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Who should be allowed to vote?
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The Ellimist
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Who should be allowed to vote?

Discuss your constraints and prerequisites.


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 05:01 PM
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dadudemon
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This is a great thread...however, I do not expect much dialogue, debate, or discussion regarding it.


I've posted my ideas on this very topic multiple times: part of me thinks all citizens should get to vote and part of me thinks we need to inject extreme restrictions into the debate.



This guy writes an article about this however all his arguments are weak and easily picked apart:

https://medium.com/democracy-square...on-b3be397b209f


Fact is, the electorate is woefully ignorant on the issues and the candidates. Why do we keep electing ineffectual and actually corrupt Democrats and Republicans all the time? It's because the electorate is woefully ignorant.


What would happen if every person who voted had proved that they were aware of each major candidate's voting history and platforms? What if a voter had to prove that they had a functional knowledge of American Civics before being allowed to vote?


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 05:09 PM
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The Ellimist
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Honestly one of the better arguments for the free market is that it subtly filters competent people into positions of power. I mean, not perfectly by any means.


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 05:14 PM
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Lestov16
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Well it's kind of a Catch-22 situation. If you say everyone should be allowed to vote, you're creating a mob mentality, but it you say that only a few should be allowed to vote, you're creating an oligarchy. I agree with DDM that voters be tested to ensure the understand exactly who and what they're voting for, but honestly that is kind of on the onus of the voter, and I feel that our media (both liberal and conservative) misrepresent political agendas to the public to ensure their own wins, making an objective meritocratic vote even harder to obtain. That being stated, if our country's education system wasnt such shit, I'm sure there would be far more knowledgeable voters. I also feel that there are certain classes of criminals (mainly murderers and rapists) who should have their voting rights permanently revoked, but other more petty criminals who should be allowed to be rehabilitated and participate in our democracy.


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Last edited by Lestov16 on Jan 2nd, 2018 at 05:27 PM

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 05:25 PM
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lazybones
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It really depends on what you view the vote to be. Is it simply a mechanism for any adult with a stake in the system to have their say, or something that should be a closely guarded privilege of the educational elite? I tend to favour the former interpretation, as it would be very unhealthy to have a society to be solely governed by people, who although intelligent, may not have a grasp on certain particular issues that affect the disadvantaged in society. That said, there may be an argument for some basic civics test as a preresquite to vote, but I would much prefer to have a media and education system which actually did their job and educated people on these basics, rather than punishing the people who have been failed by these institutions.

Last edited by lazybones on Jan 2nd, 2018 at 07:40 PM

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 07:36 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I've posted my ideas on this very topic multiple times: part of me thinks all citizens should get to vote and part of me thinks we need to inject extreme restrictions into the debate.


The answer probably lies somewhere in between. I'm in favor of making sure people are actually informed.

I just don't know how extreme I'd make it. For example, sometimes I've had to vote and one of the things it had you voting for were judges, and sometimes there are a bunch of them. I never have any clue about any of the judges on the list. I guarantee you most people in this city don't know any of them either. Yet I don't think I'd make it so you need to take a test about all these judges to show you know about them.

Also when it comes to some kind of test for voting like I said I am in favor, but do you have any limits on how it is used? By this I mean, do you think this should just be required for presidential elections? Should it be required for other votes as well? Like mayoral elections for instance.


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 07:46 PM
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SquallX
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Like I said before, I follow Thomas Sowell view on this.

Yes, voting is a right to all free citizens, but it should also be a privilege to vote. For the majority of those that votes, have no idea on who their voting for, and their only voting for party, not policies.

If you were to walk outside and ask the average joe the policies of Thrump, most couldn’t tell you shit.

Another thing is the media. The majority of people get the news from the big news network, and the big news network knows this. The media knowing this willingly fails to report the whole truth to their viewers, so they dilute the truth to sever their purpose, and the people are none the wiser.

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 08:06 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lestov16
but honestly that is kind of on the onus of the voter, and I feel that our media (both liberal and conservative) misrepresent political agendas to the public to ensure their own wins, making an objective meritocratic vote even harder to obtain. That being stated, if our country's education system wasnt such shit, I'm sure there would be far more knowledgeable voters. I also feel that there are certain classes of criminals (mainly murderers and rapists) who should have their voting rights permanently revoked, but other more petty criminals who should be allowed to be rehabilitated and participate in our democracy.
Well, what does the media, education system and prison that is filled with non-violent "criminals" serving time for victimless crimes have in common? All are controlled/funded/regulated by the government we just established is shit. It seems like the government tends to make lots of things shit.

