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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Episode I, II & III » The TRUE tragedy of Darth Vader


The TRUE tragedy of Darth Vader
Started by: queeq

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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

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The TRUE tragedy of Darth Vader

Despite my feelings about the PT (ROTS made up for the other two), my greatest disappointment lately lies with the character of Darth Vader as we knew it from the OT. He was iconic. So iconic that the set fell very quiet during filming of ROTS when Hayden entered donned in the Vader suit. He was the ultimate bad guy, the one-not-to-be-messed-with (instead of the chosen one). He became a true icon that we all loved, menacing creature with an unexpected side to him.

But what has the PT done to our beloved Darth Vader? This is what kinda pains me. It turned him into a lame wanna-be cripple that can hardly fight... He even has trouble beating a bloody padawan learner that had a couple of months of training. Is this the greatest Jedi that ever lived?

Before the PT, before the Dark Times, we had no idea about Jedi training or how they're supposed to fight. GL gave us all of his original ideas and left usin the OT with a couple of lamo's. Poor pathetic wanna-be Jedi. The Jedi we always wanted to be as kids were OT OB1 and Luke, heck even Vader.
GL explains it all that Vader's a cripple and OB1's an old man. I find no explanation for the sudden change. Dooku looks at least as old as OB1 and is super agile with flips and salto's, Yoda's hopping and jumping about like a twelve year old (despite his age of 800+, some 25 years before his death of old age).
OB1 in the OT is only 60 old or something but now he moves like a stiff old man. And Anakin, heck I'd expect him to master his electronic body as the supertechno kid he always was, to become agile and quick. But none of that.... the PT made our hero's of look pathetic.

For me, the great and menacing Darth Vader has been reduced by the PT as a somewhat cripple old bastard that can do a fairly good Force choke... the rest is gone of our icon. That for me is the true "Tragedy of Darth Vader", as GL lovingly calls his now six-part saga.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 12:40 PM
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overlord
OD'd

Registered: Jun 2005
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I totally agree with this analysis.

And it appalls me that people defend what the PT did to his character, not to mention the people who immediately assume that OT Vader is a pussy too who could even be beaten by a young Anakin.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 01:49 PM
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FistOfThe North
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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: United States, Earth


 

Well you have to keep in mind that figuratively & literally speaking, he wasn't the 2nd most powerful being in the entire Galaxy during the Dark times for no reason. He's was still a superb pilot even as Vader. He was still gallant. Going to the battlefront to face the enemy. "ANH", B. of Yavin & "ESB" surface attack. He killed Obi Wan in "ANH" captured Han defeated Luke in "ESB". He was fast enough to blocked Hans multiple blaster shots with his hands just to pull the blaster away, only to tell Han that "He would be honored", if he would join them. As if nothing happened.

The PT hasn't changed my view of Vader. It just told me of Anakin's story before he was Vader. Even after watching the PT. OT Vader is still does it for me.

IMO, OT Vader is still the cool & menacing figure. I've never looked as Vader as a helpless handicap. But a powerful Imperial Commander who has great cunning, demands respect and strikes gut wrenching, throat swallowing fear even among imperials.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 02:21 PM
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Ushgarak
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Obi-Wan's status in the OT is really down to his powers having declined; the older force users in the PT were all still in tiptop condition.

Obi-Wan was old and faded; Dooku was old but still sharp.

I don't really see why this reduces our view of Vader at all. He doesn't have to have Superman powers to be the menacing figure that he is.


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 23rd, 2005 at 04:03 PM

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 02:44 PM
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~JP~
yeah baby

Registered: May 2004
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Yep, I got to agree with Ush there. Simply becuase the PT has made Vader tragic doesnt make him less menacing for me.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 03:31 PM
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overlord
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I wish others would hold the same opinion.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 03:35 PM
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BAILY
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Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Canada


 

I always have and always believed Vader was a pansy character... so ROTS didnt change much for me...


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 03:38 PM
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overlord
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Registered: Jun 2005
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Yeah, probably because he dies in ROTJ you thought that, didn't you?
As for ANH and ESB, he is a pretty geniously written character.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 03:51 PM
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Council#13
The Omega Male

Registered: Jul 2005
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uh oh another moderator in the star wars section!


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 04:35 PM
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BAILY
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Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Canada


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, probably because he dies in ROTJ you thought that, didn't you?
As for ANH and ESB, he is a pretty geniously written character.


I never thought Vader was a great character... and not because of what you just said... he is ok... but not the greatest....


