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TheIvan
pro
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: Serbia |
 About the French guy
First of all, I would notice something. I am absolutly sure that this guy is a programmer. As you can see he programmed the cake, not cooked it. Also he (except his girl) is the only person that talks about "sampling" of something. Actualy, it means that he can even programe himself.
Now let's talk about his programmes. He keeps his works with him. Even his earlier works like the vampires. And they're obviously useful for keeping newer programes (the keyer) in safe place.
Of course, his most famous programme is the programme upon the Matrix is based on. I guess. No one else could create such a programme. It is obvious that he knows a lot about human profile as he made such effect with programmed cake. He is also connection beetwen this programme and Oracle, as it looks that he created Oracle too. I first thought of this because it sounded logical to me, now I've also read about the game where Oracle said that he changed her because he was angry. This would be easy explanation.
Why I think this way? Since architect did not create human code for the Matrix, we can be pretty sure that that work was human engineered. So it could be the work of this French guy (suppose that he is human). With doing such work he achieved such power that he errr... could have fun and machines had to accept it as they didn't have any choice. It is possible that he put some code that could be hope for humankind in the Matrix (like Oracle) and that was the reason girl fell in love with him. Could be that he also saved first man from the Matrix. But later he switched to dark side. It is possible that he was disappointed with humankind, or he just fell in love with himself too much.
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May 27th, 2003 09:14 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
 Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
I just assume the Merovingian is an old and wily data acquisition programme.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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May 27th, 2003 09:31 PM |
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TheIvan
pro
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Serbia |
Well, at least we agree in something - he has lot of stored programmes...
He talks about importance of beeing on right place - that could be connected with storing programes. But he is also obssesed with cause and the effect theory. That is hardly connectable with this role. And also, he programmed cake himself, he did not use some stored recepie.
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May 27th, 2003 09:54 PM |
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Tevesh
Senior Member
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: houston |
i thought he was just there because of persephone...i believe that she is the mother. but anyways, yeah, he does have a lot of programes. i think a lot of what he's said to neo, trinity and morpheus will come into play in the next movie. causality, the "why" gives you power....etc.
__________________
Remember, drugs aren't the answer.
Unless the question is: What isn't the answer?
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May 28th, 2003 07:14 AM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
The Merovingian is a sentient being and many of the AIs we have seen in the film have a deep interest in philosophy and the concepts of control, choice, determinism and existence. The Merovingian is no different, he could be a rogue pigeon programme and still be a philosopher. Also as a powerful sentient programme he writes his own additions to the Matrix.
But the way he describes himself as an infirmation broker is why I think he is a data acquisition programme. All the more reason for him to have the Keymaker- what man interested in discovering data could resist someone who can unlock any lock?
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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May 28th, 2003 10:26 AM |
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TheIvan
pro
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Serbia |
OK, now we also agree that he is a programer, even ih he is AI programer...
Generaly, there are the reasons to believe that he is not AI. Why the hell AI would have sexual needs?
Keymaker - interesting point. But as I can see he doesn't keep him like he should, he doesn't use his best programmes for that. I guess that he is just sentimental in keeping his all programs - just a human.
And how could he possibly enchant his girl if he is just a programme? It would be strange that she compares Neo to some data acquisiotion programme.
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May 28th, 2003 12:32 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Why WOULDN'T an AI have sexual needs if he chooses to make his world in place based on man? He wants to fit in. After all, it's not really sex, is it, it is just power.
And you say 'just a programme' as if he is then incapable of enchanting. A programme he may be but he is also a sentient lifeofrm as capable of any such things as we are.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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May 28th, 2003 05:26 PM |
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maul's woman
Senior Member
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: North Bergen New Jersey |
Remember...
Everything HAS to seem real to us. Otherwise the human "crop" would perish. The illusion has to be "real" to us on all aspects.
__________________
I'm Maul's Woman... BEWARE!
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May 28th, 2003 07:43 PM |
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Dexx
wingless
Gender: Male
Location: Bucharest, Romania |
the human born in the matrix has no comparison for 'real'. Real is whatever the machines provide for them..as long as they have choice. (and some other subtle stuff  )
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May 28th, 2003 07:48 PM |
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TheIvan
pro
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Serbia |
I can see why we don't agree. It is because of progammes nature.
