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WW2 What if
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Koenig
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WW2 What if

Here's an interesting one, what if the Allies had invaded Normandy in 1943?

Without the invasion of Italy.


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Last edited by Koenig on May 6th, 2006 at 10:44 PM

Old Post May 6th, 2006 10:42 PM
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Janus Marius
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They would likely have gotten pushed out, and then Soviet Russia would have dominated Europe without an opposing Allied presence.

Old Post May 6th, 2006 10:49 PM
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Koenig
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As we know most of the German army was in Russia and in June 1943 they were involved in the Battle of Kursk. In Normandy the defences, were in the very early stages of being built, this would had made the situation easier for the Allies to invade.


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Old Post May 6th, 2006 10:55 PM
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Janus Marius
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Koenig
As we know most of the German army was in Russia and in June 1943 they were involved in the Battle of Kursk. In Normandy the defences, were in the very early stages of being built, this would had made the situation easier for the Allies to invade.


Two million Germans went into Operation Barbarossa. The combined might of the German military was closer to 10-12 million total at this point. That's hardly "most".

Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:05 PM
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Koenig
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Granted a lot of them were kicking their heels in occupied countries but the best of the troops were on the eastern front being bled white by Hitler's crack pot orders.


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Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:08 PM
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Koenig
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Two million Germans went into Operation Barbarossa. The combined might of the German military was closer to 10-12 million total at this point. That's hardly "most".


Correction 3.2 million German troops at the start of Barbarossa.


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Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:16 PM
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Janus Marius
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No, it's actually 2.6. The Russian forces numbered 3.6 million. Check your sources.

Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:19 PM
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Koenig
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Just checked my books and some websites they all say 3 million.


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Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:29 PM
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Janus Marius
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Link me.

Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:31 PM
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Janus Marius
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In Wehrmacht Service*, 1943: 11,280,000+

Source: http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html

Aside from the three million Germans, the attacking force also included 250,000 Italian, 300,000 Romanian and several hundred thousand troops from other allied Axis nations. Arrayed against them were 4.5 million Red Army troops, including 2.3 million in the western border regions at the time of the invasion.

Source: Reference.com

So looks like you're right. Odd. Those figures are higher than that in my text book and notes.

Still, that's not even a fourth of the German forces. And they drummed up a few million more recruits in the next year or so.

Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:43 PM
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Koenig
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Last edited by Koenig on May 7th, 2006 at 12:07 AM

Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:52 PM
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Koenig
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Janus Marius
In Wehrmacht Service*, 1943: 11,280,000+

Source: http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html

Aside from the three million Germans, the attacking force also included 250,000 Italian, 300,000 Romanian and several hundred thousand troops from other allied Axis nations. Arrayed against them were 4.5 million Red Army troops, including 2.3 million in the western border regions at the time of the invasion.

Source: Reference.com

So looks like you're right. Odd. Those figures are higher than that in my text book and notes.

Still, that's not even a fourth of the German forces. And they drummed up a few million more recruits in the next year or so.



Hey you got me panicking for a moment.


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Old Post May 6th, 2006 11:56 PM
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Janus Marius
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lol... I had faulty info. Not sure where I got it from, aside from a textbook estimate, which is off. Fairly recent textbook too, which is odd.

Old Post May 7th, 2006 12:14 AM
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Koenig
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Are that sucks write a letter to the author, and ask why the text book is wrong.


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Old Post May 7th, 2006 12:20 AM
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Janus Marius
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I doubt they expected to be quoted for 100% accuracy.

Old Post May 7th, 2006 12:22 AM
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Koenig
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Good point.

I shall let this question ride out for a week see what input I get on this one. Having a bit of a think about this what if, well it’s time to return to the real world how boring.


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Last edited by Koenig on May 7th, 2006 at 12:31 AM

Old Post May 7th, 2006 12:24 AM
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Final Blaxican
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What if Captain America had never been created? Would we still have won the war?


Nah Im going to post something serious tomarrow about this. I've actually learned sme stuff last week about WWII through various intresting online atricles.


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Old Post May 7th, 2006 06:40 AM
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Janus Marius
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Janus Marius
They would likely have gotten pushed out, and then Soviet Russia would have dominated Europe without an opposing Allied presence.


I still rather hold to this. If the Allies hadn't taken Italy, they would have had to focus the bulk of their forces at the beachhead. Since the Germans wouldn't be having a bulk o their army in the Alps, they could redirect forces to stop a shore invasion. Perhaps even get some armor on the beach. However, assuming that the allies did indeed even land, they would have been hindered more than they were in real history, and the Soviets would have swallowed up Germany at least.

Old Post May 7th, 2006 03:45 PM
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Koenig
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I found some interesting info on this, what do you folks think of it?

quote:
Operation Sledgehammer
During World War II, Operation Sledgehammer was an Allied contingency plan for a limited-objective cross-channel invasion of Europe in response to a German or Soviet collapse in 1942. It was to be used to reduce pressure on the Russians.
The main objective of the operation was to capture Cherbourg or Brest in northern France in order to establish a defensible foothold in mainland Europe, which would provide a staging area for a larger invasion force.
The United States argued for the operation, but the United Kingdom was against it. The Allies eventually agreed that they did not have enough landing craft at the time and abandoned the plan in favor of Operation Gymnast (later renamed Operation Torch), the invasion of Northern Africa. The costly raid on Dieppe later demonstrated the difficulty of capturing a major port in the face of determined enemy opposition, and the D-Day invasion of Normandy avoided ports altogether.


Operation Roundup
Military history records two operations called 'Operation Roundup:
1. The first was a 1942 plan for an invasion of northern France in the spring of 1943.
This plan, drawn up by then-Brigadier General Eisenhower reflected American enthusiasm for an early entry into Europe. Given the shortage of landing craft and other resources, this plan was unrealistic. Briefings concerning this plan brought Eisenhower’s organizational and diplomatic skills to the attention of senior civil and military leaders in the United States and Europe, launching his meteoric rise to Supreme Allied Commander, Europe. Although it was never executed, parts of it were incorporated into Operation Overlord. Operation Roundup included Operation Sledgehammer and the later variant Operation Roundhammer.


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Old Post May 7th, 2006 06:24 PM
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Janus Marius
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Interesting. So do you think an alternate land invasion in this case would be less effective than the real deal was?

Old Post May 7th, 2006 06:45 PM
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