Philosophia will be repping a non-all-out, Byrne era Superman -- that is to say, Superman cannot enter his 'Doomsday-killing' mindset here.
Damborgson will be repping Blue Marvel.
Battle will take place on The Sacred World of the Kai:
(please log in to view the image)
*Assume the field is completely indestructible.
*NO BFR.
*NO sundipping or external amps of any kind.
*Victory by KO or death.
There will be a 3 post limit(1 opening post, 1 rebuttal post, and 1 closing post.)
The match will begin Friday(10/12), and conclude Monday(10/15).
*The judges will be: -CosmicComet
-deathslash
-xJLxKing
-Pr
-NemeBro
Good luck to both contestants!
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 12th, 2018 at 09:40 AM
I will let the scan-dump for the following posts. But for now, an overview.
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This may sound weird to start with --- but what you're about to read here are two different topics, that are related, but nevertheless separate.
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Damborg doesn't know it yet, but by the end of this, he'll reluctantly agree.
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These two discussions will be:
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1. The fight [i.e. what you vote on, based on us taking control of their abilities]
2. The comparison between the characters [i.e. how the stories show them performing]
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I'm taking this opportunity to have an extended discussion on the latter, because the former is, well, clear-cut.
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With that said, let's get this out of the way --
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The FIGHT
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At various points throughout this discussion, empathy will kick in for some of you [and Damborg is a nice dude]. Maybe you'll think of not taking the point I'm about to make as definitive, give him some rope.
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In the dying embers of it, even Damborg will think "I should have asked for the fight with it equalized..."
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But, the fact of the matter is...
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Superman wins, in a battlezone setting, every time. It may sound harsh, but there's no way to get around this.
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You'll have to excuse me for being predictable here, and just pointing out the elephant in the room, but, that "IT" is...
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SPEED -> Blue Marvel is a statue
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Superman's super-speed allows him to move with the utmost ease while time is suspended in a fraction of a nanosecond:
I'm sure many of you already know what that entails but, to give you a perspective on what a nanosecond is (10^(-9) seconds, or 0.000000001s), here's a short explanation:
- something moving at the speed of light [~3,000,000,000 m/s or 186,282 miles/second] moves just 30 cm (1 foot) in a nanosecond. That's smaller than the distance between the tip of your elbow and the top of your index finger.
- A nanosecond is to one second as one second is to 31.7 years.
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And Superman was interacting in a suspended fraction of that.
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It's hard to wrap yourself around the fact that, while a second passes from a combatant's perspective, years pass from the other's.
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But...that's how this fight is. We're not in a comic book. We don't need to make it balanced. There's a reason superspeed is banned in most tourneys.
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Damborg doesn't get to do a single action. If I wanted to let him have one free shot, I would literally have to spend many years just staring at him, as the thought of his first action formed, and then another few years staring at him trying to put it in practice.
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Blue Marvel has nothing. Not in the way of "is his superspeed even approaching that astronomical level?". I mean that as in, it's in doubt he even has what you can call actual superspeed.
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This, for example, will be used as an argument, as it's the only one that even resembles super-speed.
He is blurry, while bullrushing through a portal a being that's not even looking at him, standing a few meters away, then punches him when he tries to get up. _
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Moving in a blurr is such low level of speed, that it's basically made for street levelers. Examples:
Make no mistake - the discussion here is not "Does Blue Marvel superspeed?". Maybe some of you see that as showing low-level superhuman speed. The correct question is "does Blue Marvel have superspeed feats on Superman's level, so as not to make him a statue?". And the answer, painfully clear, is not.
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It's a simple matter for Superman to put his lights out [I assume you're all familiar with Lobo]:
I can, of course, take my time. Time is literally what I have in spades, or decades if you will. Trashing him with my heat vision in all those nice, vulnerable places:
Speaking of which, this makes for a nice transition into..
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The COMPARISON
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What's the first thing that people associate with Byrne-era Superman? "The weak Superman". This is a common misconception and it couldn't be further from the truth.
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To understand this, there's a two key points:
1). Superman is a special case, in that he gets more powerful as time passes. He is split in periods of 'power boosts' [i.e. Byrne, Post-Death, OWAW, Infinite Crisis], but the other heroes/villains [Orion, Martian Manhunter, Lobo, etc.] have no such thing, generally. So when he fights, he does so not against, for example, 'Byrne era Orion'. He does so against Orion period.
2). Superman, even during this period, was the most powerful hero on Earth, and even during this period, he was getting powerful year by year. _
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To give you an example of how formidable Superman was, even then, compared to the rest, let's take a look at the Weird.
Ready Superman? Because I’m about to show you, the difference in our ability. (please log in to view the image)
These are two characters with myths surrounding them, one is that Byrne Superman is the “weak” Superman, and true, he’s not as strong as his later incarnations. By any other standard, this is still Superman however.
The more important myth is that Blue Marvel has yet to adequately prove himself. This is not the case, Blue Marvel is top tier, realistically stronger and more formidable than your standard hero Sentry.
