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Russia's new stealth fighter, co-developed with India
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Omega Vision
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Russia's new stealth fighter, co-developed with India

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14564311

So does this change anything? Or is it just a poor man's F-22?


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:03 PM
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Mindset
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It will change things about as much as the F22 did, which is not at all.


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:08 PM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindset
It will change things about as much as the F22 did, which is not at all.

The F-22 did change things, if only slightly.

It made almost every other fighter on the planet obsolete.

But I mostly agree with you. Air superiority fighters are kind of passe. Strike fighters seem to be more important now.


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:15 PM
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Mindship
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Doesn't sound like that big a deal. We still win.

I always wonder what they don't tell us about what these planes can do. Eg, if the F-15 Eagle's top speed was given as Mach 2.7, what could it really do?


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:15 PM
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tsilamini
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I wouldn't be surprised if it had the same technological specs of the 22, eurofighter or the recent chinese fighter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20), which is to say, while some of these might beat others in various tech specs, they are interchangable in that they are "5th gen" fighters

I thought the Americans had unveiled plans for a fighter upgrade at the same time as they were rolling out the fighter/bomber F35, but apparently I am mistaken. From what I've seen, the F35 is technologically superior to all the previously mentioned craft, however, as it plays a bombing role more than a fighter role, would probably lose in 1v1 combat against these fighters.

all that being said, American air supremacy comes from a number of things, only one of which is technological superiority. For instance, even if Russia had better planes, they have far fewer carriers, and would thus be reliant on local airbases in term of engaging American air power.

Very cool though, and I agree with mindset, having state of the art jets is more just saying "ya, we roll with the big guys" more than any change in geopolitics. Russia isn't going to jump so far ahead of the Americans in military technology that it shifts any balance of power.


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:23 PM
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tsilamini
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
But I mostly agree with you. Air superiority fighters are kind of passe. Strike fighters seem to be more important now.


It depends

if we look at NATO, and the wars they get into, sure, something like the F35 is a far better investment than an upgrade to the F22, because ya, if all you want to do is bomb villages who have no air defenses, hell, you could use a B52.

However, in Canada, as global warming opens up northern shipping passages, we are going to start having international pressure regarding the Northwest Passage (that are clearly internal Canadian waters), where it might actually be meaningful for our military to have the "scramble fighters" response to nations trying to use it. Or even more generally, as the arctic becomes more traversable, our northern lands are going to see a large amount of competition from all the world powers. I personally think an "in-house" arctic-fighter would have been a much better investment for our army, than to buy a couple of the F35s, which is what we did otherwise. It certainly shows where our military priorities are, but with Russia flexing its Arctic military muscles (they have had some demonstrations over the past few years) and international pressure over the NWP, idk, I'd prefer we focus less on how effective we are at bombing brown people, and more on how well we can defend our own territories.


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:30 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
The F-22 did change things, if only slightly.

It made almost every other fighter on the planet obsolete.

But I mostly agree with you. Air superiority fighters are kind of passe. Strike fighters seem to be more important now.


Ah, but war is strange like that. The F-35 is the tech that's most directly important to winning but it can be taken down by air superiority fighters, so you can't send your F-35s out against a strong enemy unless you have some F-22s to protect them from enemy air superiority.

The same thing happened to modern naval powers. Carriers are (assumed to be) the destructive arm of the fleet but submarines will destroy them so you have to issue destroyers to protect them from the subs even though to destroyers are nearly useless for attacking the targets you're going after.

As its turned out (as inimalist pointed out) NATO isn't getting much use out of it's F-22s these days but they can't afford to not have them in the event that they tangle with someone who does.


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:46 PM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist
I wouldn't be surprised if it had the same technological specs of the 22, eurofighter or the recent chinese fighter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20), which is to say, while some of these might beat others in various tech specs, they are interchangable in that they are "5th gen" fighters

I thought the Americans had unveiled plans for a fighter upgrade at the same time as they were rolling out the fighter/bomber F35, but apparently I am mistaken. From what I've seen, the F35 is technologically superior to all the previously mentioned craft, however, as it plays a bombing role more than a fighter role, would probably lose in 1v1 combat against these fighters.

all that being said, American air supremacy comes from a number of things, only one of which is technological superiority. For instance, even if Russia had better planes, they have far fewer carriers, and would thus be reliant on local airbases in term of engaging American air power.

Very cool though, and I agree with mindset, having state of the art jets is more just saying "ya, we roll with the big guys" more than any change in geopolitics. Russia isn't going to jump so far ahead of the Americans in military technology that it shifts any balance of power.

I remember seeing a documentary that stated that Russian fighter pilots get about 1/10th the training of American pilots because Russia is too poor to afford that much jet fuel in peacetime.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist
It depends

if we look at NATO, and the wars they get into, sure, something like the F35 is a far better investment than an upgrade to the F22, because ya, if all you want to do is bomb villages who have no air defenses, hell, you could use a B52.

