Rules:
No prep
Standard Equipment
BFR with no possibility of returning in a reasonable time is a loss
Opening + 2 posts
Posters are in full control of the characters
Arena:
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Opponents start at opposite corners of the ring on the ground.
Deadline: Monday.
Good luck!
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
OK, reading the room, I think the consensus is likely that I’m the underdog here. Sue is up against a versatile psychic, and she lost the previous round to a psychic (Emma Frost).
But I was in control of Emma, and I very narrowly won that match. I only won because my opponent tried to do something complicated with Invisible Woman, which gave Emma the smallest delay to exploit with a mindblast. So, for this match, the mantra is keep it really simple. Invisible Woman can and should win this match because her power output outright dwarfs Sinister's, and she's faster on the trigger.
The Plan: the instant the match starts, Sue is going to replicate this feat, and crush everything in 0.5 km of her.
For context, Cyclops, Emma and Invisible Woman are all captured and left powerless. Pixie rescues them, and Scott says "Forget me and release Sue first." Because he knows that she's the biggest powerhouse in the room. Then, kaboom.
And that's exactly what will happen in this match:
Sue flattens everything around her
Sue goes invisible and maintains the assault
If necessary, Sue uses the time she's bought to bypass Sinister's shields and rip him apart
Speed
Invisible Woman's power's work at the speed of thought:
So, the attack will happen at least as fast as Sinister's, but in all likelihood it will happen faster. At that point, Sinister will be goo, and will not be able to sustain a telepathic assault which requires concentration. I know that Sinister is hard to kill, but it's entirely possible to KO him with brute force, and Sue is bringing a bazooka to a knife fight.
At this point, Sue will turn invisible, which will make it that much harder to locate her for a psychic attack. If SuperMutant is going to argue that Sinister can mindblast her, he'll need to show Sinister locating and shutting down an opponent with extreme speed. I'm not arguing that Sinister can't do it, but that he can't do it while he is goo, and that he can't do it in a matter of seconds... which is all that it will take Sue to bypass his shields and tear him apart.
Sinister's Shields
What about Sinister's shields?
Sue easily alters the molecular density of her attacks to bypass Dr. Doom's shields:
1. That version of Invisible Woman was being influenced by Malice, Sue's evil counterpart. But Malice does not effect Sue's power levels, she's just more ruthless with them (I already conceded this point debating against IW in the previous match). Further: she actually relies on Sue's own lessons from Reed on how to alter the molecular density of her forcefields, and there is other evidence of Sue doing this exactly. Finally, per the fourth scan, the real Sue is in there, and shared all those experiences, so she knows exactly how to repeat the feat.
2. Mr. Sinister is no Dr. Doom. If Invisible Woman takes one page to bypass Victor's shields, she's going to get past Sinister's in half the time. Like I said above, this should take seconds.
At this point in the match, if Sinister is still conscious after the initial blast, Sue will rip him apart.
Three steps:
Sue flattens everything around her
Sue goes invisible and maintains the assault
If necessary, Sue uses the time she's bought to bypass Sinister's shields and rip him apart
If Mr. Sinister survives, he'll do so remembering who's the most powerful member of the F4.
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
Smurph believes that the Invisible Woman will defeat Mr. Sinister. So, I will have to burst his bubble literally lol.
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Therefore, telepathy-blitz for the win as Sue has already lost in this tourney that same way against a powerful psychic. And Sinister is a powerful psychic plus energy projection, healing factor, cellular structure control, teleportation, shape shifting, and etc. Hate to use a similar tactic again, but it’s the most straight forward, fastest, and easiest to my victory.
So once again this scan dooms the Invisible Woman as it clearly show that her forcefield does not block tp.
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Therefore, my opponent and myself are in total agreement that:
So bell rings starting match.
I immediately shield myself in case Smurph tries sneaky internal bubble attacks (which still wouldn't work).
And simultaneously put Sue to sleep with tp. As seen below it doesn’t matter at all if her force field is up.
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That scan ends this match because I’m doing the exact same thing, “with a single thought, I can penetrate the unseen field around Susan Richards and put her soundly to sleep.” Soon as our match start, I’m just thinking 2 words. Shield (for myself) and sleep (for my opponent).