Now if people were able to choose which schools and media outlets thrive and die with their own buck, and if people weren't getting tossed in jail for non-crimes, and the government didn't have such a huge monopoly over all of these institutions... maybe we'd be able to raise more knowledgeable children. The problem isn't "what can we do to make voters smarter", it's "how do stop them from being mislead and lied to their entire lives."


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 08:33 PM
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Beniboybling
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Ah yes, those govt. run media organisations like CNN and Fox News. confused


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 08:48 PM
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RHaggis
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah yes, those govt. run media organisations like CNN and Fox News. confused


Key word - "regulated". There's a reason he put three varying words there. He wasn't saying they were all government run.


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 09:47 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah yes, those govt. run media organisations like CNN and Fox News. confused
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
do you ever say anything meaningful


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 11:12 PM
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lazybones
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Well, what does the media, education system and prison that is filled with non-violent "criminals" serving time for victimless crimes have in common? All are controlled/funded/regulated by the government we just established is shit. It seems like the government tends to make lots of things shit.

Now if people were able to choose which schools and media outlets thrive and die with their own buck, and if people weren't getting tossed in jail for non-crimes, and the government didn't have such a huge monopoly over all of these institutions... maybe we'd be able to raise more knowledgeable children. The problem isn't "what can we do to make voters smarter", it's "how do stop them from being mislead and lied to their entire lives."
Having more private influence or choice in the education system won't necessarily alleviate standards. Many of the countries that rank above the US in education tend to be social democratic European nations that are hardly free market paradises, and the Swedish attempt in the 90s to introduce more choice in education actually lead to a decrease in standards.

(please log in to view the image)

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...n_friedman.html


That said, there have been studies that suggest choice does have some notable positive effects, so there's that, but I think a focus on toughening up the curriculum and rigorous teacher training could be what's needed, rather than handing education over to the private sector which I imagine would only exacerbate inequality and which doesn't always boast the superb results that the proponents claim. It also wouldn't provide the uniform teaching in civics that is needed to create an evenly well informed citizenry.

In terms of the criminal justice and prison system, it absolutely needs reform. But instead of calling government to be torn down, why not just elect a government that will end the War on Drugs and pair this with a comprehensive network of mental health services. I believe such approaches have been attempted with success in countries like Portugal and Switzerland, so you can't say this isn't possible. No need to bay for the government's blood, now. Just make it better.

And although I agree the government is somewhat complicit in creating the shitshow that is the modern MSM, it is important to remember that these companies do have a sense of agency. They choose to put out these sensationalist news stories which are only designed to rake in ratings and profit. The antidote is an education that provides strong and uniform teaching in the fields of civics and critical thinking. Uniformity in the curricula can only be achieved through a government run apparatus as a private education system wouldn't always have an incentive to provide these things, as the essentials like English and Mathematics may override the want for civics education in some instances. Again, systemic reform of government is needed, rather than radical retrenchment or abolition.

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 11:28 PM
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Nephthys
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Honestly more and more I've been being convinced that democracy in general doesn't work and that most voters are uninformed, easily mislead idiots.


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 11:35 PM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RHaggis
Key word - "regulated". There's a reason he put three varying words there. He wasn't saying they were all government run.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Now if people were able to choose which schools and media outlets thrive and die with their own buck, and if people weren't getting tossed in jail for non-crimes, and the government didn't have such a huge monopoly over all of these institutions...
Right. I used the term loosely, 'Swords seems to be stating that the govt. has some massive control over the media that would be better off privately funded, kek.


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 11:47 PM
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Scribble
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Honestly more and more I've been being convinced that democracy in general doesn't work and that most voters are uninformed, easily mislead idiots.
What other options are there?


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 11:51 PM
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Nephthys
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Well I really liked the benevolent AI super-god ending of Deux Ex. (please log in to view the image)


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 12:08 AM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by lazybones
Having more private influence or choice in the education system won't necessarily alleviate standards. Many of the countries that rank above the US in education tend to be social democratic European nations that are hardly free market paradises,
Which countries specifically? Certain European countries which are famously cited for their great social programmes tend to have similar or more economic freedom than the US when all factors are accounted for, so I'd need to see specifics.
quote:
and the Swedish attempt in the 90s to introduce more choice in education actually lead to a decrease in standards.
I'm not really familiar enough with what happened there to comment.
quote:
That said, there have been studies that suggest choice does have some notable positive effects, so there's that, but I think a focus on toughening up the curriculum and rigorous teacher training could be what's needed, rather than handing education over to the private sector which I imagine would only exacerbate inequality and which doesn't always boast the superb results that the proponents claim. It also wouldn't provide the uniform teaching in civics that is needed to create an evenly well informed citizenry.
What do you mean toughen up the curriculum? I don't think the curriculum needs adjusting as much as it needs replaced. The idea that children that are all endowed with unique talents, working at different levels of ability and learn better in different ways should all follow a standardised curriculum, and then be assessed on that basis, is pretty primitive. My idea of education is to let people move at their own pace, however fast that is, in whatever format they choose. I'd go as far as to say that classroom teaching should begin to be phased out in favour of independent, self-pased online learning in the form of courses. I know that's a long way off, but my point is that this level of innovation wouldn't be achieved by public schooling.

