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KMC Tournament - DarkSaint vs beatboks
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The Man of Tomorrow

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Diablo Corps

KMC Tournament - DarkSaint vs beatboks


Power Level & Format: 2-character amalgam. Low Herald each.

Post Limit: 5

CIS & PIS is OFF!: We are drafting 2 characters, and its abilities. You the participant take ownership of how said characters & abilities will be realized in combat.

Character Knowledge: Contestants are fully aware the characters drafted, including its history, and weaknesses.
Also the Amalgam can use powers as good as the originals.

Amping Rules: Disallowed. Materials that aid a power (i.e. Jeffries/adamantium) are allowed. Power amping is not (i.e. The Ray + Kara)

Note: Amping is a state of empowerment fueled by some source source, that increases a characters physical prowess or ability.

Tech Creation & Non-Autonomous Constructs/Summons: Low Herald limit.

No you can not summon an entire realm or dimension.

You are in control of the character, but you are also confined to what that character has accomplished historically.

You can't borrow feats from someone else, even if your similar characters.

X-Man can not Borrow Feats Cable.
G.L. Hal can not Borrow Feats from G.L. John.

Prep: You are given time to raise shields. Otherwise NO prep time.

Creating gear can only take place in the heat of battle, after the bell has rung.

TP: Low Herald

Speed: Up to lightspeed.

Banned Powers: Reality Warp, Time Manip., Duplication, Power Copying, Autonomous Constructs (tech or magic), Memory Retention

Note: Space Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, and the Speed Force is allowed provided that the drafted characters are low herald and below.

Functional Immortals are Banned: Functional immortals such as Lobo, Mr. Immortal, Deadpool are disallowed or voided.

Standard Gear Rule Character comes in with what he is historically known for caring.

Non standard gear must be created you NOT grab it from your lab, and equip yourself with it.

BFR BFR is banned.

Self BFR is only good for phasing.

Good for 1 second.


Date: July 15 - July 29
DarkSaint vs beatboks
DarkSaint: Winter & Mortal Hercules
beatboks: Arion & Animal Man
Location: Earth - Roman Colosseum
Judges: Bentley, Digi, quanchi112


Old Post Jul 15th, 2015 09:31 PM
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The Man of Tomorrow

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Diablo Corps


DarkSaint: Winter & Mortal Hercules

So. Time to get down to the fight.

Have to make my 5 posts count, so I will attempt to be brief and thorough.
As some of you may have gathered, I have drafted an amalgam of Winter, from Stormwatch, and Hercules, after the Chaos War.

Whilst Hercules is well known, Winter is not – and so, here is a scan from his bio – purely for the edification of those who wish to know more.

Salient points – he is an Olympic-level gymnast (for the Russians, no less, not some backwater country), Spetsnaz trained, and is able to absorb, AMPLIFY, and redirect energy. He is also able to send the negative version of the energy back at you – so if you bombard him with solar energy, he can, if he wanted to, send anti-sunlight back at you. IOW, whilst you may think he’ll amp you…guess again.

What energies can Winter absorb?

  1. Sound:

  2. Radiation (note how he amplifies it):

  3. Another radiation scan, for goth boobies:

  4. Solar:

  5. Psychic (btw, this is Dane from Wetworks, a pretty powerful TP user, and who’s pretty serious):

  6. Kinetic (also, a reaction speed feat. Bullet-time):

  7. Heat (apart from all the ones we’ve seen so far):
    What is so impressive about that feat? Well, that death machine that Winter was absorbing heat etc from was this:
    It was an absorber itself. Moreover, it was absorbing Hellstrike and Farenheit’s powers – so was actually getting stronger:
    It just made Winter stronger:

  8. Plasma (from Hellstrike):

  9. Justice Stone energy (whatever the hell that is, lol. Note how after Winter was done with him, he was completely drained. Think Green Lantern types):

  10. Chi (from a rather serious Grail):

  11. And….magic – which will obviously make a difference in this fight:

I am sure we can all agree, then, that if it is energy, Winter can and will absorb it. Whilst magic may hurt me, as Winter himself said – it’s like eating spicy food. Hardly life threatening, especially given some of the pain levels my characters have undergone (we will get to this later). IOW, it won’t affect my performance in the slightest.


Next, I combine him with Herc. After the Chaos War, he burnt his godliness out, and became mortal. Taking an RPG, he broke into Ares’ weapon caches, and stole weapons, which he used on Earth – which is what I am drafting. Of course, the MA skills of Herc are still present, combined with the MA/gymnastic skills of Winter.

What weapons does Wincules have?

  1. The arrows of Hercules. Tipped with the feather of the Stymphalian birds, they can pierce all armours, and are also dipped in the blood of the Hydra, the deadliest poison known to the gods:

  2. The helmet of Hades. Which can hide you from all sight, even from other Olympians:

I of course have more equipment – but these two are the ones I will be using in this post. Later posts will reveal the rest of my bag.

The Match

The rules state:


Prep: You are given time to raise shields. Otherwise NO prep time.

I use the time, not to raise my shields, but to don the helm of Hades. I now become invisible to all sight. Now, when Herc wore it, he would be given away by his boasting:

Note how Shaw, a premier energy absorber, was unable to detect Hercules – until he opened his big mouth. There will be no such mistake made here – Spetsnaz soldiers can be pretty damn stealthy. But just to be sure, WHEN (and not before) the bell rings, I use my absorption skills - as shown before – to absorb all emissions from me. Sound, magic, the lot. I am now completely undetectable.

Note, I am not amping myself with my weaponry – merely cloaking myself. Much like how an F-22 can minimise and cloak itself by using heat absorbent materials in its construction (to hide from heatseeking missiles etc), I cloak myself in the same way.

Now, what else can Winter do with energy absorption?


After the bell rings, I take to the air. No pesky footprints or anything of that sort to give me away. With no energy emitting from a narrow radius around me, I am completely invisible in all senses of the word. Here are two kids (New Gods, admittedly) who by simply bending light and air, was able to stay invisible to Arion:

He cannot detect me, and if he cannot detect me, he cannot target and attack me, whether by spells, physical, or psychic attacks – not that they would even work.

I then let loose with my deadly arrows. Having drafted Hercules, I have his skills – and he was the greatest mortal warrior for thousands of years. I trust I do not need to showcase his MA skills, or skills with a bow. But I don’t need Hawkeye-esque skills – I just need to shoot beatboks in the head. Here is Herc using his bow – whilst under gunfire (so a pretty good skill feat). Note how he was actually hit by bullets, and still managed to fire an arrow THROUGH a gun barrel:


In summary – I am completely undetectable, with beatboks completely unable to target me with any spells or attacks. By the time he sees the arrows (because, obviously, they will cease to be invisible once they leave the AOE of my helmet), it would be too late. And even a glancing graze, would be fatal. Let Herc himself tell you how Hydra blood feels – and this was when he was immortal. Beatboks will be unable to form even coherent sentences, let alone spells, to focus and attack me. That’s if he does not die outright.

Of course, this will all be done at high speed. Match starts, I take to the air, and fire my arrows off. I will NOT be giving beatboks the opportunity to focus and use his ‘sight beyond sight’ or whatever to try and detect me. I’ve shown Winter to have pretty good reflexive feats, and Herc to have pretty good archery skills, literally under fire. Even a grazing wound would cause incredible pain, if not a fatality.

He may, of course, in his opening strategy, raise shields. I will deal with them, if so. But I doubt he can outreact an incredibly experienced, bullet-timing, highly trained soldier, who may strike him from any angle (I'm still flying, remember), undetected. That, of course, is my offence. My defence will be covered in later posts.


Old Post Jul 15th, 2015 09:32 PM
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The Man of Tomorrow

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Diablo Corps


beatboks: Arion & Animal Man

So only prep allowed is to throw up shield, Obviously I'm doing that before entering the battlefield

Once on the battlefield using Arion's illusions i will create an image of myself in my current position as I use his ability to dimensionally travel with magic to a secluded place on the battlefield where I will also create a concealment spell to hide me. I will further cast a spell that makes another illusion of me appear elsewhere on the battlefield any time my adversary starts to realize it's an illusion he's going after.

