Women wear red lipstick because "the lips turn red during sexual arousal" and therefore women do it solely to sexually titillate men, and therefore any workplace where women wear red lipstick is inherently sexual and thus all bets are off and it's open season on sexual behavior (he claims he does not mean to imply this, yet he then goes on to say that he believes that women have some culpability for sexualizing in the workplace by this meager definition - still others insist that he never said that, in which case I might ask what the point of this observation even is? If nobody is responsible for it and he is not suggesting that any course of action is necessary that would incorporate this knowledge in any way, then why bring it up?)
In addition, men sexually harassing women in the workplace is actually women's fault because they wear makeup, which of course is only ever done for the express purpose of sexually titillating men (this is news to me as a male who doesn't find makeup attractive, and whose SO has only ever worn light makeup to an interview to appear clean and professional)
Also high heels are a secret ploy by women to attract men just so they can manipulate men ("silly cuck he doesn't use the word 'secret ploy,' he only said that women deliberately manipulate men using sex! That's totally different!)
When asked what we should do about these things, he suggests, "The Maoists gave everyone uniforms to keep this thing from happening," implying that the only "solutions" are to either (A) go full-blown Communist China, or (B) just allow literally everything and hold nobody accountable for their actions in the workplace. This is clever, but in an extremely sinister way - he's insinuating that communism and sexual harassment are two sides of the same coin. This is borderline newspeak levels of manipulative. Of course his defenders claim that he isn't doing this on purpose. But if you look at it in any other context then this comment seems out of place - he's extremely anti-communist so it's obvious that he's not advocating this course of action unironically, and if he is being ironic then the point is that he's satirizing the idea that people should try to control these behaviors as some kind of totalitarian collectivism. So what does he "actually mean," then?)
We as a society are "deteriorating rapidly" as a direct result of men and women working together because of this "provocation"
Sexual harassment in the workplace won't stop because "We don't know the rules" (literally just don't take any action which connotes a sense of entitlement to another person's personal space or body, it's literally that simple, I've been doing this for more than a decade and I've never once even been accused of sexual harassment and I've never felt inclined to do so)
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Last edited by Putinbot1 on Nov 13th, 2018 at 02:50 PM
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Good Lord, I addressed all of this a long time ago, in a thread far far away.
I'll address it again when I'm not dealing with engineering homework.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Also, I'm super smart. Because Whirly left a clue at the beginning of the post so I won't fall for his copy-paste from that degenerate Facebook fan-page. WEEEE!
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
The point Jordan Peterson is making is that there's an acceptable level of sexual tension in the workplace. If people say there is no acceptable level of sexual tension in the workplace to the point where even hugging shouldn't be allowed then women shouldn't dress in a way that accentuates their sexual characteristics, and that such a thing is clearly a repressive solution. He's not saying "either anything goes or maoist china with uniforms" he's advocating for a middle ground.
The point he was making about the rules isn't that things like sexual assault or blatant harassment are justifiable, it's that there's obviously blurred lines where it isn't obvious.
Take for example a joke of a sexual nature that when told among a group of exclusively male coworkers doesn't constitute sexual harassment, and is what it is, a joke. If you introduce a woman into the group does it suddenly become sexual harassment if she is not the object of the joke? Does it become sexual harassment based on whether or not she subjectively takes offense to it?
What about a level of flirtation? If some really hot guy flirts with a girl and she's into it, that's not sexual harassment. But if some fat weird looking neckbeard does exactly the same thing and she's not into it is that suddenly sexual harassment? How do you know if someone's into it or not without trying? The point of flirtation is to see if the other person is into you.
Or take comments on someone's appearance for example. If a guy compliments a female coworker on her appearance is that harassment? How is that determined? Is it based on the level of offense she takes? Is that objectification to take interest in someone else's appearance? If nobody is supposed to take any interest in your appearance, why dress yourself up?
Is it not the behavior but whether or not someone takes offense to the behavior? Because that is in fact an impossible and subjective standard to set policy around.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Last edited by Emperordmb on Nov 13th, 2018 at 05:25 PM
Why bother? He's just a troll who is butthurt that JP is better than him.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
has jp actually helped any of these young fragile men to get laid, or is he just about justifying sexism/sexual harrassment/rape?
__________________ Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
I would imagine bringing up JP's talking points on a first date would act as a vaginal repellent to most women and the date would be both the first and last.
JP helped himself to advertising revenue and money.
Hell of a scam, JP.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Q: Take for example a joke of a sexual nature that when told among a group of exclusively male coworkers doesn't constitute sexual harassment, and is what it is, a joke. If you introduce a woman into the group does it suddenly become sexual harassment if she is not the object of the joke? Does it become sexual harassment based on whether or not she subjectively takes offense to it?
