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Sauron vs Gothmog
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ares834
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Sauron vs Gothmog

The two big bad boys (BBB) of Morgoth, fighting for the Udun of it. Who wins?

Old Post May 31st, 2009 01:39 AM
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Hewhoknowsall
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Sauron lost to two "mortals" (elves aren't mortals...but you know what I mean).

(movie) Sauron lost to a wounded mortal who used a broken sword.

Sauron was afraid of Aragorn (who is admittedly badass, but still a mortal)

Sauron got destroyed by Frodo, who is a hobbit


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Old Post May 31st, 2009 02:22 AM
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ares834
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Yes, but Gothmog's death was also incredibly pathetic. Having an elf run you through with a cone-helmet and being tripped into a fountain where he proceeds to drown. Is rather lame.

Old Post May 31st, 2009 02:36 AM
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King-Fingolfin
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Sauron, while weakened, tanked and repelled lightning bolts sent by Manwe himself in Akallabeth. He stomps this


oh, and hewhoknowsall:

1. Sauron lost to Elendil, a peak physical human with apparently incredible strength, and Gil-Galad, a decendant of Fingolfin, and incredibly strong in his own right.

2. Sauron was being an idiot and tried to grab Isildur. But the movies are non-canon anyway

3. He was afraid of Aragorn because of Isildur, and the fact Aragorn could rally Gondor to stand against him.

4. Nah, Gollum slipped and fell into Mt. Doom while dancing with the Ring.


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Old Post Jun 11th, 2009 02:52 AM
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Allankles
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Gothmog was stronger, in a straight fight he'd beat Sauron.


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Old Post Jun 12th, 2009 06:42 PM
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King-Fingolfin
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Where was it stated Gothmog was stronger? Sauron was stated to be the strongest of Morgoth's servants, and the strongest of the maiar.


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And Morgoth came...

Old Post Jun 12th, 2009 10:08 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Where was it stated Gothmog was stronger? Sauron was stated to be the strongest of Morgoth's servants, and the strongest of the maiar.


Sauron was powerful because of his knowledge in alchemy etc and his status as chief of the Maiar in Aule's House.

Gothmog was more martial and physically more impressive. He was the commander of Morgoth's army afterall.

I don't remember anyone talking about Sauron being the strongest. His track record doesn't support him being the strongest as Gothmog was the one claiming victories for Morgoth.


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Last edited by Allankles on Jun 13th, 2009 at 09:34 PM

Old Post Jun 13th, 2009 09:32 PM
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King-Fingolfin
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Perhaps he is physically stronger, but Sauron is by far more intelligent, and possesses his shapeshifting and spellcasting feats.

It's stated several times in the the LOTR and Silmarillion, "Sauron was Morgoth's right hand" "Sauron was the strongest in Morgoth's army".


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And Morgoth came...

Old Post Jun 13th, 2009 09:49 PM
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leonheartmm
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sauron was the strongest maiar by far, surpassing his peers by a significant degreee. as such, gothmog, also a maier, wud be his inferior.

Old Post Jun 13th, 2009 09:55 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Perhaps he is physically stronger, but Sauron is by far more intelligent, and possesses his shapeshifting and spellcasting feats.

It's stated several times in the the LOTR and Silmarillion, "Sauron was Morgoth's right hand" "Sauron was the strongest in Morgoth's army".


Sauron wasn't recruited because of his strength or martial skills and where does it say Sauron was the strongest? He had the most knowledge among the Maiar that followed Morgoth given that Aule (the Valar of crafts) was his master.

But his martial skills and prowess were never praised or emphasized, because he wasn't strong in either.

The command of Morgoth's army was given to Gothmog lord of the Balrogs. It is Gothmog as commander that led Morgoths armies to victories in the absence of his master.

Sauron was lord of the werewolves iirc and was Melkor's right hand man for reasons not related to martial prowess. He became more powerful under Morgoth through.


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Last edited by Allankles on Jun 18th, 2009 at 02:59 AM

Old Post Jun 18th, 2009 02:49 AM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
sauron was the strongest maiar by far, surpassing his peers by a significant degreee. as such, gothmog, also a maier, wud be his inferior.