During the teleportation I will maintain the shield around the illusion while erecting a new one around my true location.
Here we see Arion maintaining a shield around part of Atlantis under attack while also fighting several others. Showing he can have shields elsewhere while using his magic on another task.

While Hidden I will use the spell of Ra (equivalent to using Strange's eye of Agmotto or Fate's Orb) to learn all I can about my adversary.
I will Simultaneously use Animal man's powers to stack animal powers to make myself as strong, fast and durable as the limits of the tourney will allow. I will also increase mu reaction time by altering relative time rate and gain Shape shifting power from a Protien as well as the power to control my mass, emit sonic attacks, and energy attacks. All my five senses will also be increased to the maximum as well as regeneration
Here in Rotworld with access to most of the animals he'd use for speed denied because they simply don't exist he can still make himself fast enough to come close to a weakened Flash. This is stacking the powers of creatures NOT known for speed.
Here he alters his respective time rate to make his reactions "10 times". He didn't even choose the animal with she shortest life span.
Mass control

Using Arion's magic I will alter my sword (Arion's only standard gear aside from his chest gem) to become the most durable metal that exists.

Arion's magic will summon the dimensional serpent like entity that he used once against a wizard Conqueror to attack my adversary.

I will also set all the elements against my adversary
I'll also be using the second tactic in that scan to dull my opponents attack.
Not mind wipe per se, just to make them slow their attack as my adversary in this doesn't have a "primitive mind" like these beasts.

Before I attack I will conjure a few more illusions to attack and distract my foe.

Another dimensional hop behind my opponent I will employ the sword skills of Arion to sever limbs of Darksaint (one of the things Hec has trouble healing from) with my indestructible sword wielded by herald level strength and near light speed and by a master swordsman.
Arion literally became master of the sword in only two lessons. he was a natural swordsman and as shown her could fight even without sight. There are other scans of him before this training matching and beating trained warriors after only having watched Wynde and Chian fight.

Combining my strength, speed, skill with the ability to vastly increase my mass (as well as that of my sword) I can achieve a highly "IMS" In this case the I stands for increased not Infinite and the S instead of P stands for strike not punch. An indestructible sword striking my opponent at near light speed with the mass of said strike vastly increased will have little to no problem severing all my opponents limbs in my opening attack.

This will be while my opponent is busy fighting the elements, dimensional serpents, multiple illusions of me attacking him.

He literally won't know what hit him and with the Eyeof Ra Spell, I'll no exactly where to amke teh most devastating strikes.


Old Post Jul 15th, 2015 09:36 PM
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ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
Location: Australia

Post 1

Beautiful, just as anticipated my opponent has prepare dfor completely the wrong type of attack. Expecting that I would attack with magical spells, and magical energy attacks that he could turn back in me.

What a shame I am not foolish enough to have made such attacks against someone who could use them against me. All he has is a protective field protecting an illusion that he would send against the illusion. Or illusions that cannot harm but only distract and occupy him so when absorbed and sent back are of no harm to me.

Seriously relying on invisibility and thinking that somehow prevent me from targeting him? If only I were limited to mere sight as a means of sense. Does my opponent forget that with animal mans powers I have and can stack the senses of the entire animal kingdom, throughout I might add the entire universe??

How does invisibility protect you from the radar sense of a bat, the smell you will give off that a dog (not to mention several animals with far greater sense of smell) can detect. Does his heart stop beating ?? With the stacked hearing senses I will have with animalmans powers my hearing will make Daredevil look deaf as well as blind.

Darksaint's own scans prove that his invisibility doesnt protect him from the senses other than sight or Shaw would not have struck him. It wont matter how stealthy you are when I can hear you sweat or you hear beating from miles away. Can smell the faintest scent you give off, can boumce sound waves off your physical form and know your exact position from them.

What does this mean, it means you will be ckmpletely and utterly surprised and unprepared whe I disect you into a dozen pieces because you would not even know I can find you. When I originally sent my write up to Id I was going to make the sword admantium, I decided instead to just say the most durable metal so I had room to play/ alter based on the attack (thinking about the energy attacks of Winter). I'm glad I did because the sword will be an alloy, made of admantium, vibrainium, nth metal and promethium. The durability of admantium and vibrainium will ensure it can cut through anything, the ability of promethium, Nth, and vibrainium to absorb energy and disperse it will mean the inly defense you could have against it (even if you were capable of reacting to my speed and my completely unexpectedly accurate attack) in Winter'sWinter's energy blasts will be all but nought.

End thread, I won before the battle began. I have destroyed you the instant I attacked and you had no means to defend yourself

Old Post Jul 16th, 2015 12:24 AM
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Senior Member

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Post 1
Oh. Oh my. So many holes in Beastboks’ post. Which one to attack first? To paraphrase the King from Alice in Wonderland, let’s start at the beginning, and continue until the end.

Never did I say I was using SIGHT to aim at beatboks. Illusions? Pah. I was using my energy sensory abilities – focussing on the most powerful source of energy on the battlefield.

Here is Winter using his abilities to sense energy sources, and track them. There is another, but you will see it later:

Unless all his illusions have exactly the same energy levels (doubtful, as he hasn’t accounted for the fact that I am sensing energy NOT sight, plus he wouldn’t want to divide his energy up so triflingly, not to mention, it’s illegal to duplicate) there will be one facsimile on the battlefield with more energy than the others. This was what I would be aiming for. My opening showed I am familiar with magic. This post shows I can track energy and energy sources. Therefore, a mere visual illusion is nothing to one such as I.

Next, his speed. I agree, attempting to keep up with a weakened Flash is a great speed feat for Animal Man. On the ground. If we were in a footrace, that would be quite useful – I specifically prepped for that, however, in my initial post. I am in the air. My opening post missed a scan, so I will pop it here – Hercules under fire, shooting a gun barrel:

He may as well have drafted that great animal, the headless chicken, for all his running around would help him.

Mass control? He’s drafting mass control? My dear judges, Id specifically said the match was taking place on our Earth. My biology knowledge is lacking these days (as is my chemistry, but we will get onto that in a moment), but try as I might, I am unable to recall ANY animal that can alter its mass. Sure, Beastboks’ powers work as well as on DC Earth (as Id clarified in a later post) – I took that to mean he can access any normal Earth animal just as easily as Animal Man, despite there being no ‘Red’ morphogenetic field. Of course, this then extends onwards to the most ‘durable metal that exists’. Some kind of titanium alloy, perhaps? No matter. I have the sword of Peleus, which slices through anything:

Here is Herc slicing through things:

Hobgoblin’s reaction would be the same as Beastboks’. Only, his head would be off.

Next, this….dimensional serpent. From the scan, it looks as though Arion had been trapped in an alternate dimension, opened a portal home, and the creature followed. VERY different from summoning it. Even if he DID summon it – well, Herc has dealt with monsters before. An arrow would suffice – after all, it IS the deadliest poison known to gods.

A telepathic ‘dulling’ attack? Yeah, see point #5 of the energies section in my opening post. Not to mention, this would be an additional giveaway as to which illusion was the main Beastboks.

Fighting skills – meh. Literally. This is Herc we are talking about.

As for his other senses – no, I did not forget about them. Remember, I am absorbing all sound. What use are the radar sense of a bat, when I absorb them (i.e., nothing to bounce back – the very method by which stealth aircraft operate)? What use is the hearing of a…sharp eared animal, when all sound is absorbed? I DID say, all emissions are being absorbed. Smell of a bloodhound? My dear Beastboks, that is dependent on molecules evaporating off my body/equipment. But with no heat being given off by me, there is no evaporation – and hence, no smell. I was never relying on just ‘sight’ invisibility – I knew that there would be other senses to rely on (I even provided the scan of Shaw hearing him). Hence, the comprehensive list of energies I can absorb, and the assertion that by doing so, ALL relevant energies will be absorbed.