His main villain Anti-Man’s treatment of the OG Mighty Avengers: https://imgur.com/epCuTPL https://imgur.com/Dlrm12p
Casually able to palm the Sentry, who at the time was hitting wicked hard: https://imgur.com/jWlVnWC
Hmm…reminds me of something… https://imgur.com/ED8sADz
Anywho, this is Blue Marvel’s treatment of Antiman: https://imgur.com/DRUrHGj https://imgur.com/cPHwOWJ
Unleashed Antiman (massively enhanced): https://imgur.com/mRSF2R7 https://imgur.com/ewjSG3w https://imgur.com/p4MhS5n
The level that Marvel operates at is truly astounding, as you all saw Antiman casually brushed off the Mighty Avengers but was defeated by Marvel himself.
Now that we have an understanding of the level Blue Marvel operates on… Let’s Analyze what Superman brings to the Table
For someone like Marvel with about 4.5 issues he’s actually been in, Brasheer has a flawless record against the powerset that Superman brings to the table. Super strength, super speed, super durability, flight, and heat vision?
Heh.
Hyperion: https://imgur.com/KHhmzii https://imgur.com/1yEQkPV
King Hyperion: https://imgur.com/nRWP8Nx https://imgur.com/dKIcP8q
Sentry (Trying to take him out) https://imgur.com/yA50vF6 https://imgur.com/7eHaeuM
Nothing there is a surprise to Marvel, nor would it ever be since I am in control of him but he naturally has experience with Superman’s powerset, and he has a winning record. His punches wrapped in energy would be absolutely devastating to Superman. Byrne Superman and the level he operated at
This is still Superman, and with that comes a plethora of showings and feats. But this is a Superman who as described by Philo himself:
“I. This version of Superman was not faster than, or even at lightspeed.
II. His invulnerability was drastically reduced to the point where a big enough explosion, like a 40 megaton one, is capable of knocking him out for extended periods of times.
III. He was nowhere near strong enough to move celestial bodies.
IV. He isn’t capable of breathing in space, and the distances he can travel are very limited.”
Those were John Byrne’s intentions as described by Philo himself, and while they weren’t always carried out that way, for every showing that goes above the standard, there was frequently a showing that put that standard back in place.
Showings like these: https://imgur.com/F6AIQ95 https://imgur.com/rQOcouV https://imgur.com/mwH34U8
Superman more or less operated at a level where nukes would most likely be enough to silence him for a while, a 40megaton thermonuclear explosion was sufficient to put him down for 30 minutes: https://imgur.com/OJANMjU https://imgur.com/LSCtdtf https://imgur.com/LSCtdtf
And Booster Gold confirms that’s about the level Superman is at: https://i.imgur.com/HEzukeE.jpg
Disregard Superman getting hurt in that blast, it was laced with kryptonite.
As mentioned, does Superman have showings higher than these? Duh. Philo will no doubt show you, but for every good showing an equally not so good showing of these times can be found, and it brings down his average.
Blue Marvel on the other hand, does not have that problem.
He may not have that many showings, but he also doesn’t have hardly any low showings, even less that aren’t against higher tier opponents.
Though even if those opponents are higher tier:
Defeats Pagan: https://imgur.com/sINXpwU
Who is this level: https://imgur.com/O8llpJt https://imgur.com/TrO3oNG
So once again, Marvel beats a powerful team stomper.
Now… THE FIGHT
Philo isn’t exactly new at this, so I assume he’s going to for every advantage he’s got, namely speed, or try to immobilize me some way first with freeze breath, something along those lines.
First off, Blue Marvel is a legitimate Super speeder: http://oi62.tinypic.com/25s53br.jpg http://oi60.tinypic.com/348omlg.jpg
Casual flight to the moon in a few moments/
Catches up to galaxy traveling nova after blitzing luke Cage: https://imgur.com/pM8Buju
And Kid Nova is massively FTL when he puts his foot on the gas: http://i.imgur.com/j7aPMnv.jpg
Also, Brasheer’s mind is very capable itself of processing information in massive, universal quantities at once: https://imgur.com/AuVXbcd https://imgur.com/DqtWWsV
So getting overwhelemed, takes a lot of commitment.
Am I as fast as Superman to the dot? Probably not. Am I fast enough to not get turned into a statue instatntly? I don’t see why not thumb up
So Superman is going to come out full on super speed, and trying to blitz me only to find that his attacks aren’t working quite as well as he’d hoped for. For 3 reasons.
1. I’m pretty fast myself
2. I have shields
- Blue Marvel is incredibly versatile with his energies, able to create personalized shields that can take different forms like when he stopped King Hyperions heat vision: https://imgur.com/QZ0d3vR
Except my blue Marvel is not guilty feeling or full of doubt in himself like in the first part of his scuffle with king hyperion, he’s at full capacity.
Was he at full power? Obviously not, but even a fraction of universal power is more than enough to hold back Superman.