Just 2 words shield + sleep and this happens simultaneously. I didn’t clearly indicate that shield + sleep happens at the same time in my last match, so I will correct that now. Notice below that Sinister can have his back turn from a blood lusted Havok and still be completely shielded from his attack, while simultaneously binding Cyclops with TK the entire time.
Sinister can take a psychic ambush from Emma Frost, plus a lightning attack channeled through Storm’s special weapon at the same time. He responds by blocking Frost from his mind and stopping her from communicating with her team. While also shielding against Storm mega lightning and casually attacking other X-men with TK.
In a fight with the Omega level mutant Nate Grey, Sinister gets attacked psionically, telekinetically, and physically simultaneously. He is still able to immediately recover and get the upper hand.
So not only can Sinister defend and attack at the same time, he can also defend against both mental and physical attacks at the same time. Moreover he can defend against TP and TK simultaneously. While Sue can’t even defend against just TP alone, Sinister is more than capable of resisting her internal bubble attacks.
It is quite clear that my shield blocks both internal and external attacks from Sue. But even w/o shielding, I have complete cellular structure control, shapeshifting, and a powerful healing factor. Sue really couldn’t due any significant damage to me.
X-Man blasted Sinister in half, and Sinister didn’t even stop talking lol.
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A blood-lusted X-Man tried to completely disintegrate Sinister, the attack doesn’t even slow down Sinister.
Sinister has effortlessly used TP on those who actually have some form of resistance unlike Sue. Pro X stated that Magik has “an extra-ordinarily powerful and sophisticated psionic shield.” He was having trouble trying to get through her barrier, and knew it would require great effort on his part to break through.
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Another psychic couldn’t read her mind, for example
Namor has a very strong will which also give him a high degree of resistance against mind control. He was able to break free of the Puppet Master’s control by his sheer mental energy, and able to expel Dr. Strange from his mind.
So unlike Sue, Magik actually has significant resistance to TP and Namor is resistant to mind control. But as seen below Sinister easily mind-controlled them along with Cyclops, Storm, and Colossus. Sinister mentally took away their free will, and stopped all of them from moving simultaneously.
So even if Sue had some resistance to TP (which she does not), Sinister would still be very capable of one-shotting her with TP, and mind controlling her.
Smurph has no way around Sinister putting Sue to sleep, and she can’t even hurt Sinister with her forcefields. However, Sinister forcefields have never been breached.
So again match starts:
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replaces the Futurist
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Bubble burst and match over while I literally never even moved a muscle-- just thought two words “shield + sleep”
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
I. Sue has no chance of getting pass my TK shield.
Dr. Doom’s personal defense shield is tech based and not a TK shield. Sinister’s TK is down to the molecular level, so she wouldn’t be able to seed in between the atoms of his shields. And Sue had prep training by Reed to specifically bypass Doom’s shield on this one occasion. Smurph’s second scan between Doom and Sue shows this. Moreover, it was Malice in Sue’s body that actually did it. And Smurph claims that Sue was able to bypass his shield in one page. This is completely false, as again in his second scan Sue states, “We haven’t just been fighting all this time… All this time the atoms of my forcefield have been seeding in.” That means that since she first attacked Doom in his castle where their fight began, it took eight pages not just one for her to bypass his shield. This whole encounter is linked to below.
LOL so even assuming that Sue could bypass my shields the same way, it would take a significant amount of time to do so. LOL Way more time than for me to simply think sleep at the speed of thought. But wait it gets better, Smurph’s first scan in Sue vs Doom fight shows Doom being able to enter her mind, before she can even get thru his defense shield. That’s how Doom found out that Malice was already possessing and controlling Sue’s body. So let’s just say for argument’s sake, Smurph’s plan goes exactly how he wants it. He does an area of effect attack (AOE) my shield is up, and for some strange reason Sue doesn’t go to sleep immediately. Before she could even get thru my shield according to Smurph’s own scans, Sinister has way more than enough time to enter her mind and put her to sleep using TP. This match is over right here (well really at the start but if we are just using Smurph’s scans then right here).