Adamantium? Vibranium? Nth metal? Promethium? Fine metals. I consulted my periodic table here on Real Earth. I came up short, unfortunately.
Chin up, though, old chap. Your post wasn’t ALL bad. I’d give it a solid B.
First, your speed (assuming, of course, you KNOW where I am). I am assuming you SOMEHOW know where to strike, IF you can detect me (no evidence of that yet) and IF my arrows don’t hit you first (no evidence of that either). All your actions:

  1. throwing up shields,
  2. throwing up illusions,
  3. shielding said illusions,
  4. Using the eye of Ra,
  5. summoning serpents,
  6. weather attacks,
  7. mental attacks,
  8. sword creation,
  9. dimensional teleporting,
  10. drawing on animals A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc,
  11. using said animals A/B/C/D/E/F/G etc

all takes time to reach out and find, then implement. This holds true even if you first reached out to find speedy animals – that still takes time. In that time, I’ve –

  1. flown up
  2. aimed
  3. fired

All with trained, master precision.

So, highly doubtful you’re even halfway down that list before an arrow (or three hits you). But, for the sake of debate, let’s say you managed to fire off some attacks.

Here is Herc, at point blank range, raising my next toy against an attack by….Zeus. THE Zeus. This toy, is the shield of Perseus. Unbreakable (note, I haven’t even started talking about its other properties):

And here is the reaction feat:

Deflected twice, at close range.

Here is Winter absorbing energy, without consciously knowing it:

As you can see, it rejuvenated and healed him. Here is another, showing how even when snuck attacked, his powers kick in automatically:

As for being stabbed? Ain’t nothing but a thang:

That last scan, incidentally, was to be held off for later – but I can show it now. It shows how Winter doesn’t have to be the target of the energy to absorb it (so not like Shaw, or Bishop). If I can detect it, I can drain it from a distance – even from powerful energy users like the Sword. And even if it wasn’t being fired at me. That was an older, arguably weaker Winter, by the way. Subsequently, he got a fresh, young new body (yum!)

Maybe all that damage you THINK you would be able to do, will…overload me?
Here is Winter absorbing…three? nukes. Overloading is not an issue (and this isn’t even his best absorption feat. Note too, his energy sensing abilities in the first scan. Like following a sidewalk):

The very next page:
‘Russia endures’. Hail 90s art!!

So in summary – even IF you manage to detect me (no proof yet), manage to get all your actions done before an arrow hits you (no proof yet) THEN manage to attempt to attack me (me, Herc, the master MA) – IF you somehow then manage to get past my shield, I’d simply absorb it.

But if sword to sword is what you wish to do – sure. Unlike you, I have brought an actual unbreakable shield, with an unbreakable sword. You have…I’m not quite sure, as real Earth does not have them.


Old Post Jul 16th, 2015 07:31 AM
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ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
Location: Australia

Allow me to fill the holes (that aren't present) for you.

1. Exactly how do you think "energy detection" is assisting you in finding me?? Obviously you think I have some massive energy field. Well I don't.
If it was Arion in the early issues of his run, yes. At this time he had been brought back from being a living star and was full of stellar energy that was replenished by light. Unfortunately for you he burned that up in issue 10od hi seires

He sacrificed all his power to save the world from the entity that was devouring the sun's energy and causing the ice age.

He would spend most of his series searching for power again

He would find the crystals that held a piece of his father's essense and with it a portion of his power. he would use these one by one to work magic. eventually using all but one (which was left for him to find in the sunken city of Atlantis in the current time in Action comics when he used it to take Superman back in time to help him fight Chaon)

He would find his fathers citadel and all it's power. This he would burn up in an all in battle with his brother Garn to protect Atlantis.

He would get the weaver to reconnect him to magic and the many colored threads.
This is a limited connection because the magic energy isn't "his" it is in everything, it links all life and he just draws upon it. He eventually used Too much and cut himself off from it again.

He would tap a portion of his mothers power in the Darkworld (her dimension while fighting her. Again burn it up to destroy her.

Finally upon the request of another the weaver would reconnect him to the magic again.
He was warned it would not happen again. Arion hasn't lost his power again since then so he has learned his lesson. Not that it matters I'm not bound by his character I act with my own mind and common sense.

So you see I have no more energy than a tree, an ant, a bird in the sky. In fact it is from them and every other living thing around connected to the many colored threads that my magic power comes.

Quite frankly the illusions and the force field around them will possess a LOT more energy than my build will. Afraid to say energy detection simply wont cut it. As I've said for quite some time those who use the feats of Mordru possessing Arion or of Morgane Le Fey doing the same and him using THEIR power, wont aid you in a debate where the character isn't them.

So you see, I didn't account for that fact because I expected it. I was allowing you to dig yourself a bigger hole, and you just dropped right in.

Mass control? He’s drafting mass control? My dear judges, Id specifically said the match was taking place on our Earth. My biology knowledge is lacking these days (as is my chemistry, but we will get onto that in a moment), but try as I might, I am unable to recall ANY animal that can alter its mass. Sure, Beastboks’ powers work as well as on DC Earth (as Id clarified in a later post) – I took that to mean he can access any normal Earth animal just as easily as Animal Man, despite there being no ‘Red’ morphogenetic field.

You mention Id's clarification but ignore the context of it.



We assume the powers of Animal Man work just as well as those in DC Earth.

Fortunate aren't I that he actually used ME as an example. So ON DC Earth since about the mid 90's Animalman can draw on the powers of any animal in the DC Universe. He hasn't been limited to earth for a LOOOOONG time.

Id specifically said that 'the powers of Animal man work JUST as well as on DC earth". So since that's how they work there, that is how they work here.
His connection to Earth and everything else got a Lot clearer.

Not to mention it specifically mentioned that we would be limited to the feats of the character not borrowing feats, you want to argue that certain feats don't count???


I have the sword of Peleus, which slices through anything:

And I have intangibility
So what exactly does your sword do, but pass harmlessly through me

Hobgoblin’s reaction would be the same as Beastboks’. Only, his head would be off.

Your making this far to easy. i hold back just enough info so that you push a line just to have it cut off for you.
Here we see in Rotworld Buddy actually reacting to the weakened Flash. In taking on the speed I already increased my reaction, then I made my reactions ten times faster again, by making everything seem to be in slow motion. You literally will have no way of actually tagging me. Every attack you could make will look like a snail moving through a garden, doped to the eyeballs.

While on that, clearly it can't take long to stack speed, or Flash would have been nowhere to be seen.

The dimensional serpent was in a dimension that he was BFR'd to. he saved it and became friends with it and brought it back yes. summoning a creature that was loyal to him, wont be an issue.

You must have an amazing body if your breath has no odor at all. Odor comes from more than JUST heat. Absorbing sound, would be as much a give away as emitting sound, there would be an "epicenter of silence". how about the fact that Arion simply draws on the energy of life so unless your suddenly not living he can feel the energy that he would use from you (not himself).

all takes time to reach out and find, then implement

I love how you played with the order to remove the fact that some GIVE time for the others.
I mean seriously in this one panel he's creating several magical counters at the same second. transforming swords, creating shield, creating trip lines. THIS when he's taking the time to be passive about how he defends himself. So lets assume I only do four things at once (as I stated) illusion, teleport, cloak/concealment spell, shield. I then have time to do the others. Obviously it doesn't take too long to stack for speed
Here we see him maintaining shield around part of Atlantis, while blasting 7 attacks at once. this also shows his 6th sense. It literally leads him to where a "man is" even before he uses the eye of ra.

You may have missed it in the OP, but in the scan of the control of nature/weather he also sensed a danger
Note the page number (9)
Here is the danger a couple of pages later after he has flown straight toward where it will be.
Notice how it's page 12. There was one page of adds IIRC, but still he could sense a space craft still in space and meet it where it came to his city. Finding you was never a problem, Arion has a danger sense vastly better than Spidey's. Look at how that helps Spidey react, add on my speed, my enhanced time rate.

Combat feats.
Oh that's right we just assume Herc is a better combatant because he's Herc?? or is it that age old argument that he has so many centuries experience. Well that one falls flat. Herc was born in ancient Greece. Arion was at Atlantis in the time of the ice age (how do we know? because HE stopped it). Not to mention that at that point he was 100,000 years old. By the time Herc was Born Arion was already older with More experence than Herc has now and Arion was still around in the 90's
The simple fact is there aren't much in the way of combat feats any better than I've shown for Herc. He never uses much in the way of moves more the wrestling. Even if he had a slight advantage it can't come close to accommodating for the speed, reaction and strength of my build.

