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The effect of same sex parents on Kids
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Rockydonovang
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The effect of same sex parents on Kids

What Science Says:
he Effects of Marriage, Civil Union, and Domestic Partnership Laws on the Health and Well-being of Children" Pediatrics. 2006:
"More than 25 years of research have documented that there is no relationship between parents' sexual orientation and any measure of a child's emotional, psychosocial, and behavioral adjustment. These data have demonstrated no risk to children as a result of growing up in a family with 1 or more gay parents. Conscientious and nurturing adults, whether they are men or women, heterosexual or homosexual, can be excellent parents."

Marriage of Same-Sex Couples – 2006 Position Statement Canadian Psychological Association:
"A review of the psychological research into the well-being of children raised by same-sex and opposite-sex parents continues to indicate that there are no reliable differences in their mental health or social adjustment and that lesbian mothers and gay fathers are not less fit as parents than are their heterosexual counterparts."

Legal Recognition of Same-Sex Relationships in the United States : A social science perspective." American Psychologist. 2006:
"Despite considerable variation in the quality of their samples, research design, measurement methods, and data analysis techniques, the findings to date have been remarkably consistent. Empirical research to date has consistently failed to find linkages between children’s well-being and the sexual orientation of their parents. If gay, lesbian, or bisexual parents were inherently less capable than otherwise comparable heterosexual parents, their children would evidence problems regardless of the type of sample. This pattern clearly has not been observed. Given the consistent failures in this research literature to disprove the null hypothesis, the burden of empirical proof is on those who argue that the children of sexual minority parents fare worse than the children of heterosexual parents."

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) Parented Families - A Literature Review prepared for The Australian Psychological Society:
"The family studies literature indicates that it is family processes (such as the quality of parenting and relationships within the family) that contribute to determining children’s wellbeing and ‘outcomes’, rather than family structures, per se, such as the number, gender, sexuality and co-habitation status of parents. The research indicates that parenting practices and children’s outcomes in families parented by lesbian and gay parents are likely to be at least as favourable as those in families of heterosexual parents, despite the reality that considerable legal discrimination and inequity remain significant challenges for these families."

How Does the Gender of Parents Matter?" Journal of Marriage and Family. 2010:
"No research supports the widely held conviction that the gender of parents matters for child well-being."

Affidavit - United States District Court for the District of Massachusetts" Michael Lamb, Ph.D. 2009:
"It is well-established that both men and women have the capacity to be good parents, and that having parents of both genders does not enhance adjustment. Based on a significant and well-respected body of research, the scientific community has reached consensus that parental sexual orientation does not affect adjustment. Numerous organizations representing mental health and child welfare professionals have issued statements confirming that same-sex parents are as effective as heterosexual parents in raising well-adjusted children and adolescents and should not face discrimination. See Exhibit B. These organizations include the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the Child Welfare League of America, and the North American Council on Adoptable Children."

Case No. S147999 in the Supreme Court of the State of California:
"The scientific research that has directly compared outcomes for children with gay and lesbian parents with outcomes for children with heterosexual parents has been remarkably consistent in showing that lesbian and gay parents are every bit as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and their children are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents. Amici emphasize that the abilities of gay and lesbian persons as parents and the positive outcomes for their children are not areas where credible scientific researchers disagree. Statements by the leading associations of experts in this area reflect professional consensus that children raised by lesbian or gay parents do not differ in any important respects from those raised by heterosexual parents. No credible empirical research suggests otherwise."

And so I don't get accused of cherrypicking, here's what a google search turned up:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sci...me&ie=UTF-8

What Jordan Peterson says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF4PS6sVn3w

(1:16)
-> mother, father, child is the smallest viable unit
-> if you fragment that there will be consequences

And unlike a certain ny times article, I've posted the link to the full interview here. So if you feel I'm being unfair regarding context, you're welcome to give me a time stamp.

Old Post Jun 4th, 2018 10:24 PM
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Surtur
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So in reality this is just another attempted "gotcha" against Jordan. And IMO it has failed. I watched the entire clip of him you provided. Yes he does say the things you quoted. But if you watch further it's not that he thinks same sex couples should not be parents.

Rather he thinks it would be best if these couples made an effort to expose their child to what they are missing out on. The studies you talk about show that being raised by, for instance, two lesbians is not going to impact a childs overall well being. So he is saying that in such an instance a child would benefit by also being exposed to a male role model.