And the scans in my link clearly shows that Doom was holding back not wanting to significantly harm Valeria’s mother. Furthermore, Sue hasn’t even attempted that tactic again to bypass Doom’s shield or anyone else’s for that matter. And again it was Malice who actually performed the feat and not Sue. This is what happens a very healthy majority of the time when she tries her force-fields against Doom. And not just her but the entire F4 were being crushed by the energy from Doom’s force-field and Sue couldn’t do anything, but state “its even more powerful than my force-field.”
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And still it gets even better because a mind-controlled and bloodlusted Sue had her power blocked by a wait for it…...a TK shield from Jean Grey. Plus a stronger version of Jean Grey had her TK attack effortlessly block along with simultaneous attacks from Storm, Dazzler, and Iceman by Sinister as shown in my OP. (please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)
So not only has Sinister blocked a stronger version of Jean, he also destroyed her TK shield after just getting his power. Below Jean and Cyclops traveled back in time to when Essex first became Sinister.
Therefore if a weak and just resurrected Jean can stop Sue’s force-field, surely Sinister can very easily. Especially since Sue has never bypass a TK shield in the manner that Smurph is trying.
II. Smurph really likes to waste Sue’s time and energy.
Let’s revisit his plan.
Why on Earth would Smurph do an AOE attack against one person when there is nothing and nobody else on the battlefield? LOL Sue is flattening nothing b/c there is nothing to flatten, I am shielded. And Again Smurph own scans defeats him, b/c he shows Sue causing an explosion as evidence of what exactly? I’m glad he did that though, b/c all it does is lesser the impact of the force against my shield/body as it is spread out evenly. Therefore the full brunt of her force isn’t even directed at me, plus it slows her down to perform such a large scale and far range attack of .5 km. Meanwhile my speed of thought attack is clearly targeted directly at her, and it cannot be blocked or avoided. And Sinister has tanked far more dangerous explosions than that, even without shields. When the powerful energy vampire Threnody explodes right next to them, Sinister is unharmed while classic Rogue needed assistance to even stand up.
Notice that Rogue got a free and direct speed punch on Sinister, which didn’t harm him at all. He just responded, “That was quite the forceful blow, Rogue! But as you see...It was quite useless.
The really funny thing about Smurph wasting all that effort to get through my shield is that, I don’t even need shielding. The Thing was able to take a direct force-field attack as oppose to an ineffective AOE attack and punch it back onto Sue, knocking her out. All her attack did to the Thing was make him a little winded, but it didn’t stop him from being able to counter attack immediately. And as I have shown b/c of my shapeshifting, cellular structure control, and healing factor, I am way more durable than the Thing.
As far as Sue going invisible, how exactly is that going to stop my mindblitz lol? All I have to do is sense her mind and since she is the only mind around except for mine, I don’t even have to scan for her. But hey I’m all for Sue continuing to divide up her concentration and focus on things that won’t help her anyway.
Now, Smurph mention something about ripping me apart, and smacking me into goo so I can’t use my power.
Yeah even as goo I can avoid Nightcrawler’s attack and teleport. In other words, I can still use my powers.
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As a Venom gooey-like substance I have the External Cassandra at my mercy.
And in a similar fashion a mind controlled Reed was able to have his wife at his mercy.
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III. Smurph is defeated by his own arguments.
In his previous match against Sue, Smurph basically argued that his opponent was using a convoluted and multi-step approach which would be ineffective. B/c he was doing a simple and straightforward mind-blitz that had worked on panel and couldn’t be shielded against. That is very ironic wouldn’t you say Judges? I am putting Sue to sleep with one word and it has worked on panel, and it could not be shielded against. Smurph is using brute force which is probably the worst attack one could use against Sinister. Moreover that force attack is spread out over a large over for no reason, thereby becoming less impactful. Plus Sue is turning invisible just because she likes to go to sleep naked I guess.
Maybe Smurph forgot so quickly in his old age, but there was one main reason why his previous match was so close . Because they could 1-shot each other utilizing the same level of speed to do it. Smurph has basically admitted that he can’t one shot me, especially with my shield up. Even if he could get through my shield (he certainly can’t), it would take him the Battlezone equivalent time of 8 comic pages. That’s why I don’t even have to respond to the ridiculous notion that Sue is significantly faster or more powerful. I am moving at the speed of thought which can be faster than light for high level telepaths, crazy comic logic but its canon and happens a lot in comics.