I think if education had a more competitive element to it only the best teachers would get the work, much like only the best speakers/experts get a lot of traffic online. It's very tough to be a good teacher, which is why I don't think many people are cut out for the job. But anyway, I would need to gather my own stats to debate with you on whether classroom learning in the private sector outweighs the public.

What do you mean exacerbate inequality?
quote:
It also wouldn't provide the uniform teaching in civics that is needed to create an evenly well informed citizenry.
Why not? Aside from the fact that's kind of your parent's job when they create you, not the education day care centre.
quote:
In terms of the criminal justice and prison system, it absolutely needs reform. But instead of calling government to be torn down, why not just elect a government that will end the War on Drugs
They just need to stop throwing people in jail for stupid shit, which involves the government having less power.
quote:
and pair this with a comprehensive network of mental health services.
For prisoners? What mental health services would you provide to which type of prisoners, exactly?

quote:
And although I agree the government is somewhat complicit in creating the shitshow that is the modern MSM, it is important to remember that these companies do have a sense of agency. They choose to put out these sensationalist news stories which are only designed to rake in ratings and profit. The antidote is an education that provides strong and uniform teaching in the fields of civics and critical thinking. Uniformity in the curricula can only be achieved through a government run apparatus as a private education system wouldn't always have an incentive to provide these things, as the essentials like English and Mathematics may override the want for civics education in some instances. Again, systemic reform of government is needed, rather than radical retrenchment or abolition.
I don't believe you. You're claiming a profit driven education system would incentivise good teaching, but somehow government-backed education is going to be incentivised to teach people critical thinking... which would inevitably lead to a lessening in their own profits and influence. There's a reason things like basic personal finance isn't taught before you guys are sent off to college to rack up student for useless degrees, and it's not because the government has your best interests at heart.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 12:08 AM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right. I used the term loosely, 'Swords seems to be stating that the govt. has some massive control over the media that would be better off privately funded, kek.
You'll note I mentioned schools and prisons, which the government kind of has a monopoly on, but we'll just nitpick the individual institution of the three I mentioned, ignore that I included criteria like "regulated", and try to spin what I said into something entirely different. I'll say it again for the people in the back...
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
do you ever say anything meaningful


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 12:10 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon

Fact is, the electorate is woefully ignorant on the issues and the candidates. Why do we keep electing ineffectual and actually corrupt Democrats and Republicans all the time? It's because the electorate is woefully ignorant.

The "woefully ignorant" are more likely to vote against corrupt candidates than the rich who know the candidates will benefit them. Hence, restricting who can vote would help keep the corrupt in power.

The reasons why the corrupt are in power is

A. the people likely to oppose said politicians don't vote enough

B. corrupt politicians are allowed to enact policy restricting the votes of thousands in each state, thousands likely to not vote for them. Even the supreme court recognized the policy was partisan but decided it's ok for political purposes as "voting is a privilege not a right."

C. People don't have equal voting power. Our democracy treats certain people as superior to others. We want land to have equal power, rather than the people who reside in that land.

D. For whatever reason we don't make election day a holiday

E. Partisan gerrymandering keeps the corrupt in power even when opposed by a majority of a people.

F. Superpacs ensure money wins over popularity. Remember that video you posted?

But restricting the vote of who the government deems unworthy keeps the government in control rather than the people. And any country that does that has no business calling itself a republic.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 12:17 AM

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 12:14 AM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
You'll note I mentioned schools and prisons, which the government kind of has a monopoly on, but we'll just nitpick the individual institution of the three I mentioned, ignore that I included criteria like "regulated", and try to spin what I said into something entirely different. I'll say it again for the people in the back...
I noted that you said the government had a monopoly over
quote:
all of these institutions
and that the media among other institutions would be better off
quote:
if people were able to choose which [...] media outlets thrive and die with their own buck
I am very sorry 'swords for reading your words as you wrote them. Will not happen again. sad

But sure, I'll indulge your doublespeak for a minute and intepret your statement as it was so clearly intended. Can you explain what regulations if abolished would make voters smarter? Maybe if govt. stopped regulating public indecency so we could see more titties?


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 12:28 AM
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