I'm not using energy, I have none to detect, nothing that would be "noticeable" certainly. The energy you'd have to be able to detect me with is miniscule and insignificant.
Show me scans of Winter draining the almost unnoticeable energy of life from an ant, fly, blade of grass, a tree. That's where the power for my magic comes, since I have no intention of over doing it and loosing my magic like Arion had many times it won't be anything you can use.

Old Post Jul 16th, 2015 04:31 PM
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ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
Location: Australia

posting for fouled image links (as best I remember)

Burned out power first time

Weaved to many colored threads 1
Then again towards the end of his run. Warned not again
Multiple magic effect at once
split magic several ways senses danger and to is source
Repost of the one from opener where he sensed danger (page 9)
two pages of story later having flown to it
not even sure why I loaded this one

Animal man
tags flash showing reaction increased with speed
Universal animal link
reconnected with all
I think that was it

Old Post Jul 16th, 2015 11:26 PM
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Senior Member

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Post 2
Judges, please, I beg of you, don’t count beatboks’ fouled up post against him, don’t let it sway your judgement to vote for me.

His weak, feeble arguments alone should suffice stick out tongue

Once more, I refer you to my opening post. Note the whole range of energies I can manipulate, and absorb. I am NOT limited to magical energy. Unless the illusions casted by Beastboks ALL have the exact energy signatures – heat, magic (what an on-season red chest gem you are sporting! Very ‘now’. Standard equipment, I believed you said.), sound – the point I am trying to make is, ALL the illusions need to look the same ‘energy-wise’. THAT is how I would see that they are not all equal, and can target with the arrows. And as I mentioned, you are still sporting a lovely red gem, packed with power. Even if depleted, as earlier, there are still a whole range of other energies to sense – and that would be different from the others (which is the main point). The magnitude does not matter.

Post 2 from each of us, however, and it is already descending into nit-picking – the bane of many a BZ. As I am a magnanimous opponent, I will give you the altered mass and other DCU-animal-drawing abilities – as it actually helps me. Some might say, it AMPS me. I will keep this post shorter than the others.

I have, in my opening post, showed Winter absorbing something as focussed as a bullet. In Post 1, I showed him absorbing three nukes’ worth of energy, as well as absorbing it from a distance (with the Sword, and alternate reality Union) and unconsciously (with Apollo, and when the Sword tried to catch me by surprise).

Bring your sword to me. I agree 100% (strangely enough, for a BZ – I knew I’d surprise you guys!) that any showings of skill are largely moot between the two. I am not a fan of the Wushu, flashy, dancing styles of martial arts, anyway. Who is more effective – the guy who ends the fight with one slash/stab, or the guy who spends five panels waving and dancing around? Hence, I would call them equal (if that – Herc is still superior ;-))

If you do manage to bypass my shield, and hit me (remember, Zeus with his powers, at point blank range, were still unable to get me) – even unconsciously, I can absorb the kinetic energy. Here again, is Winter passed out, and Apollo’s energy merely rejuvenates him, to the point he subsequently beats him senseless in the fight:

I also 100% agree that all your illusions and force field will have a LOT more energy than your build will. 110% agree.

Here is Winter absorbing the ambient energy around him:

Radiation, sure, but energy is energy. You will simply be a spicy burrito to me. Create as many forcefields and as many illusions as you want. They don’t have to be touching me, or be directed at me:

Mmmm. Spicy. All that magic is now mine.

With this energy swirling around the battlefield, I can then heal myself:

I wager a strong, strapping build such as yours would have way more energy than simple flames.

As shown before, you won’t overload me. Unless of course, you think that you can do better than three nukes’ worth.

Moreover, not only will you have to overload me, you would have to also overload my HF, which would be working overtime thanks to all this delicious energy.

And then. And then…I would be incredibly amped.

Trap card, activated.

Damage output? What can I do with so much energy from these Increased Mass Strikes, stacked with magic?

Booooring. The audience came here to be entertained! Show them something more, Wincules!!



Yeah, it’s happened. Poor Rome. 800 miles of pure destruction. Didn’t you say you would be dimensionally porting to be right next to me? Hope all your shields are still up - wait - didn't I drain them? Oh right, I did.


Old Post Jul 17th, 2015 09:43 AM
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Old Post Jul 18th, 2015 05:16 AM
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Post 3.1

So let me guess, the plan is to keep pushing the same argument that has been proven flawed and hope that the judges just forget the flaws??

Doubtless with the sun gem your referring to things like this
During his sun powered era the Gem was bright when his power was high and dark when it wasn't. Once he completely expended his stellar driven energy to stop the ice age that was no longer the case.
As I said, all he has is his life force which is all the stone truly is
His sun gem stone was the "ball of crimson life energy" that is Arion.
For proof
See how bright and red the "Sun Gem" looks here. In the very same panel that states he's lost his power.

So post the loosing of his stellar connection, no more power than any normal human from it.

Even if there were any real energy "within" Arion as part of my build you wouldn't see it
Only the second sight of a sorcerer can see the many colored threads that are Arion's power. Please show me when Winter exhibited such a second sight??
as for heat in illusions
Animals are instinctual, they would not have flown from an illusion of fire without heat.
Granted the illusions he casts when he is completely depowered (no many colored threads etc) are quite wanting and were stated to not. I didn't come into a low herald match with him at street level/low meta status.
So I don't have any energy for you to sense. Even if I did it is a type that can only bee seen by the second sight of magic.

All of which is forgetting the fact that i said my very first move before teleporting is a concealment spell. my energy would be concealed from you

noun: concealment; plural noun: concealments

the action of hiding something or preventing it from being known

So you wont sense me.

Oh, you'll GIVE me the power I drafted will you. There are so many powers that Animal man gives that I really don't think you have a concept of what I'm capable of.

By taking on the power of a protien, I became a shape shifter. or How about
Here, by using the M-field power that is Bwanna Beast's Baddy alters his white blood cells. You talk about Winter absorbing energy and healing himself, How does he manage this when I merge say you white blood cells with the most dangerous virus' or bacteria in existence??? Effectively turning any healing factor into sure death.

I could also take another line with this.
Buddy being the animal rights activist he is would never do this, But I am not so bound. I could turn this power to ramp up the killer instincts of every animal and bird for miles and have them attack you.

Other attacks open to me.
Create a narcotic fog to put you to sleep.
Bind you in "Deedra's chains " (Arion's equivalent of the crimson bands of Cyttorak, even when Garn was captured to free himself he had to call on a powerful darklord.

So far my opponent has failed to come up with a viable means of countering me.

what we have are a lot of "not gonna works"

1. He will sense me because of my energy. Energy I don't have and will be anywhere BUT where my build is.
2. He will absorb my energy attacks and wield them against me, OH wait. That's right, I didn't use any.
3. He will absorb by kinetic energy to save himself from my physical attacks. Light speed (limit for the tourney and I AM capable of building my speed to more). light speed times 40 Tons using the mass altering on Overdrive) IMO would be severely beyond the limits shown for the characters I fight.
4. Somehow an inpenitrabel shield can always block an attack going speed of light, can also protect from teleportation.
It would be literally childs blay to get behind you and attack where you aren't ready for it.

Old Post Jul 19th, 2015 02:59 PM
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This scan, I think, pretty much sums my response up to your post.

But first, an admission. I am sorry, judges, and Id, for wasting your time. I may well get disqualified for this, but my honesty compels me to come clean.
For you see, I have not drafted two characters, but three in this tourney. Winter, Hercules…and the Midnighter.

How else can you explain how masterfully I have manipulated beastboks into the outcome I want? There is no other. I have already won this battle before he even posted.

It does not matter that you are human level in energy. This is due to a number of reasons:

  1. As I have said multiple times, I am hunting for the DIFFERENT energy signature. Even if your duplicates all ‘possess a LOT more energy than your build will’ (your words), it is the odd one out that I would target. Winter has detected energy and has tracked residual energy across Russia – detecting human level targets would not be an issue:

  2. Your spell of concealment seems, oddly, to have now shifted to become all-encompassing. Realised Winter does not just rely on sight now, eh? The magic required to shield ALL of your energy – proof that it itself is undetectable? As I have shown multiple times, Winter can detect energy. He can also absorb magic - so I am unable to understand (perhaps I am slow and behind the times? No, it is the children who are wrong) how you can take the energy from the surrounding area, use them for multiple complex spells…and yet, not have this magic detectable? There isn’t anything special from your magic and the magic that Winter has absorbed before…unless you can prove it’s different?

