Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
so, let's take a look at what there is to see, da?
wellllll.... i think not.
there are more than a few problems with this particular approach. the first one revolves around id's initial assumption that i would simply stand in front of him and trust my shields/armor. do you KNOW how strong tony is?? damn. my shields ARE strong. coupled with the armor, i've little doubt i could resist a direct pummeling--at least for long enough to marshal together a stronger defense.
but.... i didn't do that. using my own perceptual abilities i vanish in the first instant of the battle via teleport, then i go ahead and cloak myself as previously shown. at this point, he is lost. for all his hyper PHYSICAL senses, i'm not cloaked PHYSICALLY. and he has nothing in his history that would indicate he could penetrate my PSI CLOAK.
in fact, there are indications that the exact OPPOSITE is likely true:
that can be interpreted in a couple ways: either he can't because qubit has shielded himself with some sort of tech inhibitor, or he can't because he literally has no tp powers. whichever way you see it, it is NOT good for id. if he can't overcome qubit's tp inhibitor (qubit would have precious little experience with uber psi characters, so really, how great could his inhibitor be assumed to be? all it had to block was some no-named psi named burrows) he would have, LITERALLY, a 0.0% chance to get into my omega level mind.
and of course, if he HAS no tp, well, he's REALLY screwed....
as for OTHER problems with his plan:
(1) he wants to use INERTIAL DAMPENING.
PROBLEM? based on the scan, it would appear that he needs to be in contact to rob something of its inertia. even if i WAS standing in front of him, he couldn't make contact through my shields, and a tk shield wouldn't necessarily have inertia as it is a non-physical construct.... to assume he could use this power at a distance would be a faulty assumption.
(2) he wants to MAUL ME:
PROBLEM? a neat idea, except for the tiny issue that i'm not there and he can't find me....
(3) he wants to SLAM A MUTHAPHUCKING BLACK HOLE THROUGH MY CHEST!
PROBLEM? while i love the enthusiasm, i'm again, not there and he can't find me. there's also the fact that QUBIT knew how to work with bette's powers to make a black hole, not tony.... and he needed bette's BULLET to create one, AND he even had to make adjustments to it to ALLOW it to take the form of a black hole. ALL of that was only possible because of QUBIT. there is not even CLOSE to enough proof to suppose tony, on his own, could just whip up a black hole....
in effect, all of tony's superior physical and energy attacks are rendered useless in this match. even making an attempt to use his new QUANTUM BASED ABILITY would be useless as he has no idea where i am. instead, he expends all his powers on uber-level illusions while i pillage his memory, safely cloaked, and force him to relive his entrapment at the end of time. it would only take a moment, it's a prison he cannot escape, it's an attack for which he has no defense.
Last edited by leonidas on Nov 20th, 2015 at 10:19 PM
Lastly his offensive move is a telepathic assault.
Point 1 - X-Mans Perceptual Advantage counters Plutonians Speed.
Having perceptual knowledge is great if you can ACT on it. In the world of boxing or mma its called telegraphing an attack. However telegraphing an attack is useless if your not “Quick Enough” to act on it. Simple right? Ok lets put my claim to the test. If X-Man can view the world in Planck Units, why is it that he is still being tagged by opponents as slow as Ares or Venom?
Don’t get me wrong having such extensive Perception is a fantastic tool, That’s if you have the right means to apply it, but if you don’t have the raw speed and the stepping in between moments is deemed illegal. Than whatever perceptual advantage Leo may have will not help him as much, your going to get tagged by Plutonian because your to slow to act on it.
However the real interesting part of all this, X-Mans “Perceptual Advantage” isn’t much of an advantage.
That means X-Man sees, whatever Plutonian wishes to show.
Point 2 - First Move: X-Man will port out
His first physical action is to teleport the “PHUCK” out harm’s way. The Harm being Tony the motherphucking Plutonian. Heh. My first action was to immobilize him by negating his inertia.
Look your future sight is skewed, thanks to Tonys ability to take control of the narrative in the passage of time. Therefore you could not anticipate this move. And secondly Leo already admitted that X-Man is the slower of the two. Than that means its much more likely for Plutonian to immobilize X-Man before he ports out.