And as you can see I can surround my body with a similar aura, one used to block Anti-Man in the same scan: https://imgur.com/ewjSG3w
3. Superman is losing consciousness
Let’s not confuse things here, Blue Marvel easily has the power to knock Superman out. Without question. Ask the sentry: (please log in to view the image)
Though Sentry isn’t the only one to feel the one shot: (please log in to view the image)
That is of course, the ultimate Hulk, the one capable of matching our 616 green Hulk’s fists: https://imgur.com/LC2dsaT
My shielding will protect me from heat vision, from frost breath, from super speed and that leaves strength, where Superman will find himself fighting a losing battle more and more until he is eventually… (please log in to view the image)
Eventually, with every hit and every shot Superman takes he will fade. And it will be sooner than later given the massive right hand on Adam Brasheer. My Omni Blast While Superman is in the area trying to take me down, part of my plan is to let loose a massive AOE attack that will level Superman with the same power that took out the more powerful than ever anti man: (please log in to view the image)
Before it gets said, I’m aware that there was weakness exploitation in play for anti-man, but that won’t matter much. The blast itself will be more than enough to rock Superman. A far lesser scale hand blast from Marvel can instantly make Captain Marvel go binary: https://i.imgur.com/rhOZUG4.jpg
(It knocked over Thanos too)
And it’s not that easy for Carol Manvers to go binary, here she absorbs a thermo nuclear warhead (kind of like the one that knocked out Superman), and stays in her normal form. She was amped, but she didn’t ascend: https://imgur.com/M6SLuKH https://imgur.com/bk70qUA https://imgur.com/mfSWdBm
yet Marvel can easily produce the energy to ascend her.
Or the energy necessary to help knock Galactus into his metamorphosis chamber: https://imgur.com/PfN7D4W
The FIGHT SO FAR
We start and I am well protected through my versatile shielding, you appear and discover that getting through to me will be no easy task. We engage and you are hit with more force than Byrne would ever allow you to be hit with. You wear down, and get hit more and more, devastatingly so, until even Superman’s spirit crumbles. Or you are contained in the same force field that held back God. Either way, you’re not winning this match.
The cherry on top
Should I feel the need to, I can also steal your solar radiation: https://imgur.com/JCxoZvx
Seeing as how Marvel can see down to the quark level and I have basic knowledge of your abilities, I am a walking energy sapping machine.
You were right, I was ready to rumble.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 16th, 2018 at 01:52 AM
Dear judges, pay attention, because he is gaslighting you.
Common tactics are using big words:
"Who did he contain you might ask? God. With a capital G."
"you are contained in the same force field that held back God."
Then backing down:
"Was he at full power? Obviously not"
Using big statements:
"Blue Marvel is top tier, realistically stronger and more formidable than your standard hero Sentry."
Then backing down:
"Before it gets said, I’m aware that there was weakness exploitation in play for anti-man, but that won’t matter much."
etc.
It's like a news article that goes on a rant, then at the bottom of the page it has "Note: This may not be real".
- Speed -
(please log in to view the image)
I won't even make fun of him, because I know he has nothing so he has to reach.
a). Travel speed - Blue Marvel flying in a straight line to the moon [and the scan says minutes, not moments]
b). Travel speed again - Blue Marvel flying in a straight line towards Nova [Luke Cage,hmm..]
c). Blue Marvel using a machine that amps his perception/consciousness, because he wanted to have Spectrum's Cosmic Awareness and see the Universe differently [thus the different images you see him receiving]. "Huh? Equipment that amps?" you might say. Yes. Damborg has a tendency to 'omit' facts: https://imgur.com/a/5LrJbAN
Machine that grants him Cosmic Awareness =/= ability to percieve and move in nanoseconds.
Myeah. I see he's also reached a point where he uses the false equivalence logical fallacy. This is also known as the "Hulk has superspeed fallacy", where he fights super-fast chars, so that means that he is super fast. Case and point: "Brasheer has a flawless record against the powerset that Superman brings to the table [..] super speed[..] Hyperion, King Hyperion, Sentry".
(please log in to view the image)
Since I'm here..
Lightning moves in slow-motion compared to Superman's perceptions/movement. https://imgur.com/a/NRnpTQN
- Comparison -
Hoooooly smokes, there's a lot of context to add here.
Anti-Man was in a non-stop gauntlet of people hitting him with his weakness, syncinc with him, trying to disperse him,attacking him physically/energy etc.
To act like that wasn't a team effort that wore down Anti-Man is rather absurd.
Furthermore the "omni-blast" he hopes for? That's syncing and dispersing Anti-Man's implosion. He explains it in the same issue the scan is from. https://imgur.com/a/7LeJcON
Meanwhile, see Superman: The Weird, to see somebody matching a team buster.
2). King Hyperion
He beat Blue Marvel, and then he walked away: https://imgur.com/a/h9Pxhm3
BM then sucker-shut him with lightning [you can actually see King Hyperion's slurred speech afterwards] and took him down: https://imgur.com/a/KpIeaZq
KH is godawful. He broke his hand on depowered Juggernaut and had his eye-beams matched by Moonstone: https://imgur.com/a/tE0y2zN
This garbage bin Hyperion literally broke BM's shield in a single punch [see the 1st scan] and KO'd him. Damborg used this as a feat for his shield!
3. Damborg: "Sentry (trying to take him out")
Meanwhile, in the facts world, we see Sentry holding back and stop the pounding to talk Blue Marvel into not getting up - who is on his knees on the ground after being on the losing end of the slugfest. https://imgur.com/yA50vF6
...and after he gets flash KOd in orbit, Sentry comes back and wins.