Not sure what animals running from an illusion – even if its hot – has to do with me. Apart from me able to now suck all that heat energy up as well? As I have said, it is the DIFFERENCE in magical energy (or indeed ANY energy) levels that I am detecting.

M-field powers? Lovely. Your scan shows Buddy creating super defence cells. Even IF Winter's HF worked like that (no proof), thanks for the help!

Wait, that's NOT what you posted that feat for? OK, post the feat where he does so to create the most' dangerous bacteria or virus in existence'. I'll wait.

To summarise, in the exact same format as you, so that the judges can easily see how badly you are losing this batt- nay, this war.

  1. I am not aiming my arrows, which can pierce all armours AND are tipped with an incredible, mortal poison, at the area where magic is most heavily concentrated. I am aiming it at the human-sized area where it is LOWEST (or at least, MOST different). The magnitude does not concern me; only the target which is most out of place.

  2. No energy attacks? I thought you were using psychic attacks in your opener? Calling a dimensional serpent? Using the weather against me? Emit sonic attacks and energy attacks? That was all in your opener. Not to mention, I repeat again: Winter does NOT rely on having energy DIRECTED at him:
    Your illusions (magic energy, with sound and heat and whatever else you want to expend it make it ‘believable), your shields for said illusions, your concealment spell, Deedra’s chains, all those animals and birds and insects in the area (WUT? I’ve shown you Winter absorbing nukes and Cold War death machines, and you attack me with canaries and dogs? I kinda feel insulted now) your teleportations – all will be drained. Even a form of speedstealing, should I want to, would be possible. And you don’t even have to be directing this energy at me. I am not that frilly fop Sebastian Shaw, who needs it directed at him to absorb it. If it is the surrounding area, I can soak it up, if I choose to:

  3. Light speed? Proof of this? Your scan showed him having trouble and then catching an alternate future’s Barry, which by Buddy’s own admission was not even half Flash’s speed – and we don’t even know how fast THAT Flash was moving.
    IOW, in your scan, Alt Flash COULD have been moving at, say 1000 mph – and he was still out of Buddy’s league. So your proof of going lightspeed is, well, zilch. EVEN if you can get to anywhere NEAR that level:
    I’ve absorbed and lived in the Sun for months at a time. Drove me crazy, sure, but didn’t kill me.
    In case any of you were wondering, that punch from Apollo? Drove Winter into the dirt, but he was fine (in the background of the second panel, which is the next time we see them. Ignore the half-naked girl having sex):

  4. Now, for the Midnighter part of my draft.

My strategy was always to lead to a massive explosion in energy, as seen in my Sunbuster. For proof of its power:
I glassed the entire area for 800 miles. That is the amount of energy I can output. But, I need a top-up, and Beastboks kindly provided it.

I knew he wouldn’t be so foolish as to fire magical bolts at me. But using his dimensional teleportation and attempting to hack at me (with, I must remind the judges, an unproven mix of promethium/nth metal/adamantium/vibranium alloy – has he ever manifested such a sword – AND an unproven speed level) whilst I am unprepared? LOL, I repeat my scan again to show how Winter can absorb energy even when KOed:

I do not even have to be conscious or aware of him for all of this energy to simply be absorbed. Especially if he compels all the animals in Rome – no, Italy – to attack me. Not to mention, as written before – his portals summoning his serpenty friend (unproven, and unproven that he would help me), controlling the weather, shielding, illusions, the kitchen sink, eye of Ra spell, mental attacks – all this will take and contain energy. Yummy. Of course, he is now adding on additional attacks - chains of Deedra, native animals of Italy,

I drafted the arrows to make him run around and stack speed up. I WANTED him to get faster. More kinetic energy for me. I was then hoping he would try and do as much as possible, with as varied an attack as possible, to harm me. He duly obliged, and has now enabled me to blow the entire arena, as well as Rome, up. Which, you will note, he has not countered.

The outcome was assured as soon as we both posted, and I saw he had done exactly as I had planned. I have then led him a merry dance across the battlefield, culminating in the finale where I bust all over him.

And this isn’t even my final form.


Old Post Jul 19th, 2015 04:26 PM
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ready for the loony bin

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Post 4
It does not matter that you are human level in energy.

There wont even be "human level energy" for you to find due to the concealment spell. the only energy you can detect on the battlefield will be anything but myself.

Your spell of concealment seems, oddly, to have now shifted to become all-encompassing. Realised Winter does not just rely on sight now, eh?

Actually I realized from the outset. this was why I purposely chose a wording that was broad and "ALL ENCOMPASING". Had I said invisibility spell then I would be limited to protection from sight. Had I said cloaking that would only add sound protection. I did this for two reasons
1. So that you would waste much of you beginning counters carrying on about how you would discern my location, which I could easily shoot down.
2. To offer the very protection of being found by ANY means i may not have been aware of.

So it appears it was actually my team that drafted Midnighter and manipulated you. You have so nicely done everything I would have expected and left yourself without a leg to stand on.

To answer your question is three fold.
1. You have shown nothing that proves that Winter detects "life" energy. This isn't energy in the conventional sense. It's that spark of an essense like the soul.
2. My scans categorically state that the many colored threads are only visible to mages with second sight. Clear indication that they aren't like other magic.
3. The magic Arion uses (the many colored thread) is old beyond time and long since forgotten or used by any other. Any feat for Winter absorbing magic, doesn't prove anything against a form of energy that was not used since before recorded history.

The threads were used to create the energy of magic now used today and are nothing like it.

let's say for the sake of the argument you can detect the energy I am "using from around the area". That energy isn't from where I am, it isn't necessarily going to where I am. It's going to where the effect is. To cast a concealment spell could just as easily be sending out from everywhere a distortion to anything that can detect to prevent it. So the energy is in the trees, the birds, the blades of grass and near you. How does that help you find me???

Wait, that's NOT what you posted that feat for? OK, post the feat where he does so to create the most' dangerous bacteria or virus in existence'. I'll wait.

He created an antibody in that feats. An antibody is part of a bacteria. The anti body he created was also from a vastly enhanced strain of anthrax (so it was for the "deadliest bacteria known). The rules say I'm not limited by their morals and to their feats and the feat does what I need. big grin

I'll cover the rest in bullet point (because it's not worth any great deal of attention)

1. the only energies i've used that are detectable (not "concealed, as the concealment spell is around me) are away from me or in positions i formerly held. Therefore no use in attacking or defending from me.
2. The animals are a distraction, while your dealing with them, the weather, etc etc you focus is taken from me (and you NEED your focus on me)
3. In the scan of Buddy tagging Barry, he was limited to drawing speed and stacking speed from animals of Rot, like cockroaches. Animals not even known for speed. It stated on panel that barry was half speed and he goes much FTL, so even half speed is near light speed. Actually having access to the animals that do have speed to stack means I can go much faster than light but that is the limit by the rules.
4. Aiming arrows - couldn't care less
That's a depowered Arion with no more than normal human stats catching an arrow fired from behind him in flight. Add the enhanced speed and reaction of Animal man and I am not worried about arrows.
5. Absorbing kinetic energy from something near light speed with vastly increased mass won't stop it from making it cut. Never mind that i can simply make it intangible and then solid once it's in your heart
6. It doesn't really matter if the metal isn't those specifics there are metals in the real world that allow enough of what I need.
7.I have allowed you to wale on now for 3 of your 5 posts about how you can detect energy and will know my position all because you failed to take full consideration of the semantics I used in the opening post. Concealment literally means to hid from all means of detection. You've dug your hole and now have to turn to a completely new strategy with very little time. Since you've already done all this and wasted so much time that I likely have already removed your legs, arms head, infected you with a bacteria you have no hope of fighting, undermined your bodies healing factor (BTW, prove it doesn't work that way- it's how healing factors work). By the time you adopt any strategy that has a chance of success your already dead.

