It's a common fact that Star Wars episodes 1-3 were not perfect, and far from it in my opinion. I think it was a complete waste to kill off Darth Maul in the first movie. I think it would have made a much more compelling story if he survived, and took Count Dooku's place for episodes 2, and 3. He would have become more powerful as the movies progressed, and the anger that Obi Wan had towards him for killing his master would be a great story element. A battle in episode 3 with a mature Sith Lord Maul vs Obi Wan and/or Anakin would have been amazing to see, and we would have got to see a lot more of the fan fave Maul. I think it'd be sick to see where his potential would have taken him he was very young, and obviously too cocky for his own good in episode 1. He was just as young as Obi Wan, and look how far Obi Wan progressed through the movies.
I think the whole PT should have been set in or just before the Clone Wars. All three movies should have been about ROTS IMHO. I don't really care who the Sith was, as long as it was a decently worked out character. Maul had the looks and the screentime... Dooku was rushed and underdeveloped.
Well, 16 years after the OT, it certainly wasn't rushed. lol
It's just that the OT is such a classic in it's own right, that no matter what you get 20 years later, it almost certainly won't live up to the originals. I grew up with the PT so I have my own love for it.
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull suffered the same problem. It's really not a bad film, but it was 19 years....the anticipation is so high that it almost never satisifies.
Yeah, but I feel like Lucas had the general idea down a long time ago, but then rushed everything else. He probably just figured he could slap Star Wars as a title to any thing he made, and would make bookoo cash off of it.
The same problem would then be.... I hate to say it.... Lucas.
Look at what he (re)created in the past 12 years:
- PT
- Clone Wars
- KOTC
Now... we know a lot of teh actors in the PT know how to act well, we know ILM can make awesome stuff, Spielberg has made a lot of good films in those 12 years... yet, everything Lucas gets his hands on seems to turn into some bleak, mushy crap... And seeing the trailer for CW3... it's not improving.
lol KOTC. David Koepp wrote it, Speilberg Directed it. Lucas ruined it. Yep. lol
It was Steven's idea to go CGI heavy because he wanted to shoot the film closer to his family, rather than go to the actual locations. Recently Shia called out his disappointment on the film, and he called out Speilberg for it, not Lucas.
I agree that Steven has done some good stuff in the past 12 years, but he also dropped the bomb on some films as well that Lucas had no part of. To name a few:
War of the Worlds "Sucked"
AI "Not Great"
Minority Report "I couldn't even finish it"
Oh SMX much as I love you I cant get behind your love for Lucas. While he gave us the OT he also butchered the PT. I like those movies but they could have been SO much better had he not had as much input as he did. Especially ROTS which was rushed like no other, The seduction of Anakin by Palpatine took place in mere days when in fact it took a whole lot longer than that if you go by the book (which Lucas approved). The way it was done in the movie was almost laughable.
I completely agree that the PT could have been better. Absolutely.
I've admitted many times that as much as I love ROTS, there are major, major things that I would have taken in a different direction to better suit the storyline and not feel forced. No doubts there. I love the PT to death, but yes, they aren't perfect.
What annoys me though is blaming him for absoluley everything. A director is not responsible for "bad acting." If the "acting" is bad, it's the "actor's" fault. Doesn't matter if they did a great job in another film, sometimes their performances lack in others, and it's their fault.
Ewan McGregor's acting was fantastic, and so was Ian McDiarmid's. Are we praising and giving Lucas credit for that? Nope! Hayden and Natalie's acting wasn't good. Are we blaming Lucas for that? Yep! See my drift?
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull: The movie was sub par compared to the original 3....so who do we blame....Lucas. Now, think of this. Say KOTCS turned out to be the best of the 4 films....would everyone have been praising Lucas and putting him on a pedestal? No. Instead, they would be praising Steven Speilberg.
It's a failure before it even begins. If it sucks, it will be Geroge's fault. If it's good "Well, GL didn't direct it, Steven did, so the movie was good because Steven directed it."
If it's bad "Lucas had it hands on it, so it sucked."
We can blame Lucas for CGI, we can blame him for awkward dialogue in some areas, we can blame him for plot points.....but we can't blame him for acting, and he sure can't be blamed for Indiana Jones 4.
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I like George.
Last edited by Sith Master X on Aug 17th, 2010 at 04:22 PM
It's not so simple as you put it, SMX. Lucas is a very powerful man on all of these productions. And as we know from the SPidey movies: With great power, comes great responsibility. So he's very very responsibles, especially since he has the power to call the shots, to veto, to change direction. And we know he did.
1. We know he did the PT all on his own, he surrounded himself with a lot of yes-men (we can see that clearly in the TPM documentary and even read about it the The Making of TPM book). Also, the output of the PT and its mediocrity is no one else responsibilty other than Lucas'. Yes, McGregor acted great in ROTS, but not so great in TPM and getting there in AOTC. McDiarmid is an exception, he's always great in SW. But all in all, the quailty of the PT is solely the responsibility of Lucas.
2. KOTC. It was Lucas that determines the angle/topic of the Indiana Jones movies, it was Lucas that ditched the clearly superior Frank Darabont script because he wanted it his own way. I don't think CGI ruined KOTC, it's the story and its development, the characters and yeah, prolly the aliens too... The choice for this approach (and not the Darabont-approach which was approved by Spielberg and Ford) was Lucas'. Yes, they all agreed so they do share the blame. But I cannot fail to see the motor of Lucas behind it.