Don't get me wrong, this is a good feat. But Fabio-Sentry is rather unimpressive, and most of the time a joke. Hercules treated him as a joke: https://imgur.com/a/O4D8jtN
4). Damborg: "God. With a capital G." - "you are contained in the same force field that held back God. "
I'm wondering how he posted that with a straight face.
Is this the WWE, where we're just hyping empty stuff?
(please log in to view the image)
This 'God' is actually Shaper Of the Worlds, after he had gave up his power, and is now living as a ghost. He is called the Living Void...because he's a literal nothing. And the moment it was trying to get out, Blue Marvel needed Spectrum to amp him and blood was running out of his nose.
This is specifically stated in the same scan he posted, lol:
"I gave up my substance - my power - myself - to remake a single Universe. [..] And I died." https://imgur.com/a/1h011a4
Black Panther's energy daggers set to Carol's frequency actually dispersed this "GOD! WITH A CAPITAL G! YAHWEH INCARNATE!" just before Blue Marvel put an energy buble around him as he was reforming..which takes considerable concentration and time in the first place. https://imgur.com/a/vgFyBMN
Look at Superman here, restraining SWAMP THING, THE GOD OF NATURE by looking at it! https://imgur.com/a/uOYhf0m
Superman rubs his hands to create a field which removes this omnipotent, omniscient creature!!!! https://imgur.com/a/GZwxpAm
Blue Marvel spends 2 pages standing still, focused [and also with Spectrum helping] right next to static patients to slowly draw out minuscule generic space radiation they accumulated from space exposure: https://imgur.com/a/s3lexl2
This means, according to Damborg, that he can do this mid-fight to Superman, who has 35-years of raw bio-converted solar energy at a cellular level: https://imgur.com/a/wABa0yO
That guy creaming himself is Eradicator, by the way.
Twisting my own words? That's new. Damborg left this part out:
"Superman has surpassed the original limitations imposed upon him by Byrne even during that period as things advanced"
Whatever limitations initially were wanted, they didn't hold:
Okay, so nothing too unexpected here…
Other than some unhealthy obfuscation.
Let’s talk about what’s wrong with your point of view my friend. Some healthy twisting and lowballing
So I’m reading over your post and finding certain things that simply aren’t adding up. There’s more than I have the time to address but being my rebuttal post its important to do the most important ones at least:
1. Superman may have upgrades, but other characters don’t. Therefore, wowza what feats from Byrne era Superman to go against modern Orion!
First off, no.
Second off, that’s not true. Superman’s upgrades may have been spelled out for us the reader, this is true, but in order to keep up with Superman, every single character he faces has been subtly boosted from the Byrne era as well. It was natural comic progression, characters followed Superman closely behind. That “edge” that he should have had, was never, even once shown as a factor against other heroes. Should it have been? Well yeah, but it wasn’t, in the spirit of fairness I assume.
Here’s Byrne era Superman vs Orion: https://imgur.com/GhIF42Z https://imgur.com/Oq1qpaU https://imgur.com/mzgOV5M https://imgur.com/NCac1dA https://imgur.com/WHhedL4
and here’s double amped Superman vs Orion https://imgur.com/KBNNncK https://imgur.com/q1FLXT4 https://imgur.com/q39OIm0 https://imgur.com/xgGoiqn https://imgur.com/RZ4uGx6
Pretty even, eh? Dang, Orion must have been taking it easy on bloodlusted Superman if Superman in Byrne era…that’s because the amp didn’t carry through in the way you’re talking about.
There’s literally an example like this for every hero he’s fought, but I hope my point is taken now.
2. Sentry is weakened, Anti-Man is weakened, everyone is weakened. Huzzah !
So in this area, I was a little surprised that Philo was going for Blue Marvel using weakness exploitation on Sentry, simply because that was never a well established weakness which unless otherwise mentioned, isn’t necessarily in place. Kind of like how a lot of writers vary on their treatment of kryptonite for Superman:
Thank you for providing that for me, you shouldn’t have. So he knocked out Sentry and the writer confirms that the anti-matter weakness was not his intention to be in play.
Now let’s talk anti-man.
The only time that there was any weakness exploitation in play, whatsoever, was during the “synching” effects that you pointed out, and I had already mentioned.
Other than that, it’s might vs might. And Anti-Man and Blue Marvel are both comparable in power, that much is true, it’s not unexpected for Blue Marvel to lose a round.
Solo’d. And the fight was fought at super speed in many parts of it, for the record.
But why is this important? Because you tried to brush aside feats as if there was no merit to them. Under the guise of weakness exploitation, that anti-man has Blue Marvel as like walking kryptonite or something Which the author then confirms, is not part of the equation in THE COMIC ITSELF:
“He has to have a weakness !” “Reed its not having any effect!”
Would you look at that…
So I think its fair and safe to assume, that if there is no synching involved, its not weakness exploitation. And get this, its not even the kind of weakness exploitation that Philo is talking about :
(please log in to view the image)
Even with the synching of energies, the power of my Omni blast could raze the planet, in the same scan that Philo posted. We’ll talk more about that later.
