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Matrix Philosophical Theories
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maul's woman
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OH BOY!!! Good analyses all! big grin

I like Moredred's idea about Seraph. The angelic order is called Seraphim. I believe they are the highest of the angelic orders. Seraph is the protector of the Oracle yes. The Oracle is one of the voices of the "god" figure which is the A.I. She helps Neo, who is the chosen one. The Architect is her polar opposite and extremely important... the trickster; the tempter; the cold one with hard "choices" that lead to death and degradation, but also to survival for Neo and the humans; the Adversary. He is the dark voice of the "god figure" which is the A.I. He tells the truth, half truths, and no truth at all. All at the same time plus try and confuse Neo with the multiple images of Neo along the walls to distract him.

The Wachowski Brothers used alot of religious allogory and mythology from not only christianity, but Judaism, possibly Islam and Buddhism. THis is an excellent blending of all feelings of the 4 major religions of the world in this story. They used the Yin/Yang thought from the far east also. The Oracle/Architect is that thought... Neo/Trinity is that thought. Lock/Hamann is that thought. This is excellent stuff.

Trav6612, Smith and Neo are linked completely. Smith is now a rogue program that is allowed by the A.I. to continue its mission. All as a test for Neo and a prodding for his further advancement. If Neo dies then the A.I. will start again, but his he doesn't die and somehow neutralizes the rogue Smith program then that is of great importance to the A.I. It will be borne out in REVOLUTIONS. big grin


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Last edited by Raz on Jun 7th, 2003 at 12:02 PM

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 01:03 PM
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The Serpent
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quote:
maul's woman said:
I like Moredred's idea about Seraph. The angelic order is called Seraphim. I believe they are the highest of the angelic orders. Seraph is the protector of the Oracle yes. The Oracle is one of the voices of the "god" figure which is the A.I. She helps Neo, who is the chosen one. The Architect is her polar opposite and extremely important... the trickster; the tempter; the cold one with hard "choices" that lead to death and degradation, but also to survival for Neo and the humans; the Adversary. He is the dark voice of the "god figure" which is the A.I. He tells the truth, half truths, and no truth at all. All at the same time plus try and confuse Neo with the multiple images of Neo along the walls to distract him.


I agree M.W.; I think you have hit the nail on the head.

The Oracle represents the positive “Goddess” figure (the Good God), and the Architect represents the older, evil “God” figure (the Evil God – Satan, the Devil). Neo represents Mankind caught in the middle while the two omnipotent powers battle over his soul. For the same reasons Christians have connected Neo as a Messiah-like figure.

quote:
The Wachowski Brothers used alot of religious allogory and mythology from not only christianity, but Judaism, possibly Islam and Buddhism. THis is an excellent blending of all feelings of the 4 major religions of the world in this story. They used the Yin/Yang thought from the far east also. The Oracle/Architect is that thought... Neo/Trinity is that thought. Lock/Hamann is that thought. This is excellent stuff.


Exactly. The Wachowski’s have combined the overlapping and true ideas from all major religions as well as science (just another religion) to form their philosophical model of the world.

I have heard many Christians try and claim that these films are a Christian allegory, but I think that is a case of people reading too much of their own views into the films. If anything the Wachowski’s are Gnostics (and earlier less dogmatic version of Christianity).

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 02:13 PM
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maul's woman
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Gnosticism is good because it helps open the mind to all other possibilities.

But I don't see the Architect as pure evil and bad, etc. etc. Nor do I see the Oracle as the good god, etc. etc. I see them as both the same mind. The great intellect but the two opposing aspects of that one great mind... the A.I. I do see the Oracle aspect of the A.I. as the nurturer in its own way so therefore the Wachowski Brothers had the Oracle as an older female. A grandmother type figure always baking cookies and offering candies to sooth the pain of living, so to speak. The Architect is not the father figure as much as it is the distant grandfather or greatgrandfather figure but stern and unmoving... looking at Neo with a combination of detachment and disapproval at the same time. Sometimes mocking and tempting... This can also be the Lucifer (light bearer) aspect as well as the Satanic (adversary) aspect of the dynamic A.I. mentality. One would do this to a person to spur them on to higher achievements. It doesn't always work, but the Wachowski Brothers understand that idea.


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 03:09 PM
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The Serpent
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quote:
Maul’s Woman said:
Gnosticism is good because it helps open the mind to all other possibilities.


The more we agree the more I like you M.W. (so who is this elusive “Maul”???)

quote:
M.W. continued:
But I don't see the Architect as pure evil and bad, etc. etc. Nor do I see the Oracle as the good god, etc. etc. I see them as both the same mind. The great intellect but the two opposing aspects of that one great mind... the A.I. I do see the Oracle aspect of the A.I. as the nurturer in its own way so therefore the Wachowski Brothers had the Oracle as an older female. A grandmother type figure always baking cookies and offering candies to sooth the pain of living, so to speak. The Architect is not the father figure as much as it is the distant grandfather or greatgrandfather figure but stern and unmoving... looking at Neo with a combination of detachment and disapproval at the same time. Sometimes mocking and tempting... This can also be the Lucifer (light bearer) aspect as well as the Satanic (adversary) aspect of the dynamic A.I. mentality. One would do this to a person to spur them on to higher achievements. It doesn't always work, but the Wachowski Brothers understand that idea.


I agree completely with your analysis/assessment here as well.

What was that saying about “great minds” … ? (hehehe … wink)

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 03:34 PM
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trav6612
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I've got a question for you all? The architect while talking to Neo said that if Neo didn't diseminate his code in the source, it would destroy the matrix. What is so important about Neo putting his code into the source?


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:00 PM
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The Serpent
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quote:
What is so important about Neo putting his code into the source?


I got the distinct impression that Neo needed to download his memories and experiences (unique information) into the “Source” (of the Matrix) so that the next generation, improved version of the Matrix could be generated.

Without new information no improvement could be made over the existing system.

Just my 2 cents.

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:04 PM
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trav6612
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I would agree, but why would the architect say that the matrix would be destroyed killing everyone attached to the matirix, if it is only to improve the matrix?


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:14 PM
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maul's woman
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I agree. Its evolution in a sense. All living things download their genetic code by sexual reproduction or asexