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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Episode I, II & III » THE FORCE AWAKENS - discussion with SPOILERS!!!


THE FORCE AWAKENS - discussion with SPOILERS!!!
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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

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THE FORCE AWAKENS - discussion with SPOILERS!!!

Okay guys, let's talk. What did ya think?

What did you like, what didn't you like? etc. SPOILERS ARE WELCOME!!!






My review:

I have to watch it again, but I am moderately positive. It's not ESB but it certainly is no PT either. I'd rank it along the lines of ROTJ/ROTS. So shared third place I think. At this moment. I have to see it again a couple of times to really make up my mind.

First some 'baddish' news. The plot is NOT very original and goes along the same lines as ANH and ESB merged into one.

1. Important data put in droid, sent off to desert planet
2. Stormtroopers go down to find the droid
3. Droid gets found by local desert dweller (Rey) - stormtroopers attack
4. Rey and droid flee planet with Millennium Falcon and outrun the First Order spaceships
5. They meet old man/mentor, this time Han Solo
6. Important data returned to Resistance
7. Big planetoid weapon that can destroy several planets in one go.
8. Plans are made to destroy planet/weapon
9. Solo, Rey and Finn go down to knock out shield of the planet, while fleet attacks it.

Then the other plot line
1. Dark villain destroys village, captures and tortures important pilot
2. Dark villain is family member of major character
3. Dark villain has mysterious old master who appears als hologram
4. He has a military sidekick: a Grand Moff Tarkin, admiral Piett character - i.e. Hux
5. Major beloved character gets killed by villain, as witnessed by his friends (Solo/OB1).

etc etc.

Sound familiar? Yes, very...

However... the new characters are great. Rey is not Luke. Finn is not Solo. Poe Dameron is a nice and fresh character. Kylo Ren is a bit of an emo, but a powerful one and that makes him quite unpredictable, which is good IMHO. A guy we can enjoy for two more movies at least.

So even though this movie checks all the OT boxes in an almost mechanical way, it certainly FEELS different. Mostly because the Solo storyline is so good and Ford excels here, that he kind of distracts from the generic storyline.

And I think it sets up a bigger story, that could go in a very different direction.


What I didn't like was this:
1. the constant nods/copies of OT moments. Abrams should have done like two in the first half hour and be done with it. There's a whole list. It starts with Finn in the Millennium gun turret. I could buy that, we're in the beginning. It was set up in the TIE fighter, so okay.

But then the chessboard, the pirate hive, the trash compactor line by Ford... well, there are so many that it started to bother me.

2. The old droids
I felt the 3PO and R2 scenes we're a bit obsolete. What's the point of the red arm? 3PO makes a serious point of it, but it 's completely irrelevant. And then there's R2, totally depressed because Luke is missing that he doesn't have power... I thought: WTF???? He's a machine! The neurotic 3PO is as far as you can push this, I think. But R2 as a depressed droid???? Come on, that only works in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

And why is he under a sheet? If he doesn't work, toss him out.
And why does R2 suddenly come to life? What triggered that? Nah, it's not as bad as a flying R2, but it gets pretty close in demonstrating that the days of the OT droids are over.
BB8 is great btw.

3. Ani's lightsaber
I didn't quite buy the whole lightsaber-is-calling-you bit. That's a kind of mystical SW lore that I have never heard of. I mean, I've lost count on how many lightsabers were lost in the saga so far. And the Force, the energy field created by all LIVING things, connected to a dead, metal object... I mean, that's...errrr.... WEIRD!

This is where is got a little funny.

4. The lightsaber fight
My biggest problem is probably the fight between Rey and Kylo. I just don't buy that she can just beat him with a little tuning into the Force. I mean, it took Luke years of meditation and a couple of months of intense training to master the Force a bit, yet he never really stood a chance against Vader in the Cloud City fight. And here Rey (totally Untrained) beats a pretty well trained Kylo Ren... come on. SW shouldn't continue to break its own rules.

The way the Finn fight went, that was more credible for how the Rey fight should have been.