Where the Sentry confirms he’s getting pushed to his limits, and STILL gets KO’d, in a comic with no confirmed weakness exploitation. That type of hit, would put Byrne Superman into a coma.
How can you, with any sense of shame, claim that Sentry dive bomb cheap shot Blue Marvel, who had just been attacked by arguable the strongest super human team on the planet, including a serious sentry himself, resisted the KO for longer than he should have, is any form of win lol? If anything, it’s another feat for Blue Marvel
And since we’re on that note, I am not talking about Yahweh lol. But the creature that Blue Marvel trapped, is still universal. I mentioned it was weakened, because it was, but describing itself as the “Maker” or God, puts him solidly in the cosmic hierarchy.
3. Blue Marvel has no speed or reaction feats, because travel speed
(please log in to view the image)
Okay, this is always something that has bothered me, and its being brought up AGAIN. Travel speed = reaction speed.
Why? Because logic. Unless you or anyone else thinks that Blue Marvel is flying at a pace that keeps up with Kid Nova of all people, just blinded, screaming and crying from the disorientation of not being able to perceive his surrounds at this speed, then we must assume he’s able to steer, turn, and react while traveling at super high end speeds.
It’s not an attempt to lie to any of you, I told you that the machine allows him to see all these things at once, but, and this is the important part
IT’S UP TO BLUE MARVEL’S MIND TO PROCESS IT
Imagine a telescope, that let you see, everything in the universe at once. We would be immediately overwhelmed. Yet Blue Marvel stared at it in the face with awe, able to keep up with the images. The machine didn’t amp his mental strength, it just gave him the means to do it.
So again, I reiterate, Blue Marvel will not be taken out so easy. It’s a feat on the level of this nonsense (which I was waiting for Philo to post):
Which while impressive, is probably the highest feat Superman has in his entire history, even compared to modern adaptations. Therefore, it cannot be taken as the standard easily achieved movement speed that Phil wants to believe. Superman doesn’t have to wait mentally decades every time this happens to him:
This makes a good transition point for me next topic.
The danger of repping Superman
So you drafted Superman, and with that comes a plethora of feats. I mentioned this in my first post, that I knew what was coming, a lot of high end feats from high end instances of Byrne era Superman. Here’s the issue, an issue that repping Blue Marvel does not apply to me. You get averaged out by a plethora of anti-feats.
Don’t get me wrong, I know this a battlezone, it is however not a screwattack Death Battle where Superman gets every good feat in his history and disregards the rest.
For every feat you posted, there is an equally shitty feat. That is the nature of Superman, especially in this era. Blue Marvel, is only high end. It’s his baseline, as a team buster and a notch above the rest.
So for every feat you post like Superman surviving some huge explosion, there is a feat like this: https://imgur.com/4OV34bG https://imgur.com/ekdRaJm
To put it into question. Why do you think Superman still has trouble clearing the high herald tier? Because of too many showings putting him down.
The Fight so far
So before I was rudely interrupted, as I said, Superman went for a super speed approach to start the fight off, only to find that I am shielded, very thoroughly, a very tough customer, faster than he thought, and hitting hard enough to hospitalize literally the highest of end heroes in Marvel.
For every hit you land on my shielded body: https://imgur.com/sINXpwU
You’ll receive a team buster buster to the jaw.
Between my shields, my blasts, and my impeccable record against Supermen-esque characters, I feel fairly confident, that you’re in for the fight of your life….and sadly…you can’t go Doomsday killer on me
MISC[/B
Also as a little side note, lol at that overhype of Mon-El
Drax isn’t far behind by that logic I suppose. https://imgur.com/Y5rGR65
Blue Marvel was not himself in the first bout with King Hyperion, and it’s not a cheap shot if you literally alert the opponent before hitting him: https://i.imgur.com/nRWP8Nx.jpg https://i.imgur.com/dKIcP8q.jpg
Your move Philo.
[b](please log in to view the image)
Final Post Part 1
Okay, let’s bring this baby home.
This is the final post, so I want to stress a few things I missed in the rebuttal post real quick that I should have addressed but ran out of space for After which I’ll do a quick summary and we’ll call it good.
1. Some serious disregard for Blue Marvel’s energy manipulation.
I brought up the point that Marvel has the ability to drain solar energy should he wish to, and Philo responded with a scan of Superman forcefully reabsorbing solar energy from an opponent right next to him.
First off, there will no such opponent here, and Blue Marvel’s energy manipulation isn’t limited to stealing the radiation of the unconscious.
So it’s hardly unrealistic to believe my powers can deeply affect Superman. Spectrum isn’t even a physical bone and tissue being, yet she can be manipulated. Not only that, Blue Marvel actually matched the changing wavelengths of Spectrum, if I wanted to I could shift that to any form of light I want, including red sun radiation. But hey, I’m sure it wouldn’t work…right?
2. Blue Marvel’s energy projection
Well hello there, that’s a fine argument you’re making. But first off, the Hercules scene isn’t canon. Second off, this is still Galactus. He’s still Skyfather +++ and any amount of energy that allowed Blue Marvel to participate in knocking him back is quite the impressive feat.
