How is it hard to determine? It's explicitly mentioned several times that Sauron is the greatest of Morgoth's servants.
Once again:
"Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void."
And here again:
"But at length, after the fall of Fingolfin, Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servantsof Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion."
Let get this out of the way right now, I did not say he kill all the people I mentioned I specifically said he captured Finrod.
"Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, ad the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian:
...
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn
And Finrod fell before the throne."
Here he kills Gil-Galad and Elendil, "But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."
Heck, Sauron's sorcery is so great he even seems to have prevented Manwe's lightning from striking him.
"Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would."
Perhaps not Feanor but Finrod and Gil-Galad are around the same level as Fingon and likely superior to Ecthelion.
Finrod is an Elven King and, like Fingon, a grandson of Finwe. He is also the brother of the second strongest Noldor, Galadriel. Gil-Galad, meanwhile, is also a High King of the Noldor and Elendil is a Numenorean King. Sauron took on both these guys at once.
Furthermore, Gothmog actually didn't defeat either Fingon or Feanor on his own.
Against Fingon he had the help of a different Balrog, "At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven."
Against Feanor he had the help of a group of Balrogs and an army of Orcs...
From HoME 11: TWotJ:
"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host, and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Feanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Soon he stood alone; but long he fought on, and laughed undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds. But at the last Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, smote him to the ground, and there he would have perished, but Maidros and three other of his sons in that moment came up with force to his aid, and the Balrogs fled back to Angband."
Uh, what? Sauron was killed taking on the High King of the Noldor and King of the Numenorians at the same time... How is that less impressive than losing to a Noldor lord?
Uh, yes he was. Do I need to post the quote again?
"But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildurien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War."
When Melkor wasn't around Sauron was in charge of the war! In other words, he was bossing Gothmog around.
He is also called "the chief servant of Morgoth"...
So yeah, Sauron was second in command.
Yeah, half of those Gothmog wasn't even in charge of. He didn't lead Dagor-nuin-Giliath at the beginning only at the end did he emerge. In the Nírnaeth Arnoediad (this is also the Battle of Unumbered Tears BTW), Gothmog is only one of the leaders. By contrast, for a short time, Sauron ran the entire war.
Ultimately though, I don't even get what the point of bringing this up is. That Gothmog led numerous battles doesn't mean he outranked or was even equal with Sauron. To go with you war leader-politician analogy, Gothmog may be the general but Sauron is the god damn vice president. When the president (Morgoth) isn't around the VP is in charge.
No they don't. He didn't kill either Fingon or Feanor on his own.
You're right. Sauron killed a High Elven High King and a Numenorian King. A bit more impressive.
Sadly, Sauron is mentioned several times to be Morgoth's greatest servant (I even posted two) and is quite clearly his second in command.
Last edited by ares834 on Dec 26th, 2013 at 04:38 AM
Well at least you dropped the silly idea of Dragons being above balrogs or gothmog... Moving on to this..
The quotes you continue to post don't change what I'm saying at all. I've been very clear that Sauron is powerful but more like a politician/magician... Gothmog is the badass general in command. This is a vs fight.. not a battle of cunning and treachery. All the quotes you cited.. don't talk about his battle prowess or him leading armies or being the fierciest in battle... NOTHING like that. They even use words like cunning... servant...not what I said above. Sauron was most certainly better at practicing black magic.. and following the ways of Melkor and learning under him. I agree totally. But that doesn't make him the best on the battle field. That was left up to Gothmog. Which is the point here...
There wasn't a battle Sauron lead while Gothmog was around. By leading I mean.. leading the troops into battle and being on the front lines. In the Sil... the best are in the front lines... Sauron was never there when bid daddy Gothmog was around. That spot was reserved for the best of battle.. the high captain and General Gothmog. If this isn't true.. cite the battles Sauron physcially lead while gothmog was present. Good luck with that. I don't mean lead by being behind the scenes telllng them to go out and fight. The quote you cited just reinforces the idea that Sauron was second in command of his evil empire because he was the most learned in the ways of Melkor and black magic.. not the best in battle.. which is what we're talking about here.
This is pretty easy when it comes down to the basics.. and there is just no getting aroudn these facts....
1. Gothmog was the general.. he was put in charge of leading the armies into battle and protecting Melkor. You put the best in battle in charge and that was Gothmog NOT sauron when they were both around.
2. Gothmog has the better battle feats.. by a good margin. He's killed better people and it's nto even close. I can't even believe you listed the Numenorean King and Noldor king in the same breath with Feanor... Fingon or Etch.. that is a laughable stance. Please cite the battle feats of Gil-Galad and Elendil that can compare to the people I listed. They aren't even close. Elven King of the later ages weren't nearly as impressive or as powerful as the early ones. Their battle feats aren't even close. Gothmog killed the much better foes.
Also, please don't go on and on about how Gothmog killed them with help... THIS IS A BATTLE FIELD. There is stuff going on all around you. You act like Gothmog is the only person who had an army and help. Gothmog was also having to do battle with heaven and elves and god knows what all as well. So that all even out. That is part of the battle and minding your surroundings. Gothmog killed them and superior people at that.
3. Sauron was killed by much weaker foe than Gothmog was killed by. So Sauron was killed by a man... Gothmog by an high elven king who did so when he was about to die at th ehands of Gothmog.