What I liked was the mind battle between Rey and Kylo. That to me was credible because she mastered a little thing: to block her mind from Kylo. (Oh and BTW, since when can Force users read data from minds? I thought they could only sense emotions, moods and stuff like that? Hmm... this was something of debate in the past years at least)

When she started to use the Jedi mind trick I wondered: how the heck does she know a) THAT a Force user can do that and b) how to do that? So here it started to tilt a bit, although the humour kinda saved the scene.

5. Final 'space' battle
Looked great. I have no complaints about Abrams visceral style. But I did feel this battle came off a a bit easy. They mention that there are only a few fighters left, but the kind of despair that they might not pull it off (like in the ANH trench battle) was lacking. And then Poe just flew in and blew the place up... It felt very very easy...


So there. Let me know what you guys think!


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Last edited by queeq on Dec 17th, 2015 at 08:43 AM

Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 08:35 AM
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Bardock42
Junior Member

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves


 

First, I probably wouldn't put it above ANH and ESB, but from my first viewing I think it cracked the top 3 for me. I will see it again on tuesday.

I didn't mind that the plot was very similar to the OT (basically a bit of a mix up of ANH and some ESB), I think it put a good spin on it and probably exposes new audiences to what I loved about Star Wars when I was a kid. It's a bit like an in-universe reboot almost, but very well done I think.

I agree with you that the new characters were amazing, I'm completely invested in all of them already. Love Rey and Finn particularly. They have fantastic chemistry. In fact the most awkward part for me was probably one of the longer dialogues between Han and Leia...also because it was one of the "exposition" parts, but not a big deal over all.

I agree that the 3PO and R2 parts weren't necessary, but there wasn't very much of it, and it did add some of the nostalgia factor.

Something I didn't like, it felt like the "good guys" were a bit to eager to hurt the stormtroopers. In particular the haha-lets crush her in the garbage compressor scene was distasteful.




Like I said in the other thread, the lightsaber fight is probably my favourite part. It delivered on everything I wished for. I'll just repost what I said in the other thread:

I actually thought the Lightsaber fight was fantastic. It was exactly what I wanted after the insane, over the top, gymnastic-like duels in the PT. It seemed like a realistic fight rather than a choreography put on to look the most flashy.

As for Rey ultimately overtaking Kylo Ren, I also think that makes sense. I never really liked the idea of Jedi being unstoppable forces, and I really appreciated how The Force Awakens went back to a more reasonable power level (in parts, some of the force aspects seemed extremely powerful, I guess we'll see how it goes). At any rate, I think Jedi should be more in the vein of a James Bond with slight magical abilities, rather than a full blown Gandalf, as the PT sort of made them, and definitely the cartoons.

Kylo being wounded, perhaps very much so, and already having gone up against Finn beforehand should also give Rey a huge advantage.

It's not like Rey or Finn are novices at fighting, either. Finn is a highly trained storm trooper (potentially also partly trained in close quarter weapons combat, as the other Stormtrooper had a weapon of that kind). And Rey is very adept in staff fighting (which she also seems to incorporate in her style of saber fighting), as well as potentially even more powerful thank Kylo in the force, she definitely has amazing reflexes which should help with duelling a lot.

And Kylo Ren likely didn't do a ridiculous amount of lightsaber training himself. a) there are no Jedi to duel so why really bother b) he apparently only started later in his life to train with Luke as well, so he probably wasn't trained in swordsmanship from a young age.

So on the whole, I was extremely happy with the direction of the duel, and I hope they keep it up. Obviously it can become a bit more skilled and perhaps flashy in some ways, but I do not want to go back to Yoda v. Dooku....that was a pile of garbage of epic proportions.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 12:16 PM
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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

To me, I think Harrison Ford makes this movie stand out. He is truly great. Id didn't mind the 'long' dialogues... to me it wasn't just exposition. It was also a lot of regret and pain... Two people with a long history we know hardly anything about.

This is what I replied to you about the lightsaber fight in the other thread. There in spoiler tags, here without:


It comes down to two things: skill with the lightsaber and skill in using the Force.

Your assumption that Kylo didn't have much training is highly questionable, at least. The movie tells us he trained with Luke along with a number of others until he destroyed the new Jedi order. I'm pretty sure Luke had them training with the sabre, the weapon of a Jedi Knight. At least, that's an assumption that makes more sense than Kylo not having practised much.