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:19 PM
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((The_Anomaly))
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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada


 

there is truth to this, the OT saber duels are quite honestly pathetic. with the PT duels being amazing. yes vader is a cripple and whatnot. but hes more force user in the OT, hes more saber master in the PT.

this doesn't really change how i view vader in the OT though, it simply adds to showing us how much anakin gave up by turning to the dakside in the PT.

the vader in the OT is still menacing (oddly enough, especially in ANH)

hes just a poor saber duelist relying on raw power and sheer force to in essence "chop down" whoever he might be fighting. the agile quick powerful days of Anakin's saber mastery are gone in the OT and make way for a powerhouse, he is mostly machine after all.

although i really believe that lucas should redo and add parts to the OT duels with CG to make this problem go away and remake the OT duels, especially the ANH duel. and the Obi was old excuse is just getting well...old, no matter how much BS people can try to come up with to explain that duel makes no difference, Dooku was older then Obi and he Pwned jedi like bitches. hes not "faded" he'd been heavily practicing his force abilities and connection to the force via. Qui-gon. he should have technically been more powerful then when he fought Anakin on Mustafar.

at any rate some CG magic is needed in the OT duels to lengthen and make then faster and better. (im not suggesting getting rid of the footage we already have, just adding to it)


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:22 PM
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BAILY
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Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Canada


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
[B]the vader in the OT is still menacing (oddly enough, especially in ANH)



I agree smile But the other two movies, he is just a weak villain


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:35 PM
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Ermac_Master
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Weak?! What the f**k?


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:40 PM
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beedubaya
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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by BAILY
I agree smile But the other two movies, he is just a weak villain


Thats because in the other two movies (before the prequel trilogy was released), we begin to see the Empreror as the true villian and start to understand a bit more about the tragedy of Vader.

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:44 PM
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Ushgarak
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"hes not "faded" he'd been heavily practicing his force abilities and connection to the force via. Qui-gon"

Untrue.

"Your powers are weak, old man."

Information given to the audience. Obi-Wan himself doesn't think he is up to it any more, either.


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"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:44 PM
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reborn_213
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Lucas just needed to sell the PT with eye candy, thats all he really had left. Then of course he came up with all these lame excuses as for why the OT fights looked the way they did. Vader would beat the crap out of anyone, they just didn't have the effects back then, plus, thats when he was focused more on the story then the speedy boom flippy effects. If they had made the episodes in chronological order, then people would be asking why the "fully trained" Jedi in TPM-ROTS fought so lame. It's all about the technology, think no less of Vader, or Luke, or any OT character, Vader and Luke would still beat the crap out of the PT Jedi.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:47 PM
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overlord
OD'd

Registered: Jun 2005
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Yeah, they have no clue to Star Wars at all.

Anomaly, you may use your puntuation buttons on your keyboard (assuming it is a basic keyboard) and have you ever considered that fighting as fast as you can (as seen in ataru) is not always the most effective way of fighting?
Darth Vader perfected his skills over the decades of time he had to study under Sidious, he completed his training and perfected his way of fighting.
Although it may not always seem like it, Vader has indeed improved whilst coming from apprentice to master duellist.

If you look at Ataru practiced by Yoda and Qui-Gon, you can see that as dangerous as it is, it still has its drawbacks like both participants tiring out fast and Qui-Gon's defeat by the hands of Maul.
Going as fast as you can doesn't always mean that it is the most effective.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:47 PM
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Ushgarak
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Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

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!

Heck no, Vader was WAY worse in the OT than before. His sabre fighting has not improved- he's too slow and wild (just as indisciplined as before, too, but now without the reflexes to compensate).

No, the OT duellists are all worse. This is from GL- we see true sabre fighting in the PT era only.


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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:50 PM
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reborn_213
Scruffy Nerf Herder

Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Picking up some power converters.


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, they have no clue to Star Wars at all.

Anomaly, you may use your puntuation buttons on your keyboard (assuming it is a basic keyboard) and have you ever considered that fighting as fast as you can (as seen in ataru) is not always the most effective way of fighting?
Darth Vader perfected his skills over the decades of time he had to study under Sidious, he completed his training and perfected his way of fighting.
Although it may not always seem like it, Vader has indeed improved whilst coming from apprentice to master duellist.

If you look at Ataru practiced by Yoda and Qui-Gon, you can see that as dangerous as it is, it still has its drawbacks like both participants tiring out fast and Qui-Gon's defeat by the hands of Maul.
Going as fast as you can doesn't always mean that it is the most effective.


Another valid point that I had left out.


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:51 PM
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reborn_213
Scruffy Nerf Herder

Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Picking up some power converters.


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
!

Heck no, Vader was WAY worse in the OT than before. His sabre fighting has not improved- he's too slow and wild (just as indisciplined as before, too, but now without the reflexes to compensate).

No, the OT duellists are all worse. This is from GL- we see true sabre fighting in the PT era only.



Yeah, remember the half-assed crappy cover ups I mentioned?


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Old Post Dec 23rd, 2005 05:52 PM
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