Next, understand that just because Thanos’ weapons were also able to make Carol go binary that does not mean that Blue Marvel doesn’t possess some serious fire power to instantly allow her to ascend. It’s Thanos, it’s meant to be impressive. The exploding ship, I’ll give you that, dumb writing.
3. Blue Marvel’s record against Superman-like characters
Blue Marvel has had 3 separate fights against characters essentially matching Superman’s powerset, and came out on top. Yet these scenes were easily brushed aside without much regard for their integrity. Does that make sense to any of you? Good, it’s not just me then. The fact remains that Blue Marvel has a history of being able to contend with and beat characters of a similar powerset to Superman, let alone Byrne era Superman who is arguably on a lesser level to current hyperion and sentry. There is absolutely no reason for the most relevant examples out there, literally characters who are nearly exact duplicates of Superman, who use their powers to their fullest and still lose, be disregarded. And as a side note King Hyperion is not garbage as Phil likes to claim, there’s a reason he’s slaughtered countless Earth’s full of Thor’s and Hulk’s: https://imgur.com/8vRF4FU https://imgur.com/AVRzm14
And claims of his fight with juggernaut are highly exaggerated, he may have broken his hand by he also kicked out the unstoppable force of nature’s knee: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/93/d...e4c14b309cf.jpg
And ripped his helmet off with heat vision.
Which Blue Marvel at his lowest level of confidence blocked.
And then got up and proceeded to kick the crap out of him, mano a mano, speed for speed.
It’s very impressive any way you want to look at it.
Those were just a few things that I wanted to continue to clear up, next we need to put a subject to rest. Speed.
I want everyone to notice a certain trend with Phil’s scans. Superman may have some pretty hefty speed feats, but they never come into play when he’s fighting. Outpunching lobo? That’s great and all but…it’s lobo. It’s not flash or anything of that nature.
Phil claims that Blue Marvel would be a statue to Superman. And I’ve spent the debate posting scans of why that simiply cannot be true. There simply aren’t enough examples prove Superman is comfortably able to perform those kinds of tactics. There’s always a counter showing.
To suggest that Superman has that sort of perception is to disregard every fight where he has multiple options to get out of the way, and takes a hit. At first one tends to think, well it’s probably because he’s holding back. But there are situations when he’s genuinely in danger and still gets tagged, it’s because Superman doesn’t walk around with that level of perception. That can be the only conclusion, he’s just as vulnerable as most super speed bricks are, and he’s got his whole history against him vs that one feat posted by Philo lol.
Just more random instances of attacks he should have been able to dodge: https://imgur.com/5wtsr7T https://imgur.com/tn9vqYq
Looking right at Etrigan. https://imgur.com/senrOGj https://imgur.com/Jqmi4RI
Literally on the ground next to a child, scrambling to react from his opponent with no notable super speed https://i.imgur.com/T3CwCZT.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5T6u3ZW.jpg
Hit mid blitz. There is absolutely no reason a guy with Blue Marvel’s record cannot do the same. None at all.
Are we to assume that Superman waits for months at a time to feel the impact of these blows? Or is it more fair to assume that Superman has good reaction time, but is very much vulnerable to attacks at this stage in his career? I will let you all decide. -tips fedora-
And for added emphasis, it’s important to revisit the idea that Blue Marvel does not have impressive levels of Super speed: https://imgur.com/eo6AIyf https://imgur.com/4ZXHmuS https://imgur.com/2kDWgnV https://imgur.com/OtYID08
From New York to Greece and back in minutes, while considering that he also had to defeat Ultimo before returning and safeguarding the citizens he damaged.
But this just travel speed right? Wrong, he’s operating at an incredibly fast level, he has to be or he wouldn’t even be able to react to where he’s going. It’s just common sense guys.
Once Again, the Dangers of Repping Superman
A main point I’ve been trying to push and make clear is the fact that Superman’s many appearances severely hamper him, because it casts doubt on just what level he’s at. For every explosion he no sells, he has a genetically modified monkey hurting him to counter balance it: https://imgur.com/QdGxJYi https://imgur.com/zoGF1Oq
He even got blitzed in the second scan for goodness sake.
I want this to be abundantly clear THIS ISN’T ME TRYING TO LOWBALL, IT SIMPLY COMES WITH THE TERRITORY WHEN YOU HAVE SO MANY APPEARANCES
It’s not fair to only give him the highs without consideration of the lower showings
Blue Marvel doesn’t have that problem, as a consistently high end character with little no less impressive showings.
At the same time that Superman can get knocked out by a 40 megaton bomb, Blue Marvel tanked a 50 megaton hydrogen bomb (on the lower end for hydrogen bombs, but hey) https://imgur.com/PKH0E43
Note also he easily moves an asteroid the size of Arkansas, which shows the kind of strength level he operates on as a bare minimum.
This would be a good time to post some counter feats for Blue Marvel, but there are none. It’s the benefit of repping a character with 1.5 showings, his average is incredibly high.
Blue Marvel even with his few showings has the high showings to go toe to toe with Superman’s extra level: https://imgur.com/tk18gIP https://imgur.com/I1OKGO8 (please log in to view the image)
Even a fraction of Shuma Gorath’s power is insane, and Blue Marvel one shot it. This is a guy packing some serious power, makes a little more sense how he one shot Sentry eh? The Fight Comes to a Close
To reiterate how the fight has gone so far, it hasn’t changed a whole lot.