Old Post Jul 20th, 2015 02:56 AM
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Post 4
So, the penultimate post. But still, we are no closer to the truth with beastboks – rather, we are getting even further from it!

Detecting life energy? Why, some cultures (such as Grail’s) would call it something else.


But don’t take my word for it, take Wildstorm’s. Granted, I do not have many scans of Grail, as I did not think I would be needing him. But, the main points are there, and this scan should be more than sufficient. His symbiote enables him to use chi energy, AKA lifeforce:

As shown in my opener, Winter can take on chi:

If I am repeating myself, it is only because I have always had a rock solid argument, which needs no variance. Also, Winter has had few appearances; Herc, fewer still. Remember this, if beastboks tries to use that argument for his lack of proof.

Having ‘old’ magic that predates time – how does that mean anything? It merely shows that you’re using a new flavour of energy that Winter has not encountered – if your scans show even that. If anything, all that means is that you’d stand out even more! SENDING out a concealment spell eh? Very tricky. Alas for you, I’ve already shown – multiple times – I can track energy back to its source. Send as much as you want. I can track it – especially if it’s a new and extremely different type of energy (as you are asserting).

Still sticking to the bacteria/virus theory – actually, more of a conjecture/hypothesis – eh? Very well. let’s take this futher. Your scan shows him making PART of a bacterium (with the antibodies). Scans of him actually making a WHOLE? You have but one post more. Use it wisely.

In your last post, too, prove that Winter’s HF works the same way, as, say, Wolverine’s. The rules state:
You can't borrow feats from someone else, even if your similar characters.

So you cannot, in all seriousness, try and pass off ‘well, it MIGHT work on this guy who has a HF, so, it will work on you, as you also have a HF’, as a legit tactic.

Now, for the rest of your post.

  1. There is a lot of use, when attacking you – not that I need it, really. 800 miles, remember?
  2. A distraction? And why would I need to focus on you? I have shown scans of a KOed Winter, not focussing on anything (and when revived, not even knowing where he was, LOL) absorbing and being rejuvenated.
  3. The linchpin of your offence, and indeed, your entire strategy. Your ‘IMS’ at lightspeed (or near lightspeed). What happens if I tug on this particular thread? Does your entire BZ fall apart? A bit sneaky of me to do this now, so late in the game – but I had been planning on doing this as soon as you opened. After all, I believe I am the Flash fanboy here. Let’s have a tug, shall we?

(please log in to view the image)

That is the zoomed-in, relevant slice of info, upon which beastboks hangs his hat. I have underlined the relevant words, to draw the judges’ attention to them.

  1. How fast is Barry’s rep? In DCnU, he hasn’t gone lightspeed, certainly not in front of others. Certainly not in front of Buddy. So what is he REPUTED to have, in terms of max speed? Lightspeed? Mach 500? Mach 100? Proof?
  2. Even IF it was lightspeed (no proof so far), the scan VERY clearly states, he’s NOT even half. So what is it? 40%? 49%? 10%? 1%? Proof?
  3. On top of all of this, he was STILL way out of Buddy’s league. Later on, Buddy caught him, sure – but how fast was he going THEN? When he was at 1% of Mach 100 (as I assert), he was still way out of Buddy’s league. Proof?

So, a whole lot of ‘Maybe’s’.

MAYBE Flash (from an alt. future, and weakened), when tagged, was travelling at the same speed he was travelling at earlier in the issue.

MAYBE this was at 40-49% of lightspeed (or whatever it is to make a difference).

MAYBE this is what the Flash is reputed to have as his max.

On top of all this, MAYBE this would be too fast for me to absorb.

Wait, I’ve argued all the other points, what about that last point? How quickly can Winter absorb energy? Is there some kind of time limit?

Its instantaneous. The energy hits Winter, it gets absorbed. I can do it subconsciously, and there is no time limit. Even IF all those ‘Maybes’ are met, he would still have to show that the speed advantage is enough to overwhelm me.

I posted that scan above for another reason. I emit the negative version of all that delicious energy that’s being used. So that powerful Sunbuster attack I showed earlier? It has double - at least - the destructive power, because it is specifically the energy that would harm him.

I have pretty much covered the rest of your points, but, please, prove that your speed is what you say it is. Please, don't forget too - in your opener, you specifically said you were targeting me with psychic energy (which can be tracked) sonics, and energy attacks. Not to mention all those other attacks you were throwing at me. All of which would heal me.

I guess, all there is to say now is: Hercules, play us out:
(please log in to view the image)


Old Post Jul 20th, 2015 10:23 AM
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Post 5 - final post

First to fix a fouled scan from my last post

For some reason an animal man one loaded twice.

Ahh my friend, Chi isn't "life force". and it isn't magic. The fact that he has no problem absorbing Chi, but magic is the "spicy food" for him proves this. It (magic) hurts him going in and out. Speaking of which it's time to address that elephant in the room, and in doing so put this to bed.

I've deliberately ignored this fact throughout so that you can push the non existent line of using Winters energy absorption un-impunned so that I could pull this rug from under you in the closing moments, leading your debate by the nose. Your own scan shows that he was in flight and fighting the magic and when he absorbed it was on the ground in pain. That is going to be a truly effective way of fighting my build isn't it???

When I'm ready to make my final attack I will unleash a vast magical strike against you that will leave you in pain and helpless to defend yourself. At this point I will slice off all your appendages finishing with your head. So you see everything else I've said is mere smoke and mirrors. Leading you to make your debate as I would have you. Making you commit to a course of action that was failed from the outset. You have completely wasted your entire first four posts because in your own opening, you disclosed how magic affects you adversely and will win this for me. I have made you repeat how many times that you will absorb the magical energy around you?? How many times have you caused yourself pain in this debate without me even doing a thing??

Every single thing you have stated throughout this debate of how you would face me will cause you pain. IF your successful, you defeat yourself, if not I defeat you.

Now to another "contextually questionable" feats you've posted. You claim that you can absorb energy even when unconscious, so you ingore the fact that to do so required your unconscious body being lifted into the path of an energy attack?? Did you bring someone along with you to the battle to be able to do this?? Not that it really matters since absorbing Arion's magic will cause you pain and disorient you (as it did in your own evidence)

Tug away at that thread, as with your own evidence you've completely ignored the context (which I already pointed out for you). In the rot world feat Buddy was limited to drawing on animals of "ROT". It specifically stated cockroaches and the like. The top speed of a cockroach is 2 miles an hour. Can you even contemplate how many cockroaches Buddy had to stack to achieve even 1/5 the speed of light??? Considering that in this battle I have access to ALL of buddy's powers and can access hundreds of thousands of animals that speed to several orders of magnitude greater, I could easily achieve FTL speed, only the rules prevent me from doing so. There is NO MAYBE in the feat, when you consider exactly how limited he was during it.

Having ‘old’ magic that predates time – how does that mean anything? It merely shows that you’re using a new flavour of energy that Winter has not encountered
considering that the modern version of the energy lays him low (your scans not mine) an ancient and very different type may very well end him. Regardless since absorbing magic hurts him enough to have him from flying to being face planted on the ground with definite impact marks in the space of a panel, I don't think I have much to worry about.

Your counter to my slicing and dicing you is absorbed kinetic energy. To support this you offer absorbing the kinetic energy of a bullet. A bullet that weighs maybe 3 grams moving maybe 300m/s. Somehow this allows you to absorb a mass of potential tons (mass altering of Animal man) moving at light speed??? Talk about a no limits fallacy.

My opponent relies on
1. being unseen - busted as I have shown Arion sensing things without normal senses and Animal man can have every sense of teh animal kingdom stacked
2. Magic Energy absorbing - busted as his own scans show it drops him like a rag doll to absorb magic.
3. Kinetic energy absorbing - yeah a bullet is really on the league of what he's
4. Combat skills and weapons that he has conceded we are equals in and I have shown even depowered (which I am far from here)I can catch.

He has present no attack that is viable where his own evidence doesn't undermine.

He has also presented no defense to my attacks other than failed attempts to say the feats I've presented don't make them possible when they actually make vastly more possible, and his own feats actually prove to be as he states mine are.