Saying there will be consequences does not necessarily mean the overall well being of the child would be impacted.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2018 11:04 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
[B]So in reality this is just another attempted "gotcha" against Jordan. And IMO it has failed. I watched the entire clip of him you provided. Yes he does say the things you quoted.
]

Great. So what strawmen are you going to apply to the op?

quote:
But if you watch further it's not that he thinks same sex couples should not be parents.

There we go!!! Do tell me where the op said he did.


quote:
Saying there will be consequences does not necessarily mean the overall well being of the child would be impacted.

Uh, it does when he literally says, "if you fragment the mother-father-child dynamic, you end up paying."
And, assuming you bothered to watch the interview, the question asked is should same sex couples raise kids?

If his response is to say that straying from mom-dad-child is "fragmenting", and then ist a bunch of challenges that wouldn't otherwise be present if the family was straight, that Peterson feels children would ideally be raised by straight couples is pretty obvious.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Jun 4th, 2018 at 11:14 PM

Old Post Jun 4th, 2018 11:10 PM
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Robtard
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So he's just saying the overall obvious again to impress the easily impressed? That a child with two mothers might benefit from being exposed to a (I assume he means positive?) male role model.

Yeah, this guy is WAY overrated, glad to see more and more people are catching on it his say-the-obvious-but-use-a-lot-words shtick.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2018 11:10 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
]

Great. So what strawmen are you going to apply to the op?


There we go!!! Do tell me where the op said he did.



Uh, it does when he literally says, "if you fragment the mother-father-child dynamic, you end up paying."


No, it doesn't mean that.

But may I ask what the point of including anything about JP is in a topic about how same sex couples are no worse than hetero ones?


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2018 11:14 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
So he's just saying the overall obvious again to impress the easily impressed? That a child with two mothers might benefit from being exposed to a (I assume he means positive?) male role model.

Yeah, this guy is WAY overrated, glad to see more and more people are catching on it his say-the-obvious-but-use-a-lot-words shtick.


Bingo about what he was saying. It's not controversial and no it's not something hard to figure out.

JP agree's with you that the stuff he says isn't ground breaking.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2018 11:18 PM
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Robtard
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His smugness disagrees with that comment then, as he clearly thinks very high of what he says.

Also, a child with two mothers might NOT benefit from being exposed to a male role model. *Mind Blown* I should write a book now.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2018 11:32 PM
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I'd prefer same-sex couples raising children over traditional genders only so that humans can evolve to move away from animal instincts.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 12:05 AM
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Wut


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 12:24 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
]

Great. So what strawmen are you going to apply to the op?


There we go!!! Do tell me where the op said he did.



Uh, it does when he literally says, "if you fragment the mother-father-child dynamic, you end up paying."
And, assuming you bothered to watch the interview, the question asked is should same sex couples raise kids?

If his response is to say that straying from mom-dad-child is "fragmenting", and then ist a bunch of challenges that wouldn't otherwise be present if the family was straight, that Peterson feels children would ideally be raised by straight couples is pretty obvious.


You're trying far far too hard.

Yes, the best possible outcome is one father, one mother, where both are the biological parents of the children being raised in one home.

quote:
The simple truth is, there exists a mountain of social science research which demonstrates that children do best when raised in a biological, two-parent household, cemented by marriage.


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...37.2003.00876.x

That's the golden standard. Talk to any social worker or family psychologist: the best possible outcome is that golden standard.

Anything else that deviates from that will affect best possible outcomes.




But, please do, break apart each of those studies.

You need to cover the following elements if you wish to be academically honest:

1. Sample Collection - Self-reported? How were the study samples (the same-sex and hetersexual couples) collected? If it is self-reported or voluntary study where sampling contained any element of being informed of the study prior to the study being undertaken, there will be a very large positive sampling bias. We saw this with twin studies and homosexuality. When proper controls were put in place, the rates of homosexuality among twins drastically dropped which many people don't want to talk about. And it turns out that I'm right about this: They use convenience samples instead of randomized sampling. http://www.biomedcentral.com/conten...2458-14-635.pdf

But that's not all:

quote:
Of the several dozen extant studies on same-sex parenting in the past two decades, only eight have used a random sample large enough to find evidence of lower well-being for children with same-sex parents if it exists. Of these eight, the four most recent studies, by Dr. Mark Regnerus, Dr. Douglas Allen and two by Dr. Paul Sullins, report substantial and pertinent negative outcomes for children with same-sex parents. The four earlier studies, by Dr. Michael Rosenfeld and three by Dr. Jennifer Wainright and colleagues, find no differences for children with same-sex parents because, due to errors in file coding and analysis, a large portion of their samples actually consists of children with heterosexual parents.