I am of course shielded with my aura as I was when I sent super amped anti-man flying: (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
Or also here: http://oi62.tinypic.com/ibjc48.jpg
And he getting stronger by the minute, while the depowering effects of the heroes were have no effect AS CAN BE READ IN THE SCAN ITSELF still hard to believe Philo missed that. Simple mistake no doubt…
I also have extra shielding strong enough contain the weakened maker, and I let loose the most powerful Omni-Blast I am capable of: (please log in to view the image)
With the power to raze the planet, as confirmed by Reed Richard himself: https://i.imgur.com/HmCeMDS.jpg
Please don’t disregard just the kind of level that Blue Marvel was operating at.
IF superman is okay after that, he’s been taken out by less, especially when not ready for it, he finds that Blue Marvel is not that slow, (please log in to view the image)
Just like Sentry who tried to blitz him figured out.
He’ll see that even without shielding Blue Marvel is made of tougher stuff than he’s used to: https://i.imgur.com/cgnJDRv.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Dy8zvEq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/qCwI3Vh.jpg
He’ll his heat vision is not penetrating my shielding, remember that his heat vision used to literally heat up the stuff he looked at it, it wasn’t even a full beam, and that he’s getting his again, and again and again. By both molecule damaging attacks and punches capable of putting down the toughest Marvel has to offer, Hulk, Sentry, Hyperion, you name it. (please log in to view the image)
As has been shown, by Byrne Superman’s entire career.
AND THEN AT THE END OF IT ALL,
THIS IS FOR BRAN!!! (please log in to view the image)
One shot.
And I will win
Thank you Phil, thank you judges and everyone who read along, I hope you had fun like I did. Win or lose, it’s always nice battling you Phil, hopefully we can do a trilogy in the future!
Also I see I still have a few characters so here’s one more:
Sends literally the most powerful version of Maestro Hulk ever flying: (please log in to view the image)
That is all lol
But first..
Imagine posting these 2:
*Flying in a literal straight line up in the atmosphere
[and hyping it to hell, by taking Nova's highest top-speed space flying, when in Earth's atmosphere he is nowhere near that fast:http://i.imgur.com/o2anHmZ.jpg]
*Flying to the moon in minutes [lol!]
....and saying "Travel speed = reaction speed".
Then he tries again to steer towards "he fought characters with superspeed, so he has superspeed" by showing Sentry tackling him, start to punch and his punches, uh, being blocked.
This is legitimately what carver argues for Hulk. WWH vs Sentry, the exact same thing - only Hulk actually hit him in flight.
It's like we just started reading comics.
Cosmic awareness.
Damborg is trying to conflate cosmic awareness with superspeed - when it's anything but. These are two separate powers.
Cosmic Awareness is akin to telepathically communincating with the Universe: https://imgur.com/a/mLuo5NI
"I am with with the Universe" http://i.imgur.com/tSJB1V0.jpg
It's cheat codes for knowledge: https://imgur.com/a/nVRFkO2
In his own words, what the machine that amped him did:: https://imgur.com/a/5LrJbAN
"PSIONIC RESONATOR to EXPAND my CONSCIOUSNESS"
In Blue Marvel's case, he used it have an overview of everything and see the fact that Eternity is in shackles screaming from the First Firament [think Pre-Eternity Eternity] https://imgur.com/a/y6CT4Xx
That's...it. Cosmic Awareness allowed him to literally "see the bigger picture".
---
Now..
Judges, I assume you've seen/been in some fights. Vizualize a fight where one of the fighters sees and moves just 20 times faster than the other.
Here's how a high speed punch that takes less than a second in normal time looks at 0.05x:
This is how you see your opponent moving, while you are in normal time.
You could breakdance around Tyson in his prime.
80 times faster, and you could go to the bathroom and come back and he barely moves. (put on 0.25x to see)
Make it 1,000 times faster, and the opponent is frozen in time and doesn't even move.
Superman is on such an absurd level of speed, that his "video" is 0.000000001x [1,000,000,000 times faster]. That is the speed where he sees even light in slow motion. I was going for overkill here, but it's not even needed. Superman could see the world in microseconds (1,000,000 times faster) and he'd still percieve Blue Marvel as a statue.
Not that it's anything special, but I always like this scene from that same college period where he takes on a whole army as an invisible force https://imgur.com/a/MwGo1hQ
Just in case it needs to be said about Superman's flight speed - he travels light-years in moments (he was out of oxygen) to reach a solar-system at "speed that even gods would envy" in his first day in space: https://imgur.com/a/ZDexPsL
Even in what could be considered a lower showing of speed - a marathon race with Flash around the Earth: https://imgur.com/a/luIFCB7
1.Superman is equal to a Flash that throws "a few hundred thousand punches" in moments [page 15]
2.They're running at several times the speed of sound, and accelerate further while exhausted crossing half the entire Atlantic in seconds [page 20-21]. That's hundreds of times the speed of sound.