Point 3 – Cloak and Shield.
I was not going to address this, because I don’t believe X-Man can get to the Cloaking part before Plutonian starts smashing his fist through his skull. But Ill address it anyway.
At this level, the Herald Class. I find the attempt of cloaking useless. In the High Herald Class, every other character has some form of Extra Sensory Perception or Cosmic Awareness that makes it impossible for anyone to hide from another Herald. Time for scan blitz.
These are Tony’s Extra Sensory Perception (ESP).
Modeus: You really think you can sneak around behind someone who can see, and hear everything on the planet? http://i.imgur.com/BeG2kaC.jpg
I can post more, to show how Plutonians senses are both vast, and acute (We are talking feeling and seeing individual electrons here).So lets move on, things to consider about X-Man.
X-Man actions radiate energy that low level telepaths can easily see. http://i.imgur.com/Z1TQoSp.jpg
Considering Tony’s extensive ESP, Nate can not have it both ways. You can not cloak yourself, and attack at the same time, and expect someone of Tony’s caliber not see you. And certainly NOT someone likes X-Man who radiates tremendous power when he flexes his psi muscle.
Point 4 - Lastly Leo offensive move is a telepathic assault.
Leo in your efforts to downplay Plutonian, and up-play X-Man, you’re purposely omitting information.
Plutonian developed two ways to read a person mind. Telepathy and reading the brain itself. In the scan above, Plutonian was not able to read Qubit’s mind due to his mental shields that prevents any telepath from doing so. So Plutonian goes on to read his mind through his other method, using his “OTHER” Power. http://i.imgur.com/pqXzcuQ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1aluh0o.jpg http://i.imgur.com/F70xZUG.jpg
So here are the pair of scans that your referenced. Personally, the scenes explain themselves. There is no indication that Burrows read Tony’s mind. He attempted, but he picked up the thoughts of Modeus and that drove him to commit suicide. Look at the scans closely, there is no evidence to associate Tony having his mind read. http://imgur.com/HNjql6X http://imgur.com/kHOJWl0
The reason why Burrows cannot read Tony’s mind. And the main reason why Nate would also FAIL to do any mental foolery. Isn’t because he is psionic being. Or because he is a telepath. Plutonian evolved to the point that his mind is naturally guarded from other telepaths.
To the point that even his Parents (Eleos) can not do so. Yes the same Eleos, those fully evolved Cosmic Aliens that manipulate psionic powers orders above Plutonian himself.
“Plutonian: Do you even have to ask? You know Im sincere. You can look into my mind.
Eleos: No more than we can peer into each other’s. That’s is how rapidly you are evolving.” http://i.imgur.com/vThzUhW.jpg
X-Mans Wings are capped, your not running anywhere from Plutonian. Your first attempt was to port out. But I’ve negated your inertia, rending you immobilize.
Even if you got away, Plutonians senses are far too vast or accute for you to hide.
Mental Phuckery is not possible. Tony evolved to the point where Psionic beings more powerful than Plutonian or X-Man are not able to do so.
Tony is going to unleash a holy ass beating on Nate, and drive a black hole deep in his chest.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
POST THE SECOND
is tony faster than i am? yes. be stupid to deny it. however, nate is NOT slow, as i already illustrated. does he have a ton of speed feats? no, not really, but he does have thought-speed reaction time as shown above, even BEFORE he evolved into the shaman. here he easily bends and redirects bullets away from him after they are fired:
so, again, he is not slow by any measure--and his thoughts are nearly indescribably fast. coupled with the perceptual advantage that allows him to LITERALLY break time down into the tiniest imaginable increments and SEE these increments, he would absolutely have time to react and then ACT before tony gets to him. his precog would help as well.
and let's not forget--tony is NOT blitzing me.
instead he is attempting the VERY RISKY gambit of negating my inertia. again, in the single instance that ability was demonstrated, he was in direct contact with the object.
jumping to the conclusion that he could negate inertia at a distance is a logical fallacy.
so, while he tries, and fails, to steal my inertia, i have plenty of time to port out of the way. as for why he gets hit by ares and venom? well, it IS a comic, he IS a hero and they ARE villains. ask superman or flash why THEY get hit.... that's not a great line of argument i'm afraid...