When the sample used by Wainright’s three studies is corrected of this error and re-analyzed, these data also show negative outcomes for children with same-sex parents similar to those reported by Regnerus and Sullins. More importantly, they also show substantially worse outcomes for children who have lived an average of ten years with same-sex parents who are married than for those who have lived only four years, on average, with unmarried same-sex parents. At this time, the three largest statistically representative datasets used to address the question—Regnerus’s New Family Structures Survey, with 3,000 cases; the National Health Interview Survey, with 1.6 million cases; and the National Longitudinal Survey of Adolescent Health, with 20,000 cases—have all found that children with same-sex parents fare substantially worse—most measures show at least twice the level of distress— than do children with opposite-sex parents on a range of psychological, developmental and emotional outcomes.“ – Submission to the US Supreme Court by the American College of Pediatricians and Family Watch International.


Seems sampling and accuracy is the end-all be-all of this particular debate with poor sampling methods and weak analytics, it should be obvious that the social sciences are rife with scientific credibility. This is known as the reproducability crisis.

2. Did they take into consideration how many partners the parents had, from either sexual orientation? Because this study showed heterosexual couples have longer relationships, on average, compared to their homosexaul peers. This is important because a stable couple in a stable home is very important for raising happy, healthy children.

3. However, married couples have little to no difference on marriage longevity and this might be important to put this argument to bed. If they stay married the same length of time, on average, seems like #2 would not be much of a factor if at all. So we should require couples be married before adopting children, right?

4. a) Do the studies only use homosexual couples that were together for any amount of time that a child cohabitated or b)did they include only those where the homosexual parents were with the child all throughout the child's minor life into adulthood? If the former (a), then it needs to be compared to a comparable heterosexual data set where proportions are represented properly. 100% guaranteed you do not understand that because it is convoluted as hell. So I'll better explain: homosexual couples are shorter relationships. If the research is including any homosexual couples that were cohabitating and raising a child, then that standard needs to be applied to the proper heterosexual couple. For 1 year, compare that one year to the child during and after. Since there are far more heterosexual couples than homosexual, you will have to use ratios rather than absolute numbers (obviously). For example, your study may read, "34% of children who lived with homosexual adults where 1 was the biological parent, experienced suicidal thoughts and greater than 3 negative encounters with law enforcement. This same figure is 17% for children who lived with heterosexual adults where one was the biological parent." Does that make sense?

If the latter (b), then I would like to see that research. I would say for this situation, you would see much more positive outcomes for the children regardless of the parents in the home. Based on trends I see in the research, you'd probably see better outcomes for the "golden standard" but the homosexual life-partners would probably have better outcomes for the children than single parent homes, if I remember the research correctly.


For me, this is simple: I support the idea of raising children in same-sex relationships. Or any. Adoption should have the same standards for the parents regardless of the parents.

I covered a lot. I hope I busted up a lot of myths. The main purpose was the show you how crappy those studies are regarding same-sex couples. When better research is done, it shows clear negative outcomes for the children that come from same-sex homes. This is not what many want to be heard or known because many homosexual couples want to have children and would be kickass parents. So I understand why they would try to fudge research to support the cause.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 12:41 AM
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Rockydonovang
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Double D, here's the conclusion of the first study you linked:
quote:
Conclusions: Australian children with same-sex attracted parents [i\score higher than population samples on a
number of parent-reported measures of child health.[/i] Perceived stigma is negatively associated with mental
health. Through improved awareness of stigma these findings play an important role in health policy, improving child
health outcomes.

