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Did JRR Tolkien invent the Orcs?
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Dejio
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Location: QLD, Australia

Did JRR Tolkien invent the Orcs?

Tolkien is considered to be one of the pioneers in "midieval" fantasies. His books has spawned many other fantasy books and inspired a lot of RPG's, video games, etc.
So, my question is: Did he invent the Orcs?
How about elves? I know he probably didn't invent them, but he may have invented them in their current form. Tall, slender and great with bows.

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2003 04:28 AM
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BackFire
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he may have. who knows.


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2003 10:27 AM
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Dexx
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he inspired his works from a lot of legends. I think the elves come from german ones.

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2003 03:10 PM
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REXXXX
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Also his works had Christian things tied in. The Ring was like sin, tempting people. See if you people can find any more...

I think he did invent the Orcs. Their cool, which makes up for their stupidity and ugliness...


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2003 12:03 AM
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Dexx
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orcs are indeed ugly..but stupid?..they can be great warriors.
Dunno if he inevnted them. the orx mix with other terms (like ogres) in other legends/stories

Old Post Jan 4th, 2003 12:07 AM
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finti
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or Troll as in Norse mythology

Old Post Jan 4th, 2003 11:01 PM
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Mujaffa
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look master frodo there's bilbos trolls..


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Old Post Jan 5th, 2003 05:42 PM
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General Kaliero
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I wondered about that. I can't remember, was Bilbo attacked by trolls in "There and Back Again"? I remember Goblins but no trolls...


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2003 01:49 AM
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justaguy451
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he had no allegories

quote:
Originally posted by Captain REX
Also his works had Christian things tied in. The Ring was like sin, tempting people. See if you people can find any more...

I think he did invent the Orcs. Their cool, which makes up for their stupidity and ugliness...


Tolkien hated people like you that would take his works and make allegorical statements with them mad

Old Post Jan 10th, 2003 06:37 PM
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justaguy451
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at the edge of the wild the trolls tried to eat them but Gandalf stopped them

Old Post Jan 10th, 2003 06:38 PM
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mah
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Re: he had no allegories

quote:
Originally posted by justaguy451
Tolkien hated people like you that would take his works and make allegorical statements with them mad

but he did state that it had christian values and so forth


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Old Post Jan 10th, 2003 06:44 PM
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justaguy451
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no he didnt read the foreword in the second edition

Old Post Jan 10th, 2003 07:18 PM
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mah
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em, yes he did! in the foreword he only says that there is no allegories to the real world and happenings at the time (WWII and so on).


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Old Post Jan 10th, 2003 10:43 PM
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justaguy451
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allegories PERIOD it says the outside meaning by the author is NONE

Old Post Jan 10th, 2003 11:23 PM
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Fire
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Guys does it really matter,
A) he might have said and thought it he might have not, I dunno, I do believe that he might or might not have changed his opinion on that
so there for it matters lil'
B) I don't think Tolkien would have minded it if that was just someone his "opinion" (using "'s to state that I don't know wether or not I can really call it your opinion) it is not like cpt. rex is writing it in papers or using other forms of mass media
C) most of all I think Tolkien wanted ppl to read his books and while doing so enjoying themselfs and learning a few things about life and themselves


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Old Post Jan 10th, 2003 11:47 PM
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Ushgarak
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Justaguy, please tone down that attitude. Aside from anything else you are wrong. Do not confuse subtext and allegory!

Tolkien is quoted as saying that he avoided overt Christian references in his books because the subtle approach "communicated Christian values more effectively precisely because they were less obvious."

(this lot taken from a Tolkien website)
___According to Tolkien and his close associates, the writings were grounded in an unstinting Christian conviction that, at the end of time, God would finally and forever defeat evil.
___Tolkien rooted that conviction in his own faith in Christ.
___Tolkien said the only criticism of "Lord of the Rings" that ever bothered him was that it "contained no religion."
___He described his fictional Middle Earth as "a monotheistic world of 'natural theology.'"
___The fact there are no churches, temples or religious rites and ceremonies "is simply part of the historical climate depicted" in his fiction, he said.
___"I am in any case myself a Christian," he said, even if his "Third Age" was not a Christian world.
___Tolkien believed eternal truths established in creation would be recognizable even in his fictional "sub creation."
___"We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth which is with God," he told C.S. Lewis during their late night discussion that resulted in Lewis becoming a Christian.
___More insights into the hidden spiritual currents that drive Tolkien's work are found in an acclaimed but lesser-known work, "The Silmarillion."
___The bible of Tolkien's mythical world recounts millennia of history, along with the mythological structure of Middle Earth, including an all-powerful deity, angelic beings and a version of "the fall" of some of those beings.
___The deeper framework allows Tolkien to explore profound questions of destiny and free will, the reality of evil and the task to struggle against it.

Yes, he hated allegory. But none of that WAS allegory!


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Jan 11th, 2003 at 12:04 AM

Old Post Jan 11th, 2003 12:01 AM
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mah
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Gender: Male
Location: FlorÝ, Norway

yes, what Ush says. and to finish it off:

From Tolkiens Letter #142:
"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like `religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. "


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Old Post Jan 11th, 2003 12:03 AM
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glorfindel
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DEEP
My opinion is that he did invent the orcs becase they came from twisted elves.
smokin'

Old Post Jan 12th, 2003 07:39 PM
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Dexx
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or he invented that sentence...only

Old Post Jan 12th, 2003 08:18 PM
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Dejio
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quote:
Originally posted by glorfindel
DEEP
My opinion is that he did invent the orcs becase they came from twisted elves.
smokin'



And to add to that, I have read somewhere that Orcs came from a word in Elven meaning "Foul" thing. Or something like that. And since he made the elven language....

Old Post Jan 14th, 2003 01:17 AM
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