CONTROLS THE NARRATIVE??
not much to really say about this one. the ability is so esoteric and vaguely described, as to be effectively useless in a battle scenario. in the scans he seems to have lead the eleos to a point in his OWN history that he wanted them to see, but....that doesn't mean, in any way at all, that he can somehow....control time?? or even perception...?? that scenario was so specific (he was IN the time stream, examining his OWN history) and so ill-defined that drawing conclusions from it, and extrapolating its battle usefulness is impossible, and as such, the whole idea should likely just be dismissed. i don't even know what it would do in a battle....
ok, i'll not bother refuting tony's PHYSICAL senses. they are very good. but they don't matter in this match, at all. i am NOT hiding from him PHYSICALLY. as such, even things like atomic vision won't matter here. even this scan doesn't help:
"HE ALTERS THE ATOMIC STRUCTURE OF OBJECTS HE IS LOOKING AT.....
a telepathic cloak has no "atomic structure", at least not in any provable way. the purpose is to direct all physical senses AROUND its presence. of course it shields against psi powered senses as well, as we saw earlier when he hid from the very powerful EXODUS. in any event, i wouldn't be the first to prove able to hide from him. he couldn't see inside this alien ship for example:
even when he KNEW where to look he couldn't see it. rather he had to follow the sound of the signal to get there! so yes, it is absolutely possible to hide/cloak to the extent that a herald can't sense you....
and judges, don't forget: i only need moments to touch his mind and find the necessary memories to take him down for good.
also important to recall? my ILLUSIONS. once i teleport, tony wouldn't even be looking for me initially. he'd be far too busy dealing with the illusions i leave in my place. the illusions would ensure i have the very small amount of time i'd need to locate those memories of his that i'm looking for....
as far as nate exuding energy that tony can sense:
they didn't recognize his energy signature until AFTER he dropped his guard. all those tp's present and they couldn't detect his energy until he LET them. that scan only further SUPPORTS nate's ability to mask his power....
lol nate was shielding them in an effort to keep the monster out, not cloaking them to hide them. the thing already knew where they were and was hunting them long before nate arrived, having already killed one of the telepaths. it was also coming at them from a different UNIVERSE. iow--that scene has no bearing at all on...anything as regards this match.
i confess to being impressed by id's attempts at countering my attack. i didn't know just how he was gonna approach it. he did well actually--just not quite good enough.
somehow getting into gazer's mind (whose power was pretty small-fry) is....significantly different from trying to keep out someone who can stretch his power ACROSS THE MULTIVERSE to find a few specific minds....
so, again, though the eleos feat is sorta cool, it might simply reflect the fact that eleos can't get into the heads of other eleos. we really have no idea how impressive, or irrelevant, that scene is.
what we DO know: nate has feats that are FAR greater and FAR more concrete. while tony fiddles with my illusions, nate scans his mind, finds the memory of his entrapment, and forces him to relive it, forever. (i noticed too that he still mentioned the black hole again. that was sufficiently debunked in my initial post, but didn't want anyone thinking i didn't attend to it.)
COUP DE GRACE
let's say despite the overwhelming evidence in support of the fact that nate CAN get into tony's head, you STILL don't believe it. as soon as nate sensed the resistance, he could simply do this:
so, while the trap using his own memories is more elegant, it is far from my only move in this match. i could always use the moves in combo if needed--if i sense his mind is resisting, i could drain and weaken him THEN find the memories i want and end this thing. or i just KEEP draining him until there is nothing left.
my perceptions (breaking time down, seeing the immediate future) and my own speed, coupled with his decision NOT to blitz at the start, give me MORE than sufficient time to teleport and cloak, leaving illusions behind in my place.
illusions set, my superior psi powers let me touch his mind, nearly instantly understand his history, find memories to use against him, and trap him in them. if he resists, i drain his psionic power to weaken him, or i drain him dry. his senses and ill-defined powers are not enough to overcome my concrete, proven levels of power.