Judges I could have shot his argument to pieces at any time but chose to wait until he was utterly committed to it. He now has no out, not back door to climb through to present a different means of viable offense or defense.

Old Post Jul 21st, 2015 02:27 AM
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Post 5
So, the last post. I’ll first try to just summarise my arguments over the past four posts, and if I still have space, rebut the arguments in beastboks’ final post.

My strategy has remained largely unchanged since the opener, and for that, I am pleased. Oh sure, I’ve had to add a few embellishments and tweaks here and there, but it has remained the same.
I don my helm, the bell rings, and I take to the air. I fire my arrows at beastboks. Of course, he knows how dangerous they will be – so I predicted he would stack speed to try and escape.
He obliged.
I envisioned shields of some sort (and had been prepared to show their weakness, had he pushed) and a whole load of ‘special effects’ magic – IOW, spells that looked flashy and impressive, but would be useless.
He obliged.
I then planned to soak up the energy, and return it to him in its negative form. I showed how Winter does not need to be the focus of the attack, nor does Winter need to even be aware of the attack.
Depending on the amount expended, it would either be a massive explosion, or a focussed beam. The sheer variety of attacks he threw (as I suspected he would; he IS a magic user after all) confirmed that it would be a big attack. Maybe not 800 miles-wide, but certainly massive.
Had he pushed the point (perhaps by saying he could survive the attack), I was going to point out how naked Winter was after exploding:
Why nakedness? Well, the only thing stopping beatboks from gazing upon my studly manliness, but more importantly, my Shield of Perseus, was a strip of cloth covering it:
Which would be burnt away, exposing him to my Medusa’s gaze. That was to be my penultimate attack – which never came to be, alas.
Ultimately, he never argued he would survive it, so it was never needed.
This strategy stayed true, and never needed to be changed.
But DS needs his prep time. What if beastboks NEVER expended ANY energy (highly unlikely, but possible)? I’d have channelled energy directly from the sun. I could have cauterised the entire planet:

THAT was how Winter was able to turn an area 800 miles wide into glass. Everything was obliterated - because the explosion was just that powerful. And he did this without any need for external power ups:
I did not draft a powerset. I drafted a character. All feats by said character are admissible.
When the Doctor resurrected Winter, he took the exact same spirit of Winter – his soul – and placed in a DNA-cloned body of Winter. His body, soul, memories – they are all the same. The Dr himself says that they are the same:
Same Winter.
It does not have to be 800 miles wide, as I said before. Leaving the area was not allowed, and I was confident I could get him in the blast radius. And so it proved. This was my final attack – a true Sunbuster.
First, a narcotic fog that sinks to the ground, and mere serpents could climb out of. Great. I took to the air as the match started, so you just put yourself to sleep.
Chi is not life force? Well, as you posted a dictionary definition earlier, allow me to return the tactic:
noun: qi
the circulating life force whose existence and properties are the basis of much Chinese philosophy and medicine.

Boom. Headshot.

In pain? Sure, magic causes me pain. As Winter himself said, like spicy food – hurts going in and coming out. It’s hardly like getting shot, is it?

Oh wait, here is Herc, whilst getting shot twice, still with the presence of mind to do a trick shot most of us can only dream of, down a gun barrel:

Boom. Arrow headshot.

On the subject of pain tolerance – Herc has endured the poison of the Hydra. Something so painful, when he was mortal, he would rather burn himself alive than continue suffering it:
And guess what – when immortal, he continued to fight, and pretty much decimated SHIELD when under its pain.

Boom. Headshot.

You know what, let’s keep going.

Here’s Winter, absorbing nukes, and continuing to stand:

Here’s Winter, with the Cold War death machine:

Here’s Winter, fighting a Korean supersoldier, who had been amped. Note the pain:

Boom, boom, boom. One punch ended that fight.

Who was that soldier?

Here's Winter, fighting magic (the subsequent scan after the one I originally posted Hardly taken out the fight, is he? Moreover, it shows how Winter can be flung at a concrete floor so hard that it cracks – and still be standing):

What does all this prove? Wanna know my secret? I’m always in pain. It has never caused Winter or Herc to curl up into a ball and give up – on the contrary, that is when they do their best and highest feats. Relying on pain incapacitating me - when it has never happened - is a fool's errand. If anything, as with the Sun, it would drive me mad...whereupon I start lashing out and exploding.

Boom. Headshot.

I need someone to lift me? No. I posted that scan, not as a Battalion strength feat (lifting Winter), but as a feat to show Winter not needing to even realise he’s having energy directed at him, to absorb it - as I've said multiple times. You say your reactions are too fast for me, and that you can hack at me with impunity – I say, I don’t have to react to you to absorb energy.


So no rebuttal to the Flash ‘feat’. 1/5th speed of light now, is it? Why not 5%? 1%? You're just pulling numbers out of thin air now. Still no proof of how fast he was going.


Magical energy, already dealt with. Pain is not an issue. Russia endures.


Next, the bullet ‘rebuttal’.

As you have brought science into it, let’s go. Energy is energy. A joule is a joule is a joule. Scientists don’t talk about ‘heat joules’ or ‘kinetic joules’, or ‘sonic joules’. I have shown I can absorb and redirect kinetic energy, and can absorb vast quantities of energy (multiple nukes, the Sun). The type does not matter, only the magnitude does – your argument is akin to ‘Superman has lifted 1000kg of steel, and he has lifted a pencil, but there is no proof he can lift a 1000kg pencil’. Nonsensical.

The only different energy, of course, is magic – but pain does not cripple me. The main vial of snake oil you're trying to peddle here - that I cannot absorb this magnitude of kinetic energy (with no proof of the magnitude, I reiterate) is laughable as KE is the same as other forms of energy that I've absorbed.

Of course, this somehow, SOMEHOW, ignores the fact that nukes have a fair amount of concussive kinetic energy,and I have shown that I can absorb multiples nukes worth. But don’t just take my word for it:
The immediate energy release per atom is about 180 million electron volts (Me). Of the energy produced, 93 percent is the kinetic energy of the charged fission fragments flying away from each other, mutually repelled by the positive charge of their protons. This initial kinetic energy imparts an initial speed of about 12,000 kilometers per second.


Lol at the dig at me for using a no-limits fallacy, however – when in the previous sentence, you say:
Somehow this allows you to absorb a mass of potential tons (mass altering of Animal man) moving at light speed??? Talk about a no limits fallacy.

Light speed, eh? I thought it was 1/5th? Still no proof.

So, in summary - my strategy of distractions with the arrows has worked, you have gifted me with a lot of energy (that I can reverse into negative energy AND AMP), and I can stack it with further energy channelled direct from the sun.



Old Post Jul 21st, 2015 07:21 PM
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The Man of Tomorrow

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Diablo Corps


First of all, congratulations to both competitors, it was a very able and fun debate to watch, one of most unpredictable and varied I have ruled in my tenure. Into the ruling!


Instead of a straight brawl, both sides went for sleight of hand and sensorary input. This made the combat particularly even as I leaned several times to believe one side instead of the others, both Winter and Arion (awesome character!) were excellent choices.

While Darksaint hyped his strategy a bit (Midnighter? More like Quasimodo), it was still a rare case of saving up the main part of your plan that fitted (more or less) against the strategy Beatboks used. At the beginning I wondered how he intended to fit the speed gap, but his plan took into account draining kinetic energy and made the arrows a believable threat. All in all, it came out as a more layered strategy and DS takes the edge thanks to that.

Slight edge to DS.


The battle was all but settled with the arguments given by both sides, while DS came up with a counter of sorts, his ability to absorb particular énergies directly wasn't a given. Beatboks presented many possible was of attacking and the bacteria seemed specially adecuate to me, sadly it wasn't a focus of his during must of the match. The boomburst was a legit win condition as was the sword, I did not consider Arion to be fully sealed by Winter's all around absorbing abilities (Winter only needed to struggle at absorbing something and it could cost him his life), but the solidity of the sword and the speed of AM's amp were well put into question.

So I'd say they were about even, but in this case I'll give an edge to Beatboks.


This is the tie breaker.