With the statement below, I’m guessing Smurph was trying to show somehow that Sue was more powerful than Emma thereby somehow more powerful than Sinister. A laughable attempt again and doomed by his own scans. Smurph wrote
Or maybe just maybe like your scans show, its b/c that Emma had a psy-blocking collar on lol. So guards are coming Cyclops can’t use his power b/c of some black gunk crap on his face. It only makes since to free the one person who can use their powers immediately once freed.
In conclusion, I’m using a basic and simple one-shot attack at the speed of thought that my opponent simply has no counter for and can’t defend against. I have vanquish Smurph with his own scans and words. There is really no coming back from that.
Now time for my favorite scans for this BZ. And this is the only “reaction time” that matters. Who goes to sleep faster Domino or Sue?
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I laid out a simple, powerful, and provable plan in my OP:
Sue flattens everything around her
Sue goes invisible and maintains the assault
If necessary, Sue uses the time she's bought to bypass Sinister's shields and rip him apart
That's still the plan, and it's still simple to execute. As I'm about to show, Sue is a consistent powerhouse. Sinister might be versatile, but he's extremely inconsistent, and none of his powers match up to Sue's.
Invisible Woman: God of Force-fields
Mutant has made a few claims to assert that Sue can't get past his force-field:
a) Sinister's shields are 'down to the molecular level.'
Scans of this? (lol, I doubt I'll get a response to this request). There's nothing special about TK that makes it harder to bypass than all the energies at Doom's command.
b) It took Sue eight pages to get past Doom's shields.
^ This is just a misinterpretation of the fight. The fight ended on the 8th page, but Sue only actually starts using her shields on Doom's person on page 6, and she reveals that she's bypassed his force-field on page 7. Sue's invisible forces are drawn in by the artist, so we can see when she starts attacking Doom's armor, which is exactly when she says
code:"You have your own force-field -- your armor gives you that, but --"
So we know, through the artist and the writer, exactly when Sue turns her attention to Doom's shields: one page before she breaches them.
And to reiterate, Doom >>> Sinister
c) Those scans are of Malice, not Sue, so she can't repeat the feat.
I repeat, from my OP: the feat was based on Sue's experiences, using her own powers, and she was 'present' for it, seeing as she recalls the whole fight later. Sue doesn't normally utilize her own powers this way, but she can. As two of my opponents have stressed to me this tournament: we are the ones in control, we decide our character's mindset and power use.
Invisible Woman is a powerhouse
You may have heard that Sue Storm is the most powerful member of the F4.
How hard can she hit?
Sue sends AU Hulk, Thing, Dr. Strange, Wolverine, Captain Marvel, Captain America, and Cyclops flying with a single blast.
Sue easily halts combat and contains the individual fighters, including: Hulk, AU Hulk, She Hulk, Spectrum, Captain Marvel, Captain Britain, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, and many others... and she does it all while the fighting is on the ground, and she's on the helicarrier.
Sinister does not have the shield feats or reflexes to block an attack of this speed and magnitude.
Notice that all of my feats of Invisible Woman are from recent comics, where she is more powerful by many increments than her old days as Invisible Girl.
Now notice that all of Mutant's anti-Sue scans are from old, outdated books.
I can back up my claims about Sue with much stronger evidence than his. How about the claims about Mr. Sinister?
Where are the feats of Sinister's instant shields? I can show instant, speed of thought attacks from Invisible Woman; where is the scan of Sinister erecting a shield at the speed of thought? And per my opponent's post, in Marvel, speed of thought can be faster than speed of light (see Sue blocking many lasers after they're fired, in my OP).
Mr. Sinister "durability"
So a pissed off Invisible Woman is powerful enough to wreak a massive base/facility with a single attack, and powerful enough to send the Hulk and Thing flying with a single pulse, but Mr. Sinister is going to laugh off her attack:
Lol, ok. Let's investigate how Mr. Sinister fares against energy attacks:
But, to be fair, those are all from older comics, so let's go more recent. Sinister recently took on all of the X-Men by mass producing hundreds of clones of himself. These clones were exact genetic replicas of him; more evidence = https://postimg.org/image/grkybqqt7/. And yes, they had all the same powers, even telepathy (get to that in a moment...)