That’s right. He flew at multiple speed of light in Earth’s Orbit, while he carried the weight of a Neutron Star in the form of a Black Hole.
The reason I point this out is. There is a reason why Leo strategy involves “make a run for it” and play “Hide and Go Seek”. X-Man for all his power can not go toe to toe with Plutonian.
Did I anticipate Leo to run? Yes. Which is why Negating his Inertia makes perfect sense here.
Lets try not to make misdirecting comments here. Tony and Nate manipulate both energy and matter psionically. Meaning if they will it, it can happen. Tony does NOT need to touch anything to negate inertia, like X-Man does not to grab Venoms head to perform his “Psychomatic” trick.
Besides I am negating the inertia of Nathan Grey who 5”9 and weighs 135 Ibs. As oppose to negating the inertia of the Moon which has the mass of 7.3477×1022 kg and weight of 7.35x10^22 kg. Big difference here. Plutonian will have no problem negating X-Man’s inertia.
To do so. Its not necessary for Tony to relay on Bette’s Dark Matter to manipulate gravity. Its not necessary since Tony can manipulate all matter and energy, provided he knows the “knowhow” on how to do it.
The scan shows that my point above, Tony can do anything or will it because he is a psionic being, provided he knows the knowhow. http://i.imgur.com/uxJkR3e.jpg
[qoute]a telepathic cloak has no "atomic structure", at least not in any provable way. the purpose is to direct all physical senses AROUND its presence. of course it shields against psi powered senses as well, as we saw earlier when he hid from the very powerful EXODUS. in any event, i wouldn't be the first to prove able to hide from him. he couldn't see inside this alien ship for example:
and here, qubit actually cloaked his entire HEADQUARTERS from tony for a period of weeks with a determined tony constantly searching for it:
I see to many issues with your attempt to cloak yourself.
1) the examples you are against Tony are old. The Alien Ship, and Qubit Headquarters had cloaking’s that worked on Tony, prior to Tony expanding his senses which is not being factored into the argument. The scan below confirms he developed more powers and expanded his senses. http://i.imgur.com/cq3hhao.jpg
2) The Space Ship, and Headquarters, where stationary and where NOT attacking Tony. In your case you are, how the hell can you expect anyone to believe you can keep yourself hidden, while X-Man is flexing his Psi Powers? Again you can not have it both ways.
Finding you would be just as easy for Tony, as it was for Blacksmith. All that’s needed is to search for someone that does not want to be found. http://i.imgur.com/mbmMxcQ.jpg
[qoute]i confess to being impressed by id's attempts at countering my attack. i didn't know just how he was gonna approach it. he did well actually--just not quite good enough.:[/qoute]
The Eleos are characters that treated Plutonian as if they his child….They are his child. Heh.
But the point remains, they are psionic beings orders above X-Man or Plutonian. And their comment is very straight forward. Plutonian mind has evolved to the point that even the Eleos can not read his mind.
I am not claiming, Tony became adapt or a master telepath of X-Man’s order. Only that his mind is naturally guarded, and I don’t see X-Man breaching them, if the Eleos are unable to do so.
You attempted because Plutonian is physically superior in every way, and X-Man and would lose in a direct confrontation.
You cant run, your inertia was effectively negated by Plutonian.
If you did run, you cannot hide, especially if attempting to direct attacks at me.
Tony’s mind evolved to the point of being naturally shielded from telepaths.