The other is skill with the Force. Kylo was trained both by Luke and Snoke. So he should be a lot more advanced. I'd have preferred the earthquake to come between Kylo and Rey before he slaughtered her. At least then, for protection she has reason to go into training. Now, she can already beat the universe's new Darth Vader. To me, not a strong point.

You make a good point about her being able to fight with a stick. But still... the whole idea that a Jedi can see a blow coming (see things before they happen) and lightsaber fighting therefore is a skill by itself is not directly countered by skill in stick fighting.

Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with you that the fight itself was great in choreography. It was no longer the emotionless ballet and twirling stuff from the PT but an actual fight, with both skill and grit.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 12:55 PM
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Bardock42
Junior Member

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves


 

I agree that Han was great, I guess this one scene just made me cringe, I'll see if I feel the same way the second time around.

Regarding the lightsaber, I think beyond the two things you said it also comes down to a third, the extend of the handicap that Kylo Ren had in the fight. And in my opinion that could be immense. I am not exactly sure but I think he was show with Chewbaccas crossbow, a weapon whose immense power has been shown multiple times in the movie, as far as we know it may have taken most of his concentration and force to keep himself together and alive (even if it was just a normal blaster it could be a very devastating wound). Perhaps less important but still a factor may also be his emotional state, he was obviously very conflicted about his father, an Rey reading his great fear and then show immense adeptness at the force must have had some mental impact on him.


Lightsaber Skill

Regarding Kylo Ren, I do agree with you that he is surely skilled at lightsaber combat, I did not mean to deny it. What I'm trying to say is that from my reading he probably doesn't have comparable training in lightsaber combat as people like Obi Wan or Darth Vader had, for a couple of reasons.

And the other side is that there's no reason not to assume that Rey and Finn are very good at close combat weapons. Your point about Jedi being able to see a blow coming, that's sort of why I think it makes sense that Rey is very good at this kind of combat. She has the reflexes of a skilled pilot, so it's perfectly possible that she has at least rudimentary predictive powers already.

Force Skill:

Generally I can see why Rey's adeptness in the force and her quick learning seems perhaps too quick. But I don't think it factors as much into this fight.

For one Jedi usually don't just casually use the force in their fights, it seems like duelling generally takes most of their attention away, and just in some cases we can see a force push, or telekinetic bombardment, and most of the time they stop with the combat to perform these things.

And secondly Kylo's aforementioned preoccupation with his wounds, it may make a lot of sense that he is unable to perform extreme feats of force use (like when he paralysed Rey before) in the situation of the fight.

I don't know, on the whole I think there is just a lot of reasons to explain why the fight went the way it went without considering Kylo weak, or assuming that in a more equal meet up (i.e. Kylo not bleeding to death) Rey or Finn would have any sort of chance.


Oh, another thing I didn't like. The New Republic getting destroyed, and well, we didn't have any reason to care for them, but the thing is, the resistance didn't seem to care even one bit either. Like there was almost no emotional impact to 6 planets being destroyed...that's just odd.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 02:02 PM
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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

Yeah I agree on the Republic/Resistance thing. They were a little bit too far from us.

Well, as we may disagree about the credibility thing of the lightsaber fight, this is however how we both would like to SEE these fights.

And I thought Finn was fine. He couldn't fight well with it, not against the other stormtrooper or against Kylo. So that was fine, he said he only knew how to use a blaster anyway, so he self confessed he wasn't good at any other weapon.

Another thing, that didn't bother the movie much, was the disappointing Snoke. Weird character, not very impressive as an evil overlord. He is meant to look all ugly and evil, but he doesn't impress me much. Compare that to Palpy in ROTJ... he scared the crap out of me, while he looked like a wrinkly old man. So not sold on Snoke.

Also, I wonder where this guy comes from. He looks quite ancient, but I cannot possibly imagine that Palpy would allow such a dark Force user around in his day. So there's some mystery to be cleared... (or not, because exposition is boring wink )


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 02:33 PM
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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

Here's a question: the fat bearded resistance pilot... is that the son of the illustrious Porkins?