A: No. But if she says those jokes make her uncomfortable and they continue to tell them around her, that becomes sexual harassment and most companies would put them on disciplinary action up to and including termination.
Q: What about a level of flirtation? If some really hot guy flirts with a girl and she's into it, that's not sexual harassment. But if some fat weird looking neckbeard does exactly the same thing and she's not into it is that suddenly sexual harassment?
A: No. It only becomes sexual harassment if she declines but he continues. Hence the word "harassment." One offer to pursue a romantic relationship and then done. Also, the offer cannot be sexually explicit, either. You cannot say, "Let's bang after work." That's goes straight to sexual harassment as it goes beyond any normal human decency to expect that be okay in the workplace.
Q: How do you know if someone's into it or not without trying? The point of flirtation is to see if the other person is into you.
A: How about not being an idiot at work and keeping it professional? Why not try that? Seems easier to do. But if you cannot resist, see my previous answer. Ask once. If declined, don't ask again: ever again.
Q: If nobody is supposed to take any interest in your appearance, why dress yourself up?
A: This one is easy and I already covered it in depth. Better looking, more success. It's that simple.
Q: 1. Or take comments on someone's appearance for example. If a guy compliments a female coworker on her appearance is that harassment? 2. How is that determined? Is it based on the level of offense she takes? Is that objectification to take interest in someone else's appearance? If nobody is supposed to take any interest in your appearance, why dress yourself up?
A: 1. Depends on the compliment. "That blouse makes your boobs look great." No. "That blouse looks great." Yes. That's okay. This is extremely obvious to anyone who is not an idiot. But overly complimenting someone can take it too far. 10 compliments on someone's appearance each day can constitute harassment. Perhaps not sexual. But harassment. 2. Covered this already.
Q: Is it not the behavior but whether or not someone takes offense to the behavior?
A: Yes. Covered this already. If they don't like it, don't do it. Don't be sexually explicit ever. If you continue after being told to stop, that's harassment. If it is in pursuit of a relationship, that's sexual harassment. And if she's scared of you even after one attempt and you get talked to by HR, that's her choice as well (she doesn't have to ever give you a hard "no" or hard decline. She may even feel too scared to reject you and go straight to HR - that's the risk you take trying to puruse a relationship with someone at work you (no "EmperorDMB" you, ambiguous you) dumbass).
Q: Because that is in fact an impossible and subjective standard to set policy around.
A: Wrong. Policy is set in place already. Works very well. Companies also have "no relationship" policies or "must disclose relationships to HR" policies to protect themselves from idiots who don't know how to calm down at work.
Here's the key takeaway from your questions that you're missing that makes everything make sense:
Ask with tact and professionalism just once. If declined, never try again. Ever. Also, you risk getting into trouble for even trying once depending on company policy. Best Advice is to not pursue relationships while at work.
Check it out: I've never had to go talk to anyone in HR, ever, about sexual harassment. I've never had to go to HR about my romantic relationships in the work place (avoided them). And I've been working in the adult world a very long time. I'm very healthy - definitely a red-blooded man. And there are plenty of very attractive women in the work place wherever I work. But here's my secret: my libido has not place in the workplace because I'm not a dumbass.
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
That is a reasonable medium and not the subject of criticism.
The point was about overzealous HR departments who are so afraid of this shit they're willing to ban hugging between coworkers. Or people who instead of just telling the person to stop will immediately go to HR and get the whole thing blown into something it wasn't.
The point wasn't that there should be no rules or standards, the point was that HR departments have gone power mad with those standards.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Maaaaaaaan....hugs at work? Physically grabbing someone into an embrace?
Save those for your grandma during the holidays. Kiss her cheeks as well (Just lost mine - miss her dearly). Hold her hands when you walk her to sit down, too.
But at work? Dude...no...stop...don't...
I say let the women hug you if they want. Make sure you let all of your coworkers know that you are an affectionate person and hug freely but have to stifle yourself at work. Then your corworkers will know it is okay to hug you.
But, except for pats on the bug, fist-bumps, and handshakes...no! stop! don't! Leave your coworkers' bodies alone!!!
Edit - I would hug you at work, DMB, if you said you were a hugger. Don't worry, I'd still show you love. But the occasion would be rare. Maybe if you were transferring, quitting, or going on a lengthy vacation?
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
I'm sorry for your loss DDM
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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
I'm sorry for your loss, too. Thoughts and prayers.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
During my school days, I worked on an educational video for grade schoolers. This one incident happened, and the kids embraced to make up.
And the teachers immediately pulled them apart, like they were parents looking after drunken frat kids. And admonished their behavior.
That is one of the saddest things I remember from that era. The kids just learned that well meant, genuine affection is wrong.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.