3. CW.
Lucas said after finishing ROTS that the Skywalker story was over. That the rest of the franchise would focus on other stories and characters in the SW universe. Filoni seemd to want to do something else, yet Lucas changed his mind again and made CW again almost exlcusively aboutr Anaking and OB1. Milking his franchise dry, making lame and predictable. Again... Lucas is to blame.
The guy has a major empire, is stinking rich, has all the power in the world. We can hold him responsible, we don't have to feel sorry for him and he prolly doesn't care what we say anyway.
Ah but see I think in those two things we can. I mean theres ALOT of dialog in the PT thats so hideous there isnt an actor or actress alive that could make it sound natural and acceptable. And THAT my friend IS Lucas's fault.
1st: Lucas surrounded himself with “yes men” because he wanted the movie done his way. Good for him, because any director on this planet wants to see his vision come to life without fighting with other members of the crew. Star Wars belongs to Lucas, and he wants it done according to his vision. After the less than enthralling “Return of the Jedi” I can’t blame Lucas for wanting to make sure he gets his way.
2nd: Acting. I’ve worked with plenty of actors myself over the past 4 years. Trust me when I tell you that bad acting hurts your dialogue. Yes, it helps to have good dialogue as well which can make it easier for the actors, but just watch Ewan’s delivery of “Noooo” from Episode 1, and James Earl Jones from Episode III….and you’ll see what a difference a line can make depending on the delivery. Obi-Wan’s “noooooo” is one of those stand out moments in Episode I. James Earl Jones’ delivery is one of the disgraced moments of III where everyone laughs and makes fun of it. Yet, it’s the same exact line.
Good actors can do good things with awkward dialogue. Watch a Shakespearian play/movie to see what I mean. I doesn’t get more awkward for an actor than that.
3rd. KOTCS. Yes, Frank Darabount made Shawshank and Green Mile. Amazing films. There’s no guaranteeing that he would have made INDY 4 superb. Just watch “The Mist” and you’ll know what I’m talking about. Lol Aliens did not ruin this movie, considering that the first movie had ghost that went around melting people’s faces off. That’s a tad more cheesy than Aliens in my book, but again, that’s just me.
By the way....has anyone even read Frank Darabount's "Indiana Jones and the City of Gods?"
Lucas didn't ditch the entire script, he had it reworked, and had some of the story reworked as well, and thank god. The beginning features Indiana Jones and Yuri riding into a cafe and talking about how they love cheeseburgers and ketchup, which definitely sounds more exciting to me than going back to the landmark warehouse from Raiders.
Now wait a minute JEJ is SO not a crappy actor. The reason his Nooooo in ROTS didnt work is because it was a dumbass line at that point in the film plain and simple. That was beyond stupid. And Lucas is the one who wrote that dumbass line.
I think JEJ is a great actor, I just don't think that was the best he could have delivered that line.
Ewan rocked it in Episode I.
"What about the other Jedi spread across the galaxy?" Fine line, Hayden butchered it. Made the line look awful. Those aren't lines that a decent actor are incapable of delivering.
Now.....the one thing I will "not" let Lucas off the hook for, and I'll be first to admit that this is as attrocious as dialouge can get:
"You're so beautiful.....It's because I'm so in love....No, no, it's because I'm so in love with you."
Yes, as a writer myself, that is TERRIBLE. But not all of the writing in the prequel trilogy was bad. I think we put more emphasis on the few times it didn't work, rather than all the times it did.
The writing has never been extremely polished, and GL even admits that. But it's a Star Wars movie, and the OT didn't have the greatest dialogue either.
It was awful. I remember slumping down in my seat when I first heard that in theater. I was like, "ok, now that really was bad."
Other things I can really forgive.
But this has been a fun debate. Probably the most discussion I've had on these forums in a while. lol Whatever would this place be like without you and Queeq?
I read the Darabont script. It wasn't perfect but the main story arc had much more to it than KOTCS. And it didn't have Mutt.... a major improvement.
And Lucas sure is to blame about the acting performances. Just check out the few snippets in how he directed the PT. When he was doing the OT he didn't have much of an idea how it should be played so the actors figured out a lot by themselves. If you see the Making Of shots, he is really micromanaging the delivery of lines... where to stress on certain words. Now, I know that doesn't give actors a lot of freedom to explore, you just do as the man wants. You don't get the best of your actors simply because he doesn't ask them to give them their best.
And I know from experience that it's best to (at least fairly frequently) to let actors show you what they can do with their lines. It means utilising their range. I doubt Lucas ever did that.
I think McGregor's performance over all three films is proof of that micromanagement style: he kinda sucks in TPM (while he was great in many other films up to that point), he got a bit better in AOTC (despite the awful giggle in that elevator with Anakin) and he was close to being up to par in ROTS.... It took him six years and two movies to find a way out of Lucas' micromanagement style of acting.
Now, there are more directors who do this kind of micromanagement... but they do it because they prolly have been actors themselves and they know what they're talking about.
I had really wished Maul had stuck around till episode III and then have anakin kill him. Dooku was not needed you had Maul they could of done pretty much the same thing.
Instead of Obi-wan slicing maul in half, maul should of kicked both sabres down the shaft but then you could have obiwan flip over maul and force kick him into the shaft then show Maul slow himself with the force and land then leave.
Aug 14th, 2010 05:56 PM