Further, Super Mutant cannot claim that these Mr. Sinisters are different, because he's been using feats from these clones for the entire tournament
So how did these new and improved Sinisters fare against basic attacks?
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...lol.
As soon as that happens, Sinister's telepathic control drops, but his consciousness just jumps into another one of his hive clones, and the sniped Sinister is 100% dead/ko'd. So before the next Sinister can take up the assault, Colossus steps in. Remember how Sinister was supposed to laugh off Piotr's attacks?
Again, this is the exact same Sinister army that you've seen Super Mutant use over and over now in his scans. For reference, it's from Uncanny X-Men (2012) 1-3 and 14-17. He can't have his cake and eat it too; if it's only the Sinister of old that's durable, then all of those durability feats are inadmissible now.
Sinister's inconsistent telepathy
OK, I mentioned that Super Mutant's feat of Sinister seeming to stop the minds of multiple opponents at once:
Scans look familiar? That's because it's the Sinister army... meaning that there are hundreds/thousands of telepaths there.
Note what Sinister says:
code:Hive-mind, Scott, with me sitting on top and directing everything as a monarch should.
And then notice all the floating Sinisters behind him... also using telepathy, with the same psychic energy drawn around their heads?
This is the best feat of Sinister's telepathy, and it's actually Sinister x1000
Now, to add insult to injury, even with a psychic hive mind and special tech, none of which he'll have in this battle, Sinister is still only equal to an untrained, unskilled Hope who copied Emma's powers:
So, I reiterate: Mr. Sinister is no Emma Frost. Super Mutant has been trying to sell his best feats as regular Sinister, when those feats require significant context, and are irrelevant to this fight.
So, where are the feats of Sinister locating a hidden enemy and casually shutting off their mind? In Mutant's one remaining scan, where Sinister tells Domino to sleep, he's gesturing right at her. How hard is it for him to scan an area and find minds? How skilled is Sinister, actually, given that he had every advantage and couldn't outfight Hope Summers?
To answer my own questions, I'd like to present Mr. Sinister getting the psychic tables turned on him by Spider-Man
Anyways, if Sinister can't even make a roomful of enemies go to sleep, and actually gets chumped by Parker, then I don't think his telepathy is all it's been cracked up to be in this tournament.
In this tournament, Invisible Woman has won against Jean Grey, and (narrowly) lost against Emma Frost. The deciding factor in each fight was Sue's initial action: her attacks work at the same speed as telepathy, her reflexes are faster, and she hits harder. If Sue's very first action is a strong, reflexive attack from the get-go, she should demolish any meta tier telepath.
Mr. Sinister has huge variability in his power levels, and despite that, Invisible Woman is still conclusively faster and more powerful than Sinister. Sinister's highs include smacking around teams of X-Men, including the likes of Rogue, Storm, and Dazzler. Invisible Woman's highs (which are much more consistent with her overall power level) include smacking around teams of Avengers, including Hulk, Thor, and Dr. Strange.
and because her shields are strong enough to contain three Hulks at once, consider how much it will hurt when she instantly brings that force down on Sinister's person:
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...he'll look at lot worse than Taskmaster.
Now, Super Mutant has made the lofty claim that Sinister could straight up tank this attack, because he's taken punches from Classic Rogue, even though comparing a Rogue punch to a Sue blast is like comparing a Daredevil punch to a Cyclops blast.
Power differential aside though, the claim ignores Sinister's many embarrassingly low durability showings. Over the course of his history, he's been routinely ripped apart and liquified by energy attacks:
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And more recently he's been killed by bullets, brute force, and lasers. He also killed one of his own bodies with a bullet to the head:
In an earlier match, Super Mutant claimed that the above scans showed Sinister 'teleporting before someone else shoots him in the head'... but as the scans clearly show, it's Sinister himself who draws the gun and kills one of his many bodies.
The problem in this match is that Sinister only has one very squishy body, and that Super Mutant has knowingly been using the above version of Sinister for this match, and the whole tournament... we take the good with the bad for our characters, and Sinister lately has some real low showings.
Speaking of the bad, it's really bad for Sinister that he needs so much prep to match up against Emma Frost, and it's bad that he needs that tech and prep to accomplish the one thing that Super Mutant is counting on to win the match: scan for minds (remember, Sue is invisible and will not be easily detected), and put those minds to sleep.