Both were good at bringing proof. Beatboks established his character's abilities properly and made an excellent point as of how to counter DS's cloaking. Darksaint managed to cast into doubt the overall capacities of Ariuddy's inmediate power, and since it was critical to his success, it was a good choice.

Beatboks showed the many ways he had to pull an advantage into the battle, overpowering with Animal Man's flexibility... But I believe the many skills he had played against him. There is a point in a debate where you're ahead and then you need to drown your opponent in feats so his comeback looks impossible. In my opinion that point wasn't reached, so instead it looked as if the amalgam tried to pull too many things, and his activities as described in the opening post only add to that feeling of "trying to do too much". Darksaint capitalized on this and mostly used his arguments to keep his argument feasible, this management of effort paid off.

So my vote goes to Darksaint, but just barely. Good work to you both!



Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 03:12 AM
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The Man of Tomorrow

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Diablo Corps


Per my usual, this is a stream of consciousness as I read through the match. Some earlier comments may not reflect my eventual opinion, since I'm composing them as I read through the match, NOT all at the end:

- So I’m looking at two undetectable combatants with no clear way of finding one another. Hoo-boy.
- Sure, they both claimed to have ways of finding the other, but it’s a bit needle in a haystack. Every energy signature Winter sensed was close by. And bat sonics and such won’t do much against Winter’s “null field” and Herc’s magic hat.
- So we’re essentially playing a game of Marco Polo at a school for the deaf and blind. Which is going to make this match f*ck-all confusing to figure out.
- I’m saying ‘nyet’ to that worm summons by Arion. Seemed context specific.
- Beatboks has raw power and speed. By quite a bit. A lone dubious bullet time feat from Winter isn’t enough to approach what Animal Man can do. Not sure how DS will take him out.
- DarkSaint has an incredibly efficient defense. I know Winter isn’t unbeatable. But paired with Herc’s arsenal like this, I’m going to need to see something clever or massive to put him down.
- Ah, ok, DS is busting out Herc’s haxx weapons. A couple are aimed at providing OHKs, or something close to it.
- Conversely, BB will get to try a lot more things because of his speed edge. And I don’t believe the arrows will ever connect, given the speed and power discrepancy.
- This match sucks to judge. You both suck. stick out tongue I don’t even use this line much, because it’s cliché. It’s usually a way to wank both combatants by being diplomatic and saying it’s so hard to judge. You’re both doing fine, but this is more a comment on the strategies you’ve chosen to employ, and how they interplay with one another (or don’t, as the case may be).
- Yeah, Animal Man can use all his regular powers. Our Earth doesn’t gimp him, per Id’s ruling.
- BB, clean up yer damn posts. I’m not even talking about dead links. The formatting is ugh. Have defined sections, bolded titles, proper quotes when you quote DS, etc.
- Winter CAN be hurt – DS actually shows this to show his healing – and I don’t thinking soaking up incorporeal illusions are going to be terribly good healing-fuel.
- BB hasn’t leveled too much traditional energy stuff at Winter. Some, yes. But he’s mixing it up with some non-traditional attacks that have a better shot at working.
- But goddamn Winter’s energy soak is massive.
- I'm not buying the sword made from the greatest hits of comic metals. That said, I think any sword accomplishes much the same thing for BB's purposes. This isn't coming down to a lengthy sword fight. This is a brutally efficient tourney, not a movie with a dramatic end sequence.
- Both are fishing for ways to reliably identify the other. But I don’t think they’d be hidden forever. Maybe Winter detects something. Maybe he attacks an illusion that clues Arion into his location. Etc. This only matters for first strike, mind you, and I’m having trouble figuring out who has the better argument. But it’s still a bit of a shame, because there are OHKs on the table that make this important.

Overall Thoughts:
You kind of went kitchen sink on this one. You threw out a lot of different strategies without a clear plan of which ones were taking priority, which you were doing out of the gate (your OP was mostly…sword stabbing?). Later posts utilized AM’s and Arion’s versatility well, but they resembled the structure of "I'll do this. Or maybe this! Or what about this! Or, no, this!" There wasn’t much coherence, which is negative points in my book. You also let yourself get dragged down into the detectability argument for too long. You were at your best when you were elucidating how you could take him out. Many of the strategies you offered he doesn’t have specific counters for. But if judges go against you, it will likely be because those are buried.

I really enjoyed what you did with your amalgam. I consider this pairing the most clever in the tourney, if not the most overtly powerful, because you went a very different and less obvious direction than most. Your amalgam is a knife in the dark, as opposed to the more ostentatious displays of power elsewhere. You sacrificed raw power, but it was with a specific intent. And you created an amalgam that’s diabolically hard to take out.

The Match:
For all that, though, I think BB will have quite a few chances to try his various strategies due to previously mentioned versatility, power, and speed advantages, of which he has a lot due to his characters’ powers.

The Medusa shield is the OHK that I’m not sure BB has an answer to. I think the arrows are moot without someone faster or without some trick like teleportation. The sword is nice, but also clunky minus first strike scenarios. But even as I write this, I’m not sure DS couldn’t win with the shield. This isn’t a 10/10 fight for either. But over a large number of iterations, given speed, strength, and tricks like intangibility and teleportation, I see some of Arion’s and AM’s more esoteric attacks – gas/fog, chains, feral animal attacks as distraction, materializing a punch in Winter/Herc’s heart using intangibility, possibly even the sword with a teleport trick – as being able to get through and do real damage.

I also took the “Character Knowledge” section of the rules to mean that Arion/AM would know about the shield. So DS may have surprised some of us irl with it, but Arion/AM wouldn’t go charging headfirst into it without basic knowledge of it. Especially since it looks like DS didn’t lead with it, there’s a decent chance it gets knocked away in the fighting or specifically taken and discarded by a faster Animal Man.

At that point, ambient energy soak for healing isn’t going to be enough, and BB ran a tight enough strategy not to give Winter too much to play with (though he did give him some). DS had to rely on ambient soak a lot, which is less convincing. It makes Winter formidable, but not what DS wants him to be. The nuke-absorption feats are awesome, among some other good ones, but will only be applicable against someone taking the wrong tactics. And as mentioned, I had to consider the detecting game a bit of a wash, which was frustrating for me, but I'd rather remain ambivalent that flip a coin.

BB stumbled his way through some wrong tactics, but ultimately drafted characters with enough going for them that I can believe that the viable tactics he employed will be successful. Vote for Beatboks.

Good match, fellas.


Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 03:12 AM
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The Man of Tomorrow

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Diablo Corps

Supermutant's Vote

DS strategy--I don helmet of Hades, the bell rings, and I take to the air. I fire my arrows at the opponent. Arrows tipped with the feather of the Stymphalian birds and dipped in the blood of the Hydra. When opponent uses shields and magic counters, I then planned to soak up the energy, and return it to him in its negative form as a massive explosion.

BB strategy--Magical shield, concealment spell to hide me, multiple illusions, teleport to secluded location, stack animal speed, altered time rate. Then magical and most durable metal sword, summon the dimensional serpent like entity, elemental attack combined with "dull mind spell." Finally, teleport behind opponent and cut off limbs.

First note, I don't think believe BB will have the time and/or concentration/power to do everything in the beginning. That's a whole lot of multi-tasking. I prefer DS simpler strategy although simpler isn't always better.

Second note, BB would be able to hear and sense his opponent w/out the need for sight using Animal Man. Also Animal Man can access the powers of Alien animals. He did it on DC earth, he can do it here.

Third note, Winter should be able to track energy signatures, magic does give off a signature. Although would he be tracking a real opponent or an illusion. Also how long can BB stay intangible and he would have to become tangible to strike opponent.

For me this comes down to can Winter absorb magic and still be in fighting condition? BB definitely has speed on his size and both of you claim magical swords. Herc sword can definitely cut Arion's going by the feats shown.

This is very tough and a testament to the great job you guys did. There's really only one scan that showed Winter absorbing magic and he wasn't looking too good from it. His ally even said, "he couldn't win the way things were going."

If there were a couple more scans of Winter absorbing magic w/out so much strain, my vote would be different, but I vote for beatboks. excellent match


Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 03:13 AM
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The Man of Tomorrow

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Diablo Corps

Beatboks wins, and advances to the next round.


Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 03:14 AM
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