3.Also notice that they're zig-zagging, and not going in a straight line [Siberia, Egypt, Spain etc.] with obstacles, Mxy trying to rig the game [magical wall hitting Superman, animating etc. ]
This fight is not even a matter of believing or not that Blue Marvel has superspeed. Even if you think has some measure of it [with no feats at all], there's degrees to it. You can adjust either ends of the spectrum, but the difference is so large, that it doesn't end with anything other than him being a statue.
Blue Marvel will never connect. None of his attacks will even start.
To put it short, this is how Superman sees the fight:
(please log in to view the image)
With a totally different outcome
- Comparison -
The boy who cried wolf
Judges, you've seen him make numerous statements throughout this thread that don't hold up under scrutiny.
Don't hold the empty boasting as facts.
He hasn't read the issues, made obvious by the contextless scans he uses, and he's just repeating what DS has said here: https://tinyurl.com/yckodrha
He doesn't have the showings to surpass, so he uses an imaginary average that he hopes you buy, due to preconcieved notion of Byrne-era Superman.
Byrne Supes has has one of the best records in fights of any character in any era.
I lol'd at "every single character he faces has been subtly boosted from the Byrne era as well." a.k.a. "believe my bullshit"
Do we have Byrne-era:
Captain Marvel?
Martian Manhunter?
Lobo?
Etrigan?
Maxima?
etc.
We don't. Because they're the same person, at the same powerlevel. Do they have more feats? Yes. But they have had NO CANON UPGRADE.
Damborg continues to misleaed about Anti-Man. The fight he posted? Notice in the first scan that the date is 1962? That's because the Anti-Man he beat is the original, unamped one. He dissipated in his fight with the Avengers because his molecular structure is unstable, and he was turning into a wormhole between the Negative Zone and normal one [thus him getting more and more powerful], not because he was weak: https://imgur.com/a/PA1mJKq
He's talking about different versions of Anti-Man, and conflating them into one. It couldn't have been made more clear that in current day he was superior, and they needed weakness exploatation: https://imgur.com/a/fSMZe7z
They wore him down using BM's plan, then Adam took him in the atmosphere and synced (for the 2nd time).
Damborg has two shield scans:
a). One is broken by King Hyperion in a single punch + HV combo.
b). The other, which takes considerable more time to make [which he obviously won't have here] was against a depowered ghost/echo and he needed an amp THE MOMENT he started fighting back.
"But the creature that Blue Marvel trapped, is still universal."
I legitimately lol'd at him still going on about this. Judges, the scans have been posted. All this explicitly ghost/echo did in the entire story is get hurt by Black Panther's daggers and teleport once.
Superman's record:
- matched the Weird [high-end team buster]
- beaten Mon-El [high-end Daxamite]
- beaten Lobo repeatedly who has easily has the most absurd feats of strength and durability in comics during this same period he is fighting Superman
- KOd Maxima with a backhand
- KOd Etrigan [for reference: https://imgur.com/a/H1nM1pg]
- pulverized Bizarro
- beaten Captain Marvel: https://imgur.com/a/hwkv8RV
- KOs Mongul while weakened:: https://imgur.com/a/RoyuvLb
- treated the entire JLI team as fodder [Bloodwynd [amped Martian Manhunter], Yellow Lantern Guy etc.]: https://imgur.com/a/qlaRViE
- handled teams of heroes [Mon-El, Green Lantern etc.] gang-pilling him without being hurt: https://imgur.com/a/L5uKwll
Compare this to Blue Marvel getting damaged by Iron Man and Ares: https://imgur.com/a/VxY3uKW
Superman that is trying to help and not fight getting downed by Barda's rod?. When he fights, Superman plows through Kalibak's rod and shatters it: https://imgur.com/a/Rdc41wz
[for reference: https://imgur.com/a/xHPi8Qu]
Just in case it's brought [you never know!], Superman's heat vision can easily destroys anti-energy: https://imgur.com/a/uIC08in
Orion! Surprisingly, there's CONTEXT!
Superman's powers don't function without his full active brain. So when he had amnesia in that story, he went from not being able to lift a rock, to once being told that he is the son of Darkseid, gaining super-strength and flight and engaging Orion, but he was never at his Superman powerlevel [this is why you don't see him use heat vision and the like]. He didn't even know his powers. He was brainwashed into thinking he is the "Son of Darkseid". Since it's at hand, Superman vs Darkseid [retconned as Desaad in disguise), but still worth some scans: https://imgur.com/a/a4lStHB
Blue Marvel's record:
- lost the 1st round to King Hyperion [dp Juggernaut level], then won the second
- losing to Sentry [whose powers were not 100%] until he stopped, flash KOd him into the atmosphere, then Sentry came back and won
- won against ultimate Hulk in oe uppercut
- Had an inconclusive fight with main Hyperion
- Has a single panel where we see him and Pagan fight that we have zero context on.
- Was getting outmanuvered by Miss America: https://imgur.com/a/GQGim72
The same Miss America who was getting outmanuvered by Ultimate Captain America: https://imgur.com/a/EmYZeQJ
- Having problems with random Chitauri that Carol was handling: https://imgur.com/a/Vkd562m
Hm.
----
Thanks for the match, Anny and thanks to the judges for the effort
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."