It's doubly bad because Sinister has no scans otherwise of accomplishing the above, and he does have instances of failing to 'sleep' Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, and Spider-Man (notice that they're all still awake, just in pain. Sue can keep fighting while in pain). None of those characters are telepaths or have special shielding, and Spider-Man of all people is able to outright resist Sinister's commands, and successfully turns the table on him.
It's triply bad because Mutant used the evidence of Sinister nation, without telling anybody that Sinister was leveraging psychic battalions and super tech and a hive mind, to argue that Sinister > or = Xavier, Emma and others. And he needs to do that, because Sinister simply doesn't have the feats that Emma and Xavier do. Specifically, he doesn't have any feats of sheer range, or of locating minds Cerebra-Style, and both Emma and Xavier have those in spades. Without those feats, we simply don't know if Sinister can find Sue or quickly shut her down without using a no limits fallacy.
The one scan that Mutant HAS provided of Sinister directly sleeping somebody, with Domino, we can see Sinister directly gesturing at and focusing on Domino, and we don't have any other context to go on for how Sinister accomplishes it. Is other tech involved? Can we trust Super Mutant at his word?
Remember, even in the worst case scenario where Sinister survives the initial blast and manages to erect a shield, all that Sue needs to do is avoid a 'sleep' command for a few seconds before she's penetrated Sinister's shields and ripped him apart, exactly like she did to Dr. Doom. And remember, in that exact same match, she resists Dr. Doom's mental attack.
She resists it because she has Malice in her mind... and Malice hasn't gone anywhere, she's still residing in Sue's mind.
Finally, to conclude, I'll briefly touch on speed again:
Super Mutant needs to prove that Sinister would move fast enough to block Sue's attack with his shield. To do that, he needs to prove that Sinister moves faster than Sue, because the actions are happening at equal speed (thought), so the difference in reflexes between Invisible Woman and Sinister should make the difference here.
Judges, I don't think Mutant has made that case, and I think Sue is noticeably faster than him, which makes sense, because she has way more appearances to her name, and she is regularly blocking lasers after they're fired, etc, in those appearances. If however, you think that speed is a wash, the balance should conclude that Sinister is crushed by the opening attack: Sinister's shield originates around him once he thinks 'shield'; Sue's attack originates at every point in a radius around her once she thinks 'boom'.
This means that even as the shield starts to form, before it can block attacks, all the points inside the shield are simultaneously getting squished. And based on the above scans (Colossus squishing Sinister's head...), the fight should end there.
In case you buy that Sinister's healing factor makes a sudden reappearance after all these showings, then he'll be healing from goop, leaving Susan lots of time to rip through his shield and scatter his molecules to the wind.
Good game, Mutant.
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
Smurph’s entire response is mostly an irrelevant respect thread for Sue, that shows he has no answer for Sinister putting Sue to sleep with TP. Let’s examine them beginning with Sinister’s durability.
I.Smurph stated:
I really like that comparison and the scan that is linked below. Smurph shows this scan with an unshielded Sinister outright unphased by a point blank “pure concussive force” attack. Lol Sinister is calmly talking with most of his midsection gone, and he’s not in any pain or impeded in any way. He even states “Haven’t you learned by now how futile it is to physically assault Mr. Sinister?!” lol I guess Smurph haven’t learned and what’s remarkable is that Smurph brings attention to this by posting the scans. I know by the now, the Judges are probably tired of me showing Sinister blocking Cyclops’ blast or being unaffected by it. But hey, my opponent continues to support and strengthen my arguments, and remember Smurph compared Cyclops concussive force to Sue’s attack. So if Cyclops at point blank range cannot affect an unshielded Sinister, what hope does Sue have against a shielded Sinister especially before she gets put to sleep at the speed of thought?
Brute force is practically useless against Mr. Sinister. So we have a speed blitzing Rogue who couldn’t affect Sinister at all, same for Cyclops over and over again, same for the tk attacks of Nate Grey, same for Colossus, same for Havok. Smurph has not and cannot show anyone koing (high meta/classic) Sinister with brute force or concussive force. And this is his whole plan, plus Sue would have to ko him in 1-shot behind his shield.