The reason there's lower mental health isn't because of the reasons peterson outlines, but because of the "social stigma" around same sex couples. Otherwise, they fared better on parent reported health. That's hardly the conclusive "Yes, the best possible outcome is one father, one mother, where both are the biological parents of the children being raised in one home. "


For your second study:
quote:
This study contributes to the emerging demographic literature on sameâ€sex couples by comparing the level and correlates of union stability among 4 types of couples: (a) male sameâ€sex cohabitation, (b) female sameâ€sex cohabitation, (c) differentâ€sex cohabitation, and (d) differentâ€sex marriage. The author analyzed data from 2 British birth cohort studies: the National Child Development Study (N = 11,469) and the 1970 British Cohort Study (N = 11,924). These data contain retrospective histories of sameâ€sex and differentâ€sex unions throughout young adulthood (age 16–34) from 1974 through 2004. Eventâ€history analyses showed that sameâ€sex cohabitations have higher rates of dissolution than do differentâ€sex cohabiting and marital unions. Among sameâ€sex couples, male couples had slightly higher dissolution rates than did female couples. In addition, sameâ€sex couples from the 1958 and 1970 birth cohorts had similar levels of union stability. The demographic correlates of union stability are generally similar for sameâ€sex and differentâ€sex unions.


Fair enough, but i'd like to see more than one study here.

In the mean time,i'll try and look deeper at the multiple studies i linked to see if they have the issues you say.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Jun 5th, 2018 at 01:12 AM

Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 01:04 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
--


It's okay, we agree on the conclusion, so the details to get there do not matter.



We should, instead, talk about standards for adopting children. What should those standards be?


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I admittedly opened the wrong study for some reason. Anyway, having read the relevant ones, I've edited my comment accordingly.

quote:
We should, instead, talk about standards for adopting children. What should those standards be?

Have ACS examine the homes and finacial stability of the family? Have a pshycologist green light the parent's mental capacity?

Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 01:15 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Wut
The family structure must die in order for the new world order to be set into motion.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 01:15 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Double D, here's the conclusion of the first study you linked:

The reason there's lower mental health isn't because of the reasons peterson outlines, but because of the "social stigma" around same sex couples. Otherwise, they fared better on parent reported health. That's hardly the conclusive "Yes, the best possible outcome is one father, one mother, where both are the biological parents of the children being raised in one home. "


For your second study:

Fair enough, but i'd like to see more than one study here.

In the mean time,i'll try and look deeper at the multiple studies i linked to see if they have the issues you say.


This is what I have from the first study:

quote:
Teens living with cohabiting stepparents often fare worse than teens living with two biological married parents. Adolescents living in cohabiting stepfamilies experience greater disadvantage than teens living in married stepfamilies. Most of these differences, however, are explained by socioeconomic circumstances. Teenagers living with single unmarried mothers are similar to teens living with cohabiting stepparents; exceptions include greater delinquency and lower grade point averages experienced by teens living with cohabiting stepparents. Yet mother's marital history explains these differences. Our results contribute to our understanding of cohabitation and debates about the importance of marriage for children.



Also, it seems like couple stability is a more important factor, if I am reading the literature correctly, than the genders of both parents.


Seems that having a long-term, lasting relationship, throughout a child's adolescence is more important that if you have two dads.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 01:19 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Have ACS examine the homes and finacial stability of the family? Have a pshycologist green light the parent's mental capacity?


These are good measures.

I'd want to add a second opinion to the psychological evaluation. And proof if income and stable residence. I'd also want them to have "referrals" stating that they keep relationships for long periods of time (years). And that their current marriage or coupling is going to last a long time.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 01:20 AM
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What do you make of this bit?
quote:
Conclusions: Australian children with same-sex attracted parents [i\score higher than population samples on a
number of parent-reported measures of child health.[



quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
These are good measures.

I'd want to add a second opinion to the psychological evaluation. And proof if income and stable residence. I'd also want them to have "referrals" stating that they keep relationships for long periods of time (years). And that their current marriage or coupling is going to last a long time.

I question the practicality. Are there enough eligible willing parents? Is it economically practical? I've also seen the idea floated of having adoption as an alternative to abortion which would add to the number of kids who need parents.

Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 01:32 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur

Saying there will be consequences does not necessarily mean the overall well being of the child would be impacted.
Well I mean, he is saying that, or rather, he's saying that on average this is the case, and that the ideal situation is one mother, one father.

I don't take any particular issue with his statements in that video (it's one of the ones I've actually seen), but that is what he says. I think that, given that perspective, what he brought up was both fairly reasonable and respectful of prospective homophag parents.

But it is what he said lol.


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I feel the abundance of attention that can be gained from same sex parents for the child far outweighs concerns over the childs future.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2018 06:34 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Wonder Man
I feel the abundance of attention that can be gained from same sex parents for the child far outweighs concerns over the childs future.

Something tells me it might not be positive attention.


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