I find that programmes are quite simple - they have some purpose and they are equiped with human body to serve it. I can't imagine agent Smith, Oracle, Architect or Keymaker having sex. And I am only sure that they are programmes, for other characters I would put that in doubt.
They were made with some purpose and they spend whole their time in fulfilling it. They don't say even single sentence that is not connected with their purpose.
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May 29th, 2003 08:08 AM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
The Agents may be rather different as they are later generation programmes who were presumably designed with trying to eliminate the problems of earlier ones in mind- i.e. sentient beings don't like to go back home and be re-programmed!
But even Smith was developing wants and desires out of his basic function, as revealed by his conversations with Morpheus, He even disconnected himself from the system to express these thoughts, subversive as they were (that he basically hated his job).
It does not do to think too much of them as single or even multi function programmes. They are TRULY alive, that is the point of genuine AI.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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May 29th, 2003 10:29 AM |
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the baldy man
Junior Member
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: United Kingdom |
One interesting point I picked up on was that the Merovingian made the comment about how he had "survived Neo's predecessors and would also survive him"... If this IS the case, then surely this means that he has knowledge of the previous 5 versions of the Matrix that the Architect later refers to... However, the conversation with the Architect suggests that this is not the case:
Architect: The Matrix is older then you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which case this is the sixth version.
Neo: Then there are only two possible explanations, either no one told me, or no one knows.
What do you think?
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May 29th, 2003 12:13 PM |
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TheIvan
pro
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Serbia |
Well, if Oracle told for him that he is very old programme, then it looks like that he is older than Oracle, and that could mean that he is older than this Matrix is.
Anyway, I am the only one that doubts in rebuilding of matrices. The only thing why that could be true is because it is theataratical. I can't find any logic in that.
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May 29th, 2003 12:36 PM |
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maul's woman
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: North Bergen New Jersey |
It would be extremely funny if the Wachowski (sp?) Brothers decided to really blow our minds and reveal that the Matrix is a multidimensional entity. Spanning several reality dimensions with the truth of which will be revealed to Neo in the end. That the reality in which Neo was pulled in to was REALLY an alternate grid of the Matrix programming for all humans on his level of consciousness. :O He, Neo, is still asleep in a pod in the superstructure in some other-where... Not just him but Morpheus and all the others. They are still held tight and believing whatever the super grid is feeding them.
__________________
I'm Maul's Woman... BEWARE!
Last edited by maul's woman on May 29th, 2003 at 06:36 PM
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May 29th, 2003 06:33 PM |
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turin
Senior Member
 Gender: Male
Location: Hithlum |
that is to easy of an explanation, it goes back to the matrix in a matrix theory.
__________________
and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
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May 30th, 2003 04:15 AM |
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Swedenborg
Assimilated
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: Delta Quadrant |
Too easy an explanation? Please elaborate.
I choose to see it as elegant - close the circle.
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May 30th, 2003 02:52 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Are you talking Matrix within Matrix, Swedenborg? Because that is the opposite of elegant- clumsy, contrived and cliched.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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May 30th, 2003 05:43 PM |
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Swedenborg
Assimilated
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Delta Quadrant |
Matrix within Matrix... Not necessarily...
Could also be ONE Matrix (which spans everything know to that universe.)
That is, there may be a "real" world outside, but it'd not make any sense to the inhabitants of the Matrix... (they can not detect it, they can not affect it.)
Like, if you made a big computer program and created lifeforms in it... They can only exist within the program, they can not escape from your "computer" and into the world where the programmer lives. This "real" world may be totally different.
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May 30th, 2003 05:48 PM |
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Swedenborg
Assimilated
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Delta Quadrant |
It might appear to be Matrix within Matrix to those who lives in the "real" Matrix *L*
But it could just be one Matrix... (One big program.)
Or, it could really be Matrix within Matrix *shrugs*
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May 30th, 2003 05:50 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
You speak as if no-one understands the theory. The theory is not hard- but it is still almost certainly not the case in the film. And it is a plot device than has been used a hundred thousand times before.
But I do not intend to repeat these arguments again- a thread exists for this discussion already.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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May 30th, 2003 05:50 PM |
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