Cable with a temporary fix for the t-o virus was unable to do any harm to Sinister. Even after using his TK to slam Sinister through a building onto the street. And even after throwing a TK enhanced car directly at him causing an explosion. Cable’s tk w/out t-o virus >>> Sue’s force fields
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Now I was wondering throughout the whole tourney when one of my opponents were going to try and use modern Sinister, who has no better than street level physicals stats for the high meta/classic Sinister.
Smurph stated:
Of course they are different, almost a completely new character. This attempt is nothing more than a red herring, Smurph is hoping to cause confusion for the judges. Modern Sinister can transfer his consciousness into clones that he created. So these clones can only use TP if Sinister (called Sinister Prime) places his consciousness into them one at a time. Plus Sinister Prime and his clones do not have any other powers lol. So no energy projection, no tk shields, no healing factor, no shapeshifting, no cellular structure control, and etc. In other words all the powers that would make Sinister a high meta are gone lol. So that version of Sinister wouldn’t even be in this tourney, and it’s laughable to even try to equate the two. They are almost two separate character except modern Sinister Prime keeps TP although in a much weaker body and teleportation tech. So in this tourney I have only used modern Sinister TP and teleportation tech two abilities that classic Sinister also used consistently and at higher levels. For example I have not used Sinister beating the Phoenix Five.
This would be no different if I tried to limit the Invisible Woman to an era when her abilities were at their weakest, when she couldn’t do anything but turn herself invisible. So Smurph’s whole section on AvX Sinister and Regenesis Sinister is irrelevant, b/c I’m certainly not nor have I been using the durability and physical stats of that substantially much weaker version of Sinister.
Moreover, I must state that it’s really disappointing for Smurph to try and confuse the judges and readers this way. Sinister’s clones were nothing but fodder, below Sinister Prime even states as much, saying that they wouldn’t even live a day. And Sinister’s psychic battalion and tech spires was only used to try and hide his kingdom from the Phoenix 5, in which P5 Emma destroyed before they even arrived there. Smurph mixes up (I hope unintentionally) Regenesis battle with a prep battle against the P5 in AVX. Again Sinister Prime was the only one who had any powers, and that was just TP. The rest of his clones had just normal regular human physical stats. That’s why they used guns, cannons, and other such weapons.
There is no evidence that Sue can bypass a TK shield by seeping through the atoms of the shield which is a vital part of my opponent’s plan. Smurph has not shown Sue doing that plus she has to do it before I think “sleep.”
II. Smurph stated
Not only has Jean Grey blocked her forcefields with TK, but so has Apocalypse despite being ambushed by her. And here Sue was using her max power, trying to protect and save her son.
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Also Doom’s power >>>>>>> Sue. Rarely does Doom have trouble getting through her shields see the scan below. Also I’m still waiting for Sue using her force field to seep through the atoms of Doom’s tech shield or anyone else for that matter, besides the one time where she had prep instructions from Reed and Malice performed the feat. And even then she said “this whole time.. I’ve been seeping through the atoms” again that means the entire fight with Doom. She specifically said “this whole time” twice, which does not indicate only seconds which was Smurph’s original position, but a significant amount of time. But that doesn’t even matter as much b/c “Doom was able to enter her mind before she could bypass his shield.” So Sinister will enter her mind and put her to sleep before she could bypass his shield, even if she could bypass it and 1-shot him.
She was having trouble maintaining her forcefield from just stun flares and got captured by Doombots. (please log in to view the image)
SMURPH IS DEFEATED BY HIS OWN ARGUMENTS
III. Smurph stated
And I couldn’t agree more with Smurph’s reasoning which also applies in this match. Sinister will use TP just like Emma did, and put her to sleep with TP just like the Futurist did on-panel.
Even more misrepresentations by Smurph. Hive-mind Sinister doesn’t receive any kind of amp, all he does is have the ability to transfer his conscious into a clone. So there is nothing inconsistent about his TP, which has blocked Emma Frost directly twice. Again Smurph shows an out of context scan of Emma using a mental back-door based on Cyclops brain patterns to only very briefly stop Sinister. As you see below that was easily countered and Emma was locked out again by Sinister.