Plutonian will hand X-Man a beating, and use a Black Hole as a finisher ala Street Fighter.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
THE FINISH LINE!!1!
so, the last post. let's look at id's post then go over some of the reasons this match belongs to nate.
as i said, i don't think it's conceding anything at all to say plutonian is the stronger. that is a FAR cry from conceding that nate is weak. it wouldn't come to this, but just to show off a bit.... id had thought that i might armor up for this battle. it wouldn't have been a bad option. encasing himself in tk armor allowed him to do THIS to the hulk:
he has no proof he could hit me, and if he tried some energy whammy to make me solid, that would fall under matter manip on an opponent. that means i could likely STAY intangible and simply mind phuck him at my leisure while he is unable to do anything at all about it.....
id's been talking up tony quite a bit. it's because he needs you to believe the hype, to assume potential=proof. things like saying he can "do anything" don't really fly though, not in this type of match. we know tony developed some new skills, but those skills were only very briefly explored by tony, so to assume he can do MORE than was shown, is, again, a faulty assumption.
but, just because i don't want tony hogging the spotlight again, here are just a couple examples of what nate himself is capable of. first, meet qabiri. i mentioned him earlier--he was the one nate was toying with using his illusions. anyway, qabiri is a planet destroyer--an effortless planet destroyer as shown here:
now, it's true that later on, in their next battle, qabiri proved to be the more powerful, (nate survived being blasted from orbit to earth in the battle) it still goes to show nate is a true force. here, an alternate jean asks him to destroy...ASIA!
now before id brings it up--that was an alternate nate--a WEAKER version. here we see the real nate perform a similar feat of power against jean, who, at one point, was considerably more powerful than nate was and she'd already killed dozens of alternate nates:
nate, literally without effort, destroyed that large city....
i showed you before that nate was created to DESTROY WORLDS--that was NOT hyperbole.
so, as you can see, nate is NOT short on power himself....
no misdirection intended, at all. again, we only saw tony use this power once and...he was in contact. he was never shown experimenting with the power again, so we can't just assume he was an expert at it, unlike nate, who has read the minds of people around the world and even found minds scattered across the muthaphukcing multiverse!!1! lol he's done a WHOLE lot more than just bring memories to the forefront--he has literally DISINTEGRATED high order telepaths simultaneously ACROSS A CITY! in nate's case, we have a definite frame of reference from whence to work, so the assumption that he can perform his PSYCHOSOMATIC ATTACK from a distance is a LOGICAL EXTENSION of his demonstrated abilities.
tony HAS no such frame of reference.
anyway, as i said, even IF we assume he can cancel my inertia somehow, would that extend to freezing my mind, like being frozen in time? it would need to, or i could still teleport outside his range and my attack would proceed as normal. though there is no logical reason to think he could cancel my inertia at a distance, it doesn't matter if he does because there is certainly no proof the attack would prevent me from thinking.
id is saying tony can pull this off because he SAW the memories in qubit's head so automatically has the knowledge qubit does.
the memories were "BLURRY", some clear, some "FAST FADING". and while he saw qubit learning to use bette's powers, there is no indication that TONY now has that info. by that logic, tony should have been able to perform all of qubit's plan WITHOUT QUBIT. but he couldn't. he admitted that he saw the plan, but that was it. we know some memories were blurred so he was NOT able to learn everything.
blurred memories, and needing qubit's help and guidance=tony couldn't do what qubit could. and based on that fact, we absolutely can NOT assume tony has the knowledge needed to create his own black hole..... not without something FAR more substantial.
id is right, his powers and senses DID evolve. but how much? could he now perceive qubit's HQ? see through the ship?
and THAT is the fundamental problem with choosing plutonian in this type of match. we really have no true idea of just how much he DID evolve, or what he is ACTUALLY capable of. assumptions, 'potential', these things can't count for much in a match like this. nate is a proven powerhouse, with quantifiable feats. tony's evolved powers were shown in such a limited light it is impossible to accurately infer from them their limits. he was also still learning--meaning he didn't have full control of these abilities yet. making it even HARDER to extrapolate limits.... all these unknowns against a proven force like nate?
as far as his finding me: maybe he could, eventually--but he keeps forgetting the illusions. they would absolutely detain him (as they had qabiri chasing his tail) for a few seconds while i rummaged his thoughts and found the necessary memories to finish him off. with the illusions attacking him, he WOULD NOT BE LOOKING FOR ME--at least not initially. so whether he could or couldn't find me is irrelevant. it would take seconds to find the memories i need and end the fight psychosomatically.
