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What type of Program is Neo?
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trav6612
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Cool What type of Program is Neo?

If Neo is a program, or half program, half human, what type fo program would he be? And how would that help the humans on the outside? Cause if he was half robot, he would have to have some type of power, like the sentinels?


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2003 10:54 PM
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trav6612
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Also, if Neo is a program, that would also make Smith in Bane's body a program. What would be his function and what would powers would he inherit in the mortal body? Or is it just that his brain possesses the body without the same powers as when he is in the matrix? eek!
Doesn't it rack your brain


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2003 11:25 PM
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trav6612
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So is Neo a program or human?


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 06:54 PM
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Captain:Lolipop
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I think neo is a "control" within the matrix. He is the end of the cycle. His body in the real world could be just a body "grown" for that program. What I'm trying to say is: the human mind is developed partly by genetics, i.e. who you are, how you act etc. The machines seem to be growing bodies in fields without parents and therefore without a genetic heritage. Therefore Neo could quite possibly be a program that was implanted in a human host at birth. It is quite an interesting idea. or am I just talking rubbish?


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 06:56 PM
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trav6612
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NO that is a good idea, I think it could possible be that, how would the oracle and architect know that he is the one, they would have to search through all of those fields. He could be a program put into the body for the soul purpose of being the one. interesting thought. But what if he isn't a program, is that possible?


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 07:12 PM
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The Serpent
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quote:
But what if he isn't a program, is that possible?


It is only possible if you can explain what it means to make decisions (“choices”) non-algorithmically. (i.e. not based on prior experiences and past conditioning [programming])

Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 07:26 PM
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trav6612
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What is your defintion of making a choice?


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 07:31 PM
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The Serpent
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As a Fatalist I don’t believe we make “choices” per sae, so that term is not in my general lexicon. That is why I tend to always use quotation marks around the term “choice”, meaning – undefined term. Use your own definition.

In other words, I believe that “choices” are simply an illusion (like the Matrix itself). Our actions are all due to the laws of physics and the initial state (i.e. cause and effect).

Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 07:43 PM
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trav6612
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So it is only possible that Neo is not a program if he can have no choice and not base everything on algorithms? Meaning he is not governed by some higher power or law?


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 07:47 PM
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The Serpent
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quote:
trav6612 said:
So it is only possible that Neo is not a program if he can have no choice and not base everything on algorithms? Meaning he is not governed by some higher power or law?


Exactly.

As I have stated I don’t comprehend the notion of “free will”, and no one who believes in “free will” seems able to explain precisely what it means. Ergo, I see no difference between (let’s say) Persephone (an algorithm) and Trinity (a non-algorithm?).

Once again, I believe that a major theme of these films is that we are all machines (or all “humans” depending on how you perceive it). And the clear-cut division between programs and humans is in fact an illusion.

Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 08:06 PM
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trav6612
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I disagree only by the fact that there is a difference. The oracle talked about how a machine or program is governed by laws and rules, free will only comes into play when they willingly disobey or obey. Humans for example have that choice to willingly obey and disobey.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 08:09 PM
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The Serpent
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quote:
trav6612 said:
I disagree only by the fact that there is a difference. The oracle talked about how a machine or program is governed by laws and rules, free will only comes into play when they willingly disobey or obey. Humans for example have that choice to willingly obey and disobey.


I disagree. Humans are bound by the laws of physics, and the laws of physics are analogous to the programming language that our algorithms are written in. We cannot “choose” to disobey the laws of physics any more than a computer program can “choose” to disobey it’s pre-determined programming.

Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 08:20 PM
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trav6612
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I would have to agree with you there. Then what is Neo's predetermined programming?


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 08:24 PM
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The Serpent
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quote:
I would have to agree with you there. Then what is Neo's predetermined programming?


I called the Oracle to ask, but I got her machine. wink

hehehe

Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 08:39 PM
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trav6612
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Wouldn't that be nice to have her around.


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"If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?

Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 08:40 PM
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The Serpent
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It would be sweet.

... Then again, so would being able to dodge bullets (or make orgasm-cake).

Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 08:43 PM
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trav6612
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I wouldn't mind having that receipe myself.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2003 10:00 PM
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Swedenborg
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Assuming that there is no randomness in the world (including any external reality we do not know of, or the reality we experience), then it would seem everything is determined, which seems to be how Serpent sees the world. My apologizes if I misinterpreted your view *nods*

Still, there might be possible to create a complex system that no-one can predict the outcome of. The resources needed to predict the outcome can only be achieved by creating a duplicate, or even more complex system, than the original complex system - and if the new system can operate faster than the old one, and indeed predict the outcome before the original, they should use that improved system instead of the original system (because it is more efficient.)

In the end, the creator would not have full control of the outcome at the time the system is launched (time as measured in the "creator's" world.)

Neo could be such a complex system (or program.)

The only way to control him, would be to create several other (totally separated) simulations and let other (slightly modified) Neos operate under similar, or slightly different circumstances... Until you get the wanted results (whatever they might be.)

From the creator's point of view, these simulations could be run in several different computers simultaneously... or, if computer resources are scarce, they use the same computer over and over again... and change the conditions of the simulations a bit each time.

Last edited by Swedenborg on Jun 6th, 2003 at 03:56 AM

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 02:58 AM
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Swedenborg
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What this boils down to, I guess, is making several time-lines possible (but in a simulated world) EVEN if the simulated world is deterministic.

The time-lines are sought in a deterministic fashion though... Those making the decisions (or the computers) would still be determined by the world THEY live in.

However, that is not very relevant to the plot of a movie. At some point, the creator(s) have a goal with the simulations, and they strive for it. I think this motivaton is what matters most (it's not particularly interesting that this goal was put in their mind by some deterministic series of events - that's just some premises we have to accept as a background story to the movie.). The line should be drawn somewhere. wink

(The whole argument assumes that determinism is truly global.)

Last edited by Swedenborg on Jun 6th, 2003 at 04:17 AM

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 03:33 AM
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The Serpent
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quote:
Swedenborg said:
Assuming that there is no randomness in the world (including any external reality we do not know of, or the reality we experience), then it would seem everything is determined, which seems to be how Serpent sees the world. My apologizes if I misinterpreted your view *nods*


No, you have it correct, my Friend.

But assume for a moment that there is randomness (magic) in the universe – what would that mean to you and me?

What it would mean is that instead of making your decisions based on your past experiences and memories, you would make them randomly NOT based on memories and past experiences (and even instincts and intuition are based on past experiences). In other words, if your decisions are not determined logically then it is equivalent to saying that when you approach a red traffic light, regardless of your previous knowledge of the sensible “proper” course of action you randomly (flip a coin and) decide whether to GO or STOP on each occasion.

In my mind, that is NOT how reality works.

quote:
Still, there might be possible to create a complex system that no-one can predict the outcome of. The resources needed to predict the outcome can only be achieved by creating a duplicate, or even more complex system, than the original complex system - and if the new system can operate faster than the old one, and indeed predict the outcome before the original, they should use that improved system instead of the original system (because it is more efficient.)


Actually it is a little more complicated than that, but you have the right idea.

Assume that you ARE an algorithm, and that you are processing at a certain speed. To predict your own future would be equivalent of having a faster co-processor that could anticipate what you were going to do before you actually did it.

Inputs (incoming information) modifies the behavior of your algorithm, so by anticipating your future actions in advance you would generate new INPUTS that would alter that behavior and thus alter your Wolrdline (i.e. change your Destiny).

quote:
In the end, the creator would not have full control of the outcome at the time the system is launched (time as measured in the "creator's" world.)


Exactly right … ergo, God.

quote:
Neo could be such a complex system (or program.)

The only way to control him, would be to create several other (totally separated) simulations and let other (slightly modified) Neos operate under similar, or slightly different circumstances... Until you get the wanted results (whatever they might be.)


Recall that during Neo’s discussion with the Architect there are numerous monitors which depict Neo in all of his various permutations. That is the Architect has a faster computer and he is attempting to anticipate all of Neo’s possible destinies before Neo does. The reason that the Architect cannot know 100% what Neo will do (and can only see various possibilities) is because he does not possess all of Neo’s information.

Faster processing alone will not produce the correct result (a 100% accurate prophecy). You also need complete information about the system (Neo) that you are trying to anticipate.

quote:
From the creator's point of view, these simulations could be run in several different computers simultaneously... or, if computer resources are scarce, they use the same computer over and over again... and change the conditions of the simulations a bit each time.


That’s exactly right.

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 01:55 PM
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