There's certainly no such thing as 'white privilege.'
__________________ Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earth bound feathered dinosaur. But it is not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of 'paleobabble' is going to change that.-- Alan Feduccia-a world authority on birds, quoted in "Archaeopteryx:Early Bird Catches a Can of Worms," Science 1994, p.764-765
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
This stems more from your lack of understanding on privilege than a disagreement with privilege. From birth, you're already dealing with factors determined entirely by luck. Someone is incredibly privileged if they are born in a 1st world nation and speak English as their mother tongue, for example. They did nothing to earn these, and it was sheer luck they weren't born in North Korea or a warlord controlled village somewhere. It doesn't mean they don't work hard and it doesn't mean they never experience pain or struggle. You can be happy with the work you've done and still acknowledge the ways in which you're privileged.
Anyway, I think this qualifies as a troll thread and may get closed.
Nah. Intersectionality is about putting yourself in several restrictive boxes and having your worth judged based on how 'oppressed' or 'privileged' you are. It's a disgusting ethos and ideology and should be wiped out with extreme prejudice.
People are individuals and that is a good thing. And a society should be set up in a way to enable the most people to live their individual lives to a decent standard. To me that means things like free universal education, food programs for children, social safety nets that pick you up if you are not doing so well without stigmatizing ad dehumanizing you. And I think most of the societies I am familiar with fail at these things in one way or another.
As for privilege itself, I'm not a huge fan of the word as it is generally used. I do think the academic discussion of privilege is fascinating and worthwhile, but when applying it to every day life I think we are really more using it like the word "advantages".
And when it comes to advantages I think there clearly are a lot things that some people are advantaged over than others. If you have rich parents who can contribute time to your education, leave you a significant inheritance and are able to connect you with influential people that can give you career breaks in whatever field you are interested in, that is a significant advantage you have over someone that does not have these things. And I think calling that a privilege is not wrong. Similarly there's advantages that able bodied people have over disabled people, I think we can all agree that people who can see have an easier time in this world that those that can not, even though our societies have done many things to equalize that more. I think that as well is a somewhat uncontroversial form of being privileged. Other forms of privilege that are often discussed, like white privilege or cis privilege are of course heatedly debated, I presume that's the type of privilege you think does not exist.
As for intersectionality, similar to the academic discussion of privilege I see a lot of value in it. Of course people fit into different broad categories that influence how they will experience life in broad terms. But there too it is easy to find pathologies, which I assume the poster Scribble, is worried about. For example if you look at the current fights over racism in the united states, if you approach this with a limited idea of identity politics I think you'll come to the wrong conclusions. If you reduce everything to "is that person black or not", which many Democrats do, you are missing immense historical and economic aspects that play into the social situation we find ourselves in. At the same time, if you exclude race completely from the discussion, you will miss the mark.
That's where I see a positive form of intersectionality being a valuable lens. For example, someone like Obama, a half white, rich lawyer will have a completely different experiences, and a shitload more advantages, than a black working stiff that may have just been fired due to the economic downturn. That latter person is black too, and that does change some things about their experience, but they are much closer in their real material situation to the white working class guy that just got laid off as well. So I think if intersectionality can be used to help people understand each other, and foster solidarity between people that are being ****ed over by the system it's valuable, when it separates us, it is not.
Ultimately both individual lenses and lenses that group people together to make them easier to discuss scientifically have value imo. Hope that wasn't too long of an answer.
Good post. Although as a white , University Educated man from Britain living in Africa and working in Africa and the middle east, I see privilege in a way most never will. It's real, I've made use of it.
Last edited by Old Man Whirly! on Jun 26th, 2020 at 08:49 AM
Fantastic post, Artol! Far more nuanced than my admittedly reactionary response. You are correct in your assessment of my dislike of the current 'Church of Intersectionality' that I see developing in modern far-left rhetoric. I think it eschews almost all individuality and I find it very dehumanising, which isn't to say I don't think in theory that it has its merits, it's just that it's posited as absolute truth, which I find dangerous and unhelpful to discussion.
I really dislike and distrust the Oppression Olympics that has consumed much of the left in the West. It ends up with crap like this:
But that isn't to say that understanding groups of people and what their advantages and disadvantages are in society isn't useful, because it is. Whilst the ideal of the 'individual' is incredibly important, seeing people just as individuals without any cultural, physical, racial (etc.) ties is to dismiss many issues that groups of people might be confronted with throughout their lives.
I feel like we're living in very 'all or nothing' times, when what we need is more nuance, more discussion, and more open-mindedness, as opposed to the fake (and abstractly conflicting) ideals of being 'woke' or 'based'.
Good shout, Whirly; there are many parts of the world where one's 'privileges' are far more pronounced and have much larger impacts.
