I've been reading alot of the spoilers around this forum and others and there seems to be one thing missing that was mentioned in Reloaded that seems to have been missed. I've read alot that the simple act of Neo walking through the door that he did is what triggers the downfall of the matrix in some way. But after watching Reloaded again I saw something that I've yet to see a post on. During the conversation between Neo and the Oracle Neo asks if he has to choose whether Trinity lives or dies the Oracle says, no, you've already made the choice, now you have to understand why. That seemed to be a prevailing theme through the whole conversation...Neo has already made his choices...but he has to understand why he made them. So I'm thinking that him choosing the door that he did was already predetermined...but he has yet to understand why...and that understanding is what leads to whatever the ending will be. Perhaps I am reaching abit. Another thing I thought while watching the movie again, I've read alot of forums where people think that the Oracle is the mother, for some reason, I don't believe that (a good possibility I am wrong) but certain things throughout the movie made me think that Persophne (sp??) is the actual mother of the matrix. I may be trying to hard to make a link between the kiss of her and Neo and how the Architect is describing her. Anyway, time for sleep for me.
i thought Persephone was the mother. good observation. and yes, he still has to understand why he made that decision. well, all these spoilers suc anyway.
i think that there IS no choice for the humans, or even the machines, it is all predetermined, so Neo must understand why the choice has been made FOR him...the illusion of choice, as the Mero says, is what makes the humans accept the Matrix.and i dont think either Oracle or Persephone are the mother...
well, as I heard someone say before in another forum, it's probably going to be a sort of "battle of philosophies" and we'll just have to wait to see which one wins out in the minds of the W. Brothers.
I disagree with Jedi, I think that the humans do have a choice, but the choices they have are limited, but heck, I'm just a newb so by default you can choose to ingnore me and listen to jedi
so who makes the choices then? If this is all a mechanism of control, who controls it? and who controls that person? Is there an end to this? Some say God, so is the Source the God of the Matrix?
i'm not sure what to believe, once we leave the Zion world...Is it controlled by humans, or machines? are they kind, or evil? whats the point of the matrix? I guess you could say i am playing Devils advocate, testing theories, making people think...
possible, or maybe the american government has commissioned a scientific research expedition to set up a controlled environment that determines the flaws in humanity, in order to better understand ourselves, and thus create more powerful humans...anybody still reading? JJ!!! HAHA
Frale> Ah, the prophetic abilities of the Oracle. A prevailing theme of these movies is, among many things, choice. It’s there with the vase in M1 and Neo taking the candy in M2.
The Oracle sees the Matrix without time. She has the sight (the eyes of the Oracle?). And this is where it becomes strange. The Matrix is after all “just” a computer program. There’s a language written and codes and sub-routines that govern various systems. You can take your ETM-CD and, if your good, crack the code.
If you do, you’ll be able to read the entire game, and with 100 % certainty predict when what will happen. The matrix is slightly more complex, but a program regardless. And that’s what the Oracle can. See the entire program “without time.” From beginning to end. So when she talks to Neo, she can already see that he’ll return to the Matrix. She can see everything that will happen.
Does that take away free choice? No. Why? Because Neo is still choosing. It is still him, NOT the Oracle, who chooses to leave the Architect’s room through the door on the left.
The oracle studies the “why”s. Why does he choose the door to the left? Why does he choose ro risk his life to save Morpheus? She’s studying certain aspects of the human psyche. Namely that which makes us choose the things we do.
That makes her THE best candidate for the mother of the Matrix.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Actually...the Archie said that given the test subjects the illusion of choice they responded well to the program. The oracle does not affect specific choice; only in a general way. The oracle says "you must climb the steps to the top" but not how. In that way she says "you must go to the Mero blah blah blah" but that does have nothing to do with the fact that Neo has chosen the left door.
Test-subjects and how still-sleeping humans respond to the Matrix-program, has absolutely nothing to do with the Oarcle’s ability to “see” the future and be cryptic about her “fortune-telling.”
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Frale> Nice point. You are right, I think the answer is "Love". Neo was given a choice (whether others want to accept that or not) to save the people in the Matrix or Trinity. His love for Trinity outweighed his love of humanity. Thus he chose her.
One thing you made me think of. The consequences of Neo's act. We've talked about how Neo couldn't destroy the Matrix because it would wake up and kill millions or even billions of people.
BUT, what if the Architect wasn't lying and the Matrix now has passed a point of no return. A cataclismic crash is bringing the Matrix down. Could that be part of the ending?
__________________ The past is over. The future a lump of clay. Get dirty and mold it.
KMC Community Forums
Oct 17th, 2003 02:46 AM