his showing against his eleos parents isn't nearly enough to assume i couldn't get into his mind. their own abilities were almost wholly unknown....
these next couple scans are really important--they show that (a) tony really could NOT get all the info he needed from qubit's head, making it even MORE difficult to believe he might know how to make a black hole...., and (b) it shows that, despite his evolution, he was NOT invulnerable, and he COULD be lied to:
basically is comes down to how much credence you want to give to the idea that tony can do "anything". do we then assume he can take out thanos? odin? where do the assumptions end?
i've shown how powerful nate is, how powerful his mind is. my attack is as simple as it gets--port, illusions, mind read and take him out with his own memories. no massive display of power needed. but i COULD go toe-to-toe if needed. or i could simply drain him of his power as i showed in the second post--a deadly attack given he is a PSIONIC being....
and here is one more option: this was what happened when a young nate confronted an alternate (yet fully powered) magneto (the same mags who destroyed APOCALYPSE):
My point is. Despite Leo’s best efforts this will become a physical match. It takes the power to snuff out stars to damage Plutonian. Unfortunately X-Man tops out at planet wrecking. Which is far short, and simply not enough,
But Id! TELEPATHY!
Absolutely X-Man is a monstrous Telepath. But not strong enough to have his way with Tony.
Point 1, from Post 1: Plutonian evolved to the point that his mind is naturally guarded from telepaths.
Point 2, from Post 2: His mind is so well guarded that even the Eleos can not read his mind. The Eleos being Plutonians true parents, and wield Psionic Powers orders above Plutonian and X-Man.
Point 3, of Post 3.
This is from X-Man issue 75. The last issue of his run, and when X-Man was in his Shaman form, at his Peak.
code:Harvester: But that’s not what you want to ask me, is it? Go ahead. Read my mind if you like.
X-Man: I cant. Your minds to strange, the pieces are there. But not in any structure I understand.
X-Man: You’re an Alien.
Leo, if the glove don’t fit. You must acquit. No mental foolery neuters your offensive. This means:
No mental drain.
No Power cut off.
No Projecting illusions in my head.
No mind reading.
No trauma reliving through the use of your Psychosomatics.
No Telepathy makes it a physical battle, one which you cannot win.
I also find going intangible useless when in the High Herald tier, every other character in this tier has some form of affecting intangible characters, through whatever means.
In Plutonians case, unconsciously can affect matter to make them softer, or denser. http://i.imgur.com/Ny10sB2.jpg
Later on he masters how to manipulate atomic density here. http://i.imgur.com/CGCKlXw.jpg
code:Rule #4. Non-offensive matter manipulation is allowed.
According to the ruleset, non-offensive matter manipulation is allowed. Forcing a character to become tangible is not offensive.
Tony applied his psionics to negate the moons inertia. If he clutched on to the moon, its just the authors illustrations to show how much effort it took Tony to do so.
The effort here is considerably less.
The starting distance between the two of us is 130 Yards. Nate is 5”9 and weighs 135 Ibs.
Well within the limits of what Tony has shown. If we use the Moon as point of reference. He negated the inertia of something that is roughly 14.6 million square miles. There is a lot more to this feat, but I’ll leave that for another argument.
You say, Inertial Negation is not possible.
You Say, Inertial Negation is not a big deal.
Yet you’ve been arguing against it, for the past 3 posts now.
Yes even your thoughts would be suspended. All energy and matter exist in a state of flux. In a state of constant movement. Your neurons need to fire to convince, whatever thought. If that movement is negated, there is no thought-lead-action.
At the start of the match you planned to teleport, and escape harm’s way. You cannot, your inertia was negated by Tony. What follows is a physical battle.
Your reaction will be an attempt to use telepathic might to take out Tony. You will fail, Tony’s mind has naturally evolved to keep telepaths out.
You will use your own physical force to defeat Tony. A destructive battle will take place, the Earth will shatter. But ultimately it’s not enough, the force to destroy Earth is NOT enough against someone that can withstand the force to snuff out the Stars.
Plutonian will pull a Shun Goku Satsu and land a Black Hole as a Flashy Super finisher. (please log in to view the image)