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 10:14 PM
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NewLanceWindu
Keeper of the Prophecy

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Nevada


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
Here's a question: the fat bearded resistance pilot... is that the son of the illustrious Porkins?


I'm already well spoiled, so I don't mind being in here...

Fat bearded pilot is named Snap Wexely, played by Abrams' good luck charm Greg Grunberg.

The last name of Wexley has already been used in the new canon with Star Wars: Aftermath. This is set only half a year after Endor, I believe. Norra Wexley was a pilot in the Battle of Endor. Her son is 14 year old Temmin Wexley.

It's quite possible that Temmin became a pilot himself and now goes by the nickname Snap. He would be about 44 in TFA and Grunberg himself is 49.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 11:09 PM
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Scribble
Zombie

Registered: Sep 2014
Location: Compound


 

I'm rewatching it as soon as I can. I agree with a lot of both of your points, both good and bad. It was hardly perfect, but a lot of it was really good; I think by about halfway through, it had me captured. The lightsaber battle was great: I liked how Ren and Rey had their own fighting style, but so did Finn, even though he isn't necessarily a force-sensitive. It was a tasteful and tension-filled fight, and reminded me of something like the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Maul fight crossed with Vader vs Luke in ROTJ. The humour overall I though worked well, it didn't go over the top. The story had weak points, and the inclusion of what was essentially just the Death Star seemed a bit underwhelming, but Hux's speech before the Starkiller destroyed the Republic system was pretty intense. Domhnall Gleeson pulled it off perfectly.

Boyega and Ridley both impressed me. As the film went on, their characters really grew on me. I loved the whole bait-and-switch in the trailers regarding which of those two was the true force-sensitive.

Kylo Ren was a highlight for me. I was worried at first when he took off his mask, but Driver nailed it, really.

Like I say, it had its faults, and I could probably go on about a few points that didn't really work for me, but as a first impression, I really liked it. I'm not going to rate it against the first two films yet, because it felt like it was its own thing, not overly influenced by the originals nor the prequels. If I had to describe it in accordance with the previous films, I'd say it felt like a cross between A New Hope and Empire, atmosphere-wise and thematically.

Need to see it again soon, I watched it in 3D and 3D always pulls me out of the film somewhat, so I want to rewatch it so that I can really get a feel for it. Also, two god damn years until the next one.

Overall, pretty pleased with it. Definitely better than any of the prequels (and I'm not even a typical prequel-basher; TFA was just a lot better).


Edit: I'm surprised to see that you find Han's decision to chuck Phasma in the garbage chute 'distasteful', Bardock – it's Han Solo, why would he care? He smoked Greedo just for even threatening him. That's kind of Han's character.


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Last edited by Scribble on Dec 17th, 2015 at 11:23 PM

Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 11:18 PM
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NewLanceWindu
Keeper of the Prophecy

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Nevada


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Scribble
Also, two god damn years until the next one.


Don't forget we're also getting other Star Wars films between the main story ones! Rogue One is less than a year away.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 11:22 PM
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Scribble
Zombie

Registered: Sep 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewLanceWindu
Don't forget we're also getting other Star Wars films between the main story ones! Rogue One is less than a year away.
Rogue One should be fun, but I need more from this new Star Wars time period. I need more!


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2015 11:25 PM
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Morridini
Morridini

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Norway


 

Saw it, loved it, going to bed, maybe writing more thoughts tomorrow.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 12:07 AM
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Bardock42
Junior Member

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I didn't mind too much about Han, my issue was with Finn. Especially after the emotional scene with the storm trooper dying in his arms in the beginning. He went "lol kill them all", pretty quickly.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 12:24 AM
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Scribble
Zombie

Registered: Sep 2014
Location: Compound


 

Yeah, I can understand that. The bit with the stormtrooper dying at the start was pretty emotionally charged it was weird seeing stormtroopers act that way, but it was kind of undercut by Finn blasting the shit out of a few dozen stormtroopers when escaping the Star Destroyer.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 02:49 AM
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ares834
Knight of Ren

Registered: Apr 2009
Location: United States


 

Loved it. My biggest problem was Rey defeating Kylo at the end. But even that is a minor quibble.

Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 04:30 AM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

Had a lot of fun for the most part, liked most of what they did. My most major complaints:

1.) The force's portrayal, and how it was treated/discussed by the characters
2.) The pacing in general
3.) The repeat Death Star plot, and how little it seemed to matter. I.E I felt nothing but disappointment when SK blew up.
4.) Rey's insane, out of nowhere lightsaber mastery and super cheesy oneness moment.

There were a lot of upsides, though. I loved most of the cast! Obviously Han stole the show, but Finn was awesome. I also cared about Poe way more than Wedge, tbh.

Other than the final scene with Rey, I loved the lightsaber combat in this movie. It seemed real, unstaged, and it was really just brutal in the way a lightsaber duel really should be.

I'm wondering if Snoke is actually that ****ing huge? Because that would be super interesting, seriously. I'm guessing he's not, though...


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 05:59 AM
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quanchi112
Unavoidable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Had a lot of fun for the most part, liked most of what they did. My most major complaints:

1.) The force's portrayal, and how it was treated/discussed by the characters
2.) The pacing in general
3.) The repeat Death Star plot, and how little it seemed to matter. I.E I felt nothing but disappointment when SK blew up.
4.) Rey's insane, out of nowhere lightsaber mastery and super cheesy oneness moment.

There were a lot of upsides, though. I loved most of the cast! Obviously Han stole the show, but Finn was awesome. I also cared about Poe way more than Wedge, tbh.

Other than the final scene with Rey, I loved the lightsaber combat in this movie. It seemed real, unstaged, and it was really just brutal in the way a lightsaber duel really should be.

I'm wondering if Snoke is actually that ****ing huge? Because that would be super interesting, seriously. I'm guessing he's not, though...
Why wouldn't he be that big ? When the other characters appear in holograms their size has never been that big. Snoke is awesome and I can't wait to see more from him. Finally a character I can really get into from this franchise aside from Maul.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 06:07 AM
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ares834
Knight of Ren

Registered: Apr 2009
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
When the other characters appear in holograms their size has never been that big.


Clearly you have never seen Empire Strikes Back.

Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 06:09 AM
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quanchi112
Unavoidable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Clearly you have never seen Empire Strikes Back.

Oh yeah but that was of his face not his entire body. This was of Snoke's entire body iirc. When we see the Jedi convening for council they were normal size.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 06:11 AM
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Raptor22
Senior Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Wilbraham, Mass-United States


 

It seems like im in the minority in that i was pretty disappointed. It was like JJ just took the OT and mashed them up into one movie.

Finn, poe, rey, and han were all excellent. Their characters, interactions, and dialog with eachother were great, the battles and lightsaber fights were done well, but far too often i thought to myself- man that scene was good, but i liked it better the first time i saw it in ANH/ESB/RotJ etc.

It was like what JJ did to Star Trek into Darkness, where he basically took the plot from Wrath of Khan and the plot from Undiscovered Country combined the stories into one film and presented it as something original.

It wasn't a bad but it wasnt really good either.

Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 06:58 AM
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Bashar Teg
Senior Mentat

Registered: Mar 2013
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i loved it. the fan winking was a bit much, but it was 1-expected, and 2-never so bad as to make me cringe.

wish we could have seen more of luke.

as far as plot mirroring, it's just an apparent fact that droids make for great smugglers. they keep a low and anonymous profile, cant be sensed/mindread through the force...they just tend to be easily overlooked as we've seen over and over.

for the most part JJ was tasteful and kept his trademark shakey-cam and lense flair at bay and only used them when cinematically relevant.

i wont really be able to give it a confident ranking just yet. need to see it again. hell i still need to process the first viewing. for certain is there was no cringing in my seat at any point. so that puts it way above the prequels for me.

oh and queeq, i'm pretty sure that luke switched r2 on remotely or via the force. i dont think it was a matter of a depressed droid. 3p0 was just projecting imho. r2 is always in on the big plot while 3p0 gets left in the dark because he's a blabbermouth.


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Last edited by Bashar Teg on Dec 18th, 2015 at 07:57 AM

Old Post Dec 18th, 2015 07:54 AM
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