That feels more like a thing restricted to certain social media warriors though. I too dislike the "Twitter mentality" I've found in some places, where they play the Oppression Olympics with their identities. I find that they often don't understand the concepts they're speaking on. They're well meaning usually, but are too caught up in identity politics to talk to without really getting to know them first.
That said, intersectionality is simply the best tool we have to discuss how our various identities converge to shape our experiences in a given social context. It's supposed to elevate individual experiences, not hide them.
I agree with what you said. I'm just highlighting this for discussion.
Intersectionality is what allows us to understand that different groups aren't monoliths, even if they share an undercurrent of marginalization. It's why there's been a move towards recognizing "Black Experiences" rather than "The Black Experience." There isn't only one black experience. Even if all are affected by certain social institutions, it won't necessarily manifest the same way.
"The Black Experience" became somewhat regressive, because it implied that Black = poor, when statistically, it isn't true. Being poor is further complicated by being black of course, and poor black lives are still worth empowering, but any given black person could belong to any economic class.
This could apply for trans people, or immigrants, or Mormons, or sex workers or whatever. People are still individuals, even if identity-related commonalities exist.
Last edited by StyleTime on Jun 26th, 2020 at 10:02 AM
IMO, it's reverse racism. It should be 'majority privilege', because if I was in, say, China or Ethiopia, my paleness would grant me no special status.
Like 'toxic masculinity'. Sexist, given that females can be just as toxic.
This is what the far left had best take care with, ie, substituting one double-standard for another. Revenge is not progress; it just keeps the cycle of hate and anger going.
__________________
Shinier than a speeding bullet.
Here's the thing about "white privilege". It only really exists if you're rich and white.
The idea of inherent advantages for middle class/lower middle class/poor whites may exist in some form or other, but I would argue are balance out by a lack of access to social services that are earmarked by race.
For example, you have an ailing grandfather who served in World War 2, is registered with the Veterans Hospital, and loses all of his independence due to a fall. His son is forced to care for him, and suffers a heart attack. The state is turned to for an aid, and is told in no uncertain terms "Look, CT isn't paying for a helper. You never heard this from me, but if your father was black, we wouldn't even be having this conversation."
So a multiple heart attack victim ended up being his sole provider, and it was almost a blessing in disguise when another fall happened and the hospitals were forced to take him (And I hate to say this, but it's true)
I'm currently seeing the exact same thing play out with another family that is white. They just called, asking for help with an old friend of my grandfathers, and tips on trying to argue his case to get help as they rejected him outright.
If you aren't rich, are white, and need help, you are on your own in America.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Rich black people have the same advantages as rich white people though. If anything, there is 'wealth privilege' irrespective of "race."
__________________ Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earth bound feathered dinosaur. But it is not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of 'paleobabble' is going to change that.-- Alan Feduccia-a world authority on birds, quoted in "Archaeopteryx:Early Bird Catches a Can of Worms," Science 1994, p.764-765
Not true, a black local person with the same qualifications as me would not get my job. Similarly we even have privilege from the School you go to, if you went to Oxford, MIT or one some colleges of University of London as I did, you have far more chances both through networking and College prestige and reputation than if you went to some no name establishment.
I think using the word "advantages" works in helping to explain privilege to folks who don't quite get it - but advantages are something you can work to obtain, where as privilege isn't.
You can work to obtain privilege/s too, though? Especially when talking of class privilege, which is the most impactful and meaningful form of privilege.
Honestly, I see far fewer people speaking rationally as you are these days than those social media warriors you mention. Those loud, fervent voices are drowning out most nuance and have turned intersectionality into a church and a weapon. And tbh, I don't think they are well-meaning. I tried to think that, but after the past few years, all benefit of the doubt and good will I had has been wiped away.
As long as intersectionality is used properly — i.e. as a tool, not a doctrine — it's perfectly useful. But by and large, it isn't. It's used to wipe away individualism and box everyone in. Until I see it being used responsibly, I'm not willing to give it an inch, other than in rational conversations like this, where I know you are seeing it from a more complex and nuanced point of view.
Bull spit. There are certainly privileged individuals and families. Sure, an ancestor worked to get them to a life with less worries. It's not their fault they have a head start, but they are privileged.
__________________ Listen, boy. Have you ever had your scrotum pulled off by a mountain goat and seen him sell it on eBay a day later?
Furthermore, societal mentalities ebb and flow. Certain groups get some limited privilege caused by majority pressures. But you can't tell me that the top 5 percenters aren't privileged. Get outta here with that nonsense
__________________ Listen, boy. Have you ever had your scrotum pulled off by a mountain goat and seen him sell it on eBay a day later?
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