And Hope with both Emma’s power and Magik’s power was only equal in TP to this much weaker version of Sinister. And Exodus stated that basically the top 5 telepaths were himself, Pro. X, Mr. Sinister, Emma, and Phoenix seen below. And in my last post I showed how Sinister was able to block Emma out of his mind plus stop her from communicating to her team, while physically fighting the X-men. So by direct head to head matchup, by reputation, and by feats, Sinister and Emma are most definitely peers in TP. Besides there’s a reason why Smurph choose to use Sue instead of Emma against me.
No limit fallacy of Sue’s force-fields. She most definitely has a limit, and great concentration is required to maintain them. And significant brute force especially repeated strikes have often broken through them. Together with any kind of backlash that makes her feel pain.
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Even at the end of his last post, Smurph still misrepresents:
As that Spider-Man was Ben Reilly and not Peter, plus as you can see by the scans, Sinister effortlessly had Storm, Cyclops, Archangel, and Iceman on their knees in pain from his psychic assault. And all of the X-Men there had psy shielding. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/x-me...as/4000-150052/
Finally Sinister just think two words “shield + sleep” to end this match. I have a proven one shot power that Sue cannot shield against. And it’s coming at her at the speed of thought which for high level telepaths like Sinister can be ftl speed. And by the way “shield + sleep” happens at the same time, a point that my opponent has yet to even argue against.
First off let me apologize for my tardiness and congratulate both contestants on a fine finale.
So let’s get to it.
Smurph’s wasted no time focusing his strategy on the newer slew of “fodder sinisters” who have been showing up in the x-books. His logic makes sense. As it stands Sinister with his shitty durability has more showings than the good old sinisters who could laugh off the x-men’s best. He established Sue’s speed and her ability to contain some real powerhouses. Over the years she’s been consistently portrayed as such.
On the other hand Sue’s also been consistently portrayed as someone with waning telepathic defenses. There really is not a single shred of doubt in my mind that Sinister would demolish her once he has her in his telepathic crosshairs. And that turned out to be the focal point of this debate. How fast can Sinister unleash a telepathic bedlam? And how long does it take for Sue to flatten him? My friends, I have no good answers for you.
This ****ing Tourney devolved into the same debate. It’s been done 4 times already by now. How fast can Sue pull the trigger? How fast can Telepath-X pull the trigger? By the end of the day I don’t believe that the showings of recent Sinister overwrites all the other showings where he has exceptional defenses. I believe that Sinister’s reaction time is clearly in the superhuman and that while it could have been argued better, Supermutant did a competent enough job to justify an edge to him in that category.
My vote goes to supermutant
While I thought both debaters did a great job on going point for point, calling into question each others claims and solidifying their strategies in each reply. Nevertheless, in my mind Supermutant got the better end of the trade: he convinced me he was free to use the full powers of Mr. Sinister and that he could dispose of Sue at reasonable speed. He also defended his ability to depend with his shield against an attack explicitly coming from an outside range. Taking all the elements of each poster's strategy, I felt that Supermutant came enough on top to make his victory more or less clear.
Thanks to both for giving us this fine match and sorry that it took me so long to post my reply. Your debates always make for a fun read.
I've read this final matchup and tried to explore every aspect of the arguments presented by both sides. Smurph, touts Invisible Woman's superior speed and the efficiency of her shields both offensively and defensively. Supermutant, promoted the myriad of abilities possesed by Mr. Sinister varying from telekinesis, telepathy, super-strength, enhanced invulnerability and speed.
In the end my judgement comes down to essentially this. This battle wasn't simply Smurph vs Supermutant but rather Smurph vs Supermutant AND himself. Nearly every point posed by Smurph to bolster Sue was not only countered by Supermutant but ALSO by the words of Smurph himself.
In every post provided by Supermutant he provided proof of Mr. Sinister's advantages in this matchup; and then further strengthened these points with quotes from Smurph who argued against Sue's abilities in a previous battle.
I don't believe Sue's speed is enough to surpass that of Essex to gain an advantage. After that we are left with Sinister's plethora of abilities against the durability of Sue's shields. It was shown by Smurph himself that telepathy can bypass Sue's shields and Essex is a telepath powerful enough to accomplish this.
WINNER- Supermutant
P.S. Supermutant is merely a PAPER CHAMPION as I THE LORDOFBATTLEZONES was NEVER truly defeated!!!
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Jan 31st, 2018 01:14 PM