Sauron is the most learned in the ways of Melkor and the most powerful Maia.. I agree with this. But Gothmog is the most powerful in battle between the two. This is evident in the position of battle and in their battle feats. Gothmog is the Hulk and Sauron Iron Man.... powerful but more wise and smart that the battle beast Hulk is.
Ares, solid post. Refresh me, where's the lightning feat from again?
Also, Sauron before the end of the Second Age could change form at will and is mentioned in the Silmarillion explicitly as the mightiest of the Maiar to follow Melkor in his evil.
Only that his battle feats don't measure up to Gothmog... nor was he leading any armies when Gothmog was around. By feats and battle status Gothmog is superior.. as far as sorcery or learning of the ways of Melkor obviously sauron is superior. However, this is a battle not a test of cunning or manipulation. Gothmog wins
That Gothmog spent the majority of his time leading Morgoth's armies on the frontlines while Sauron stayed at home is pretty damning evidence in my mind who was the stronger fighter. Sauron is certainly the most cunning and insidious of Morgoth's servants, but he'd still get his ass beat in a 1v1.
__________________
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Janus is built for one purpose: to destroy the world of Men.
__________________
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Silmarillion. It's when he is corrupting the people of Numenor.
Except, Gothmog doesn't have better feats. He had help every time he fought an Elven king. Sauron, however, didn't and yet he still defeated them.
Uh, Gil-Galad is a First Age elf and would even have been High King of the Noldor in the First Age... Also, please cite battle feats for both Ecthelion and Fingon that put them well beyond the likes of Gil-Galad. As it is, I see no reason to assume Gil-Galad is vastly inferior to Fingon and no reason at all to assume he is inferior to Ecthelion.
Uh, no. When he struck down Feanor, Feanor "stood alone; but long he fought on". As for Fingon, he "stood alone with his guard dead about him". In both cases it was Feanor and Fingon that Gothmog fought and no other.
Sauron, meanwhile, defeated Finrod on his own and killed Elendil and Gil-Galad simultaneously.
Sauron wasn't killed by a man. He was killed by a Noldor King and a Numenorian King. Both of whom were killed while they killed Sauron. (Isildur merely cut the ring of his corpse.)
Beyond that, the heroes of men are as great of warriors as the elven lords. Beren had the advantage over one of the Sons of Feanor and Tuor is implied to be an even more powerful warrior than Ecthelion (although this was in a very early version of the stories). And guys like Hurin and Turin are even better warriors.
Morogth also sat in his tower throughout the war. Yet, he is obviously superior to the likes of Gothmog (at least throughout the vast majority of it). So I'm unsure of how Sauron hardly ever leading battles (he does lead one that I am aware of) is really damning evidence in anyway. Beyond tha Sauron is mentioned several times to be "the greatest" and "the most terrible" of Morogth's servants. Seems pretty clear that Sauron is more powerful than Gothmog.
Last edited by ares834 on Dec 26th, 2013 at 07:02 PM
Hurin killed like 70 guys while utterly surrounded before being captured, IIRC. First and Second age Heroes of Men were very mighty.
Sauron was noted to have been developing monster mooks for the legions of Melkor and correct me if I'm wrong but contested with Luthien's magic, only to be overcome by Huan who could not be defeated except as ordained by prophecy.
Sauron will be unaffected by any spear, axe or even an ugly grin of Gothmog. Gothmog is a mortal that serves the master, one of the masters is Sauron which is part of the prime evil
Sauron wipes out creaters in droves in LOTR
Gandolf> Gothmog
Sauron>Gandolf
Sauron>Gandolf>Gothmog
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None of this makes any sense. And Morgoth got his foot lopped off by an Elven sword, so it's not like weapons can't hurt Ainur.
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Doesn't work that way Ares.. I asked for feats of Sauron kills you keep going on and on about and you turn around and ask me for feats. Sorry bud.. I'm still waiting on the feats of the people you listed.. I understand they don't have hardly any, and certainly none that can compete with the people I listed.. but that doesn't mean you can simply avoid the question
I'm curious... YOu don't think Elves and men were more powerful in the ages prior? It seems rather clear to me that both were more powerful and had more feats in the earlier ages.
So... you agree that Feanor is clearly superior to anybody Sauron has beaten.. So Gothmog has the best kill of either of the two. His other two killings I believe are clearly better than anybody listed but we'll get into that when you post the feats of the 2 I'm asking about. We also know Gothmog was the one leading the charge while Sauron stayed behind lock doors. If he was more powerful and formidable than gothmog he would be leading the charge.. only he wasn't. Gothmog was.
So we have better feats for Gothmog... better standing in battle than Sauron.. and we have one dying by a lesser foe.. Do you honestly believe Isildur is on the same level as Etch is? They aren't even close. Gothmog killed him as well.. Sauron didn't kill Isildur.. another big difference.
Nobody is disputing that Sauron is more learned in the ways of Melkor and maybe even the better practioner of Black Magic and the dark arts. Shit he's even a better politician and more cunning than Gothmog... but he's certainly not more formidable and better in a vs. matchup. Gothmog is a warrior.. Sauron isn't. It's really that simple.
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