However, in Canada, as global warming opens up northern shipping passages, we are going to start having international pressure regarding the Northwest Passage (that are clearly internal Canadian waters), where it might actually be meaningful for our military to have the "scramble fighters" response to nations trying to use it. Or even more generally, as the arctic becomes more traversable, our northern lands are going to see a large amount of competition from all the world powers. I personally think an "in-house" arctic-fighter would have been a much better investment for our army, than to buy a couple of the F35s, which is what we did otherwise. It certainly shows where our military priorities are, but with Russia flexing its Arctic military muscles (they have had some demonstrations over the past few years) and international pressure over the NWP, idk, I'd prefer we focus less on how effective we are at bombing brown people, and more on how well we can defend our own territories.

Don't worry, if anything happens big brother America will protect its hat from the Ruskies.


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Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:48 PM
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tsilamini
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I remember seeing a documentary that stated that Russian fighter pilots get about 1/10th the training of American pilots because Russia is too poor to afford that much jet fuel in peacetime.


that wouldn't surprise me either

we get a really biased view here in Canada, because we always try to play down the talent of American soldiers ("we always beat them in war games" and the like), so I really can't comment on who would have better pilots, other than to say, Canada has the best!

[no, probably not]

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Don't worry, if anything happens big brother America will protect its hat from the Ruskies.


actually, this is one issue where we would probably be better served siding with the Russians over the Americans

America wants the NWP to be international water, so that they don't have to get clearance with us to use it, whereas Russia has similar claims in their north. We could easily form a bloc where we recognize the independence of eachother's claims to try and stop nations like America or China from claiming our internal waters for their own use.

that being said, I don't think its a full invasion we have to be worried about, just something that lets us assert national sovereignty.

EDIT: just as an anecdote, our arctic is larger than western europe, rugged terrain, sparsely populated and of such a brutal climate that I've seen military officials joke that Canada's response to any foreign army there would be a rescue operation. lolz... idk, i found it funny


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Last edited by tsilamini on Aug 17th, 2011 at 09:02 PM

Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 08:58 PM
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Mindset
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I'm going to invade Canada and take it over.

Who's with me?


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 09:08 PM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist
that wouldn't surprise me either

we get a really biased view here in Canada, because we always try to play down the talent of American soldiers ("we always beat them in war games" and the like), so I really can't comment on who would have better pilots, other than to say, Canada has the best!

[no, probably not]



actually, this is one issue where we would probably be better served siding with the Russians over the Americans

America wants the NWP to be international water, so that they don't have to get clearance with us to use it, whereas Russia has similar claims in their north. We could easily form a bloc where we recognize the independence of eachother's claims to try and stop nations like America or China from claiming our internal waters for their own use.

that being said, I don't think its a full invasion we have to be worried about, just something that lets us assert national sovereignty.

EDIT: just as an anecdote, our arctic is larger than western europe, rugged terrain, sparsely populated and of such a brutal climate that I've seen military officials joke that Canada's response to any foreign army there would be a rescue operation. lolz... idk, i found it funny

Well I can see America's claim what with Alaska and all, but China?

They're just ridiculous with their water claims.


__________________

“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 09:15 PM
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tsilamini
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Well I can see America's claim what with Alaska and all, but China?

They're just ridiculous with their water claims.


I'll have to look up the mandates, but it isn't that the NWP is part of American water, but rather, that it is an international shipping route that Canada should not have independent control over.

China would push for the international definition almost precisely because they have no similar claims, as it would give them access to the route without consulting Canada, and they wouldn't be losing any territory that is opening up due to climate change

Its a UN designation thing... in all fairness, I think there are reasons to suggest it should be international waters, but my feelings are that we should push back against that, **** the UN and all that.


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2011 09:23 PM
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Quark_666
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindset
I'm going to invade Canada and take it over.

Who's with me?
I'll let you handle the snipers. You got this man stick out tongue

Old Post Aug 18th, 2011 12:12 AM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist


Its a UN designation thing... in all fairness, I think there are reasons to suggest it should be international waters, but my feelings are that we should push back against that, **** the UN and all that.

Lol UN...Canada would finally find someone feeble enough to push around.


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“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Aug 18th, 2011 12:31 AM
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tsilamini
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lol UN...Canada would finally find someone feeble enough to push around.


http://www.canada.com/news/canada-i...5522/story.html

but ya, I lol'd for real smile


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Old Post Aug 18th, 2011 12:34 AM
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Omega Vision
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NATO...smh.

They can't even subdue Libya without direct American assistance.


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Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

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Old Post Aug 18th, 2011 12:42 AM
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tsilamini
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ya, but of those nations, we are among the most willing to violently occupy a poor nation thousands of kilometers from us


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Old Post Aug 18th, 2011 12:44 AM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist
ya, but of those nations, we are among the most willing to violently occupy a poor nation thousands of kilometers from us

Canada is the loyal girlfriend of America...England's little sister who's always ready to give America a hand...job...

France and Germany are the skanks that expect America to spend time with them.


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Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
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Old Post Aug 18th, 2011 01:03 AM
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What the **** are you talking about?


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Old Post Aug 18th, 2011 03:28 AM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What the **** are you talking about?

Everything.


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Old Post Aug 18th, 2011 03:43 AM
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