Sauron wasn't the strongest Maiar. Stronger than the Ishtari who followed him to middle earth maybe, but not the strongest Maiar as there were Maiar reputed specifically for being the greatest martial artists.

Sauron was only the greatest Maiar in Aule's house but there were other Maiar on his level occupying similar roles for even greater Valar than Aule. In the undying lands Sauron was one of the mighty Maiar not the mightiest.


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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Last edited by Allankles on Jun 18th, 2009 at 03:00 AM

Old Post Jun 18th, 2009 02:53 AM
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leonheartmm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles
Sauron wasn't the strongest Maiar. Stronger than the Ishtari who followed him to middle earth maybe, but not the strongest Maiar as there were Maiar reputed specifically for being the greatest martial artists.

Sauron was only the greatest Maiar in Aule's house but there were other Maiar on his level occupying similar roles for even greater Valar than Aule. In the undying lands Sauron was one of the mighty Maiar not the mightiest.


so which maier do u think is greater. eonwe maybe? because id think that sauron with the ONE RING wud be the greatest still. as his power might eventually have truimphed agaisnt middle earth itself, even tom bombadil

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 06:49 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
so which maier do u think is greater. eonwe maybe? because id think that sauron with the ONE RING wud be the greatest still. as his power might eventually have truimphed agaisnt middle earth itself, even tom bombadil


His power with the one ring was more about dominating the spirits of Elves, Dwarves and Men. As we see he was still vulnerable with the ring.

In LOTR having the ring would allow him to reclaim a strong body and he would be able to apply his sorcery against the weakened nations of Men, Dwarves and Elves. It was less about Sauron and more about how weak the Eldar, Men and Dwarves had become.

In the second age Sauron couldn't do anything to Numenor even with his ring.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 07:03 PM
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leonheartmm
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^considering that the numenor were by far the greatest power in the history of middle earth, it isnt surprising. they wud bitchslap all the maier if it came to it, if not the valar so much. but other than DOMINANCE, the main purpose of forging the ring was to combine his power with the elven smiths, as such, sauron WITH the ring, is PHYSICALLY greater than sauron without it, even without the rings ability to control other races.

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 07:16 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^considering that the numenor were by far the greatest power in the history of middle earth, it isnt surprising. they wud bitchslap all the maier if it came to it, if not the valar so much. but other than DOMINANCE, the main purpose of forging the ring was to combine his power with the elven smiths, as such, sauron WITH the ring, is PHYSICALLY greater than sauron without it, even without the rings ability to control other races.


But physical might wouldn't have been the issue if he reclaimed his ring, it's his strengthened will added to the violence of the armies of Mordor, the freedom to work his wiles on the weakened people of Middle Earth. These are the things that would undo the age of men if Sauron recovered the one ring.

In battle he would still be vulnerable and not just from his ring finger.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 08:02 PM
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leonheartmm
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^but you are forgetting the OFFENSIVE and PHYSICAL power of the ring. remember how mordor started crumbling when the ring was destroyed. and gadalf himself said that all the evil beings in mordor wud start crumbling if the ring was destroyed because the evil that gave birth to them wud have been undone.

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2009 08:32 PM
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Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but you are forgetting the OFFENSIVE and PHYSICAL power of the ring. remember how mordor started crumbling when the ring was destroyed. and gadalf himself said that all the evil beings in mordor wud start crumbling if the ring was destroyed because the evil that gave birth to them wud have been undone.


Sauron was kept "alive" by the ring. It allowed him to survive the destruction of Numenor by Ulmo's agents and he survived Isildur because of its existence. The destruction of the ring undid Sauron because his life was tied to it.

Mordor crumbled - I'd assume - because Sauron's spirit inhabited it's towers and foundations. His spirit was "stuck" on the towers and foundations of Mordor, so when he died those structures crumbled. That's the way I saw it.

The wraiths probably crumbled but I'd think the surviving Orcs and trolls merely lost their will to fight as the last dark lord perished.


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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 12:01 AM
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Incanus
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Actually, Allankles is right, the Trolls and Orcs just began wandering aimlessly, and were hunted down and destroyed throughout the Fourth Age.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 10:35 PM
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