'm going to be pushing the boundaries of Luke's abilities, which includes ridiculous multi-tasking. Of course he'll be straining, working for it. Because I want to get everything out of him.

One more:
Luke looked out at the incoming pirates, a sudden tightening sensation in his stomach. There were many options, of course. He could reach out with the Force and damage the shipsí control surfaces, crippling them. He might even be able to wrench off whole hull plates or deform the weapons emplacements, tearing them apart with the Force alone. Or he could simply reach inside to the crewsí minds, turning them into helpless observers or even forcing them to surrender. For a Jedi Master with the Force as his ally, there were no limits. No limits at all.

Nuanced manipulation, raw Force power ripping apart starships, telepathic takeover. I have options. That's how I see this fight.


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Last edited by Digi on Aug 8th, 2012 at 12:28 AM

Old Post Aug 8th, 2012 12:23 AM
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Digi Post #8

Here's what I see as the fundamental disconnect in leo's plan. He's, what, lurking and waiting. I've shown senses that put anything and anyone to shame - Luke could sense footprints and environmental life miles away - yet leo wants you to think I won't find a poisonous gas cloud on a deserted planet.

I have pre-cog. Unless Shift has a power to turn that off (I'm quite sure he doesn't), I get some kind of warning for everything in this fight. An ambush, a tp bomb, anything. Ignoring it is like ignoring the two times ever that a writer failed to make Pete's spider-sense work. That wouldn't even be considered in a tourney match, nor should it here.

Shift doesn't hold himself together super well. We know this. Even when he reforms quickly, he first gets dispersed. So, like, I probably don't even need the Force Tornado. Those casual palm-strike tk blasts I posted would suffice.

Then there's the tornado feat. Go read it again please if you only read it once. How in the world does that not just end his sh*t? He takes individual pieces and rips them to shreds, all while crushing a home, a starfighter, and whirling them together. Leo talked a lot about build-up time, but not only does it not really take that long, there's no indicator of time in the feat and it actually appears as though the house was crushed in one sudden swoop of Force power. And it represents a much larger output of energy than is needed to wreck Shift. I split him in 2, 3, 4 parts, stir well in an unholy maelstrom, then throw them miles away from one another. Auto-win via indefinite dispersal.

I think we can say fairly certainly that telepathy could be used as an attack. Or that a lightsaber, the end-all energy melee weapon in fiction-dom, would **** him up if he chose to confront it.

My reactions are superhuman, I'm doing three things before he does one, and probably three things at once.

I don't think he's displayed enough power to get through my shielding. I don't think he's displayed evidence that he could stop any sort of energy, melee, or TK attack. Hell, even if the tornado takes time to work up (it doesn't), how is he stopping it? What does he do that could possibly stop me as I swirl him into a mess?

Like this:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3388/67362167.jpg
...which I've learned through comparison is more than just a dozen tons or so (similarly sized rocks are hundreds of tons). That's me grabbing part of his gas cloud and throwing it across the landscape into incoherence. Casually.

He's powerless, up against a stronger force (pun intended).

...

I genuinely believe Luke can just wander in like a badass and raw Force-power his way to victory. Shift is outmatched. But I don't take chances. That's why I'm utilizing my speed, senses, pre-cog, and all methods of attack. It's why I've shown how to defend against Shift, and why my attacks are more powerful and varied. And that's why I win.

Believe!
(please log in to view the image)


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Last edited by Digi on Aug 8th, 2012 at 12:57 AM

Old Post Aug 8th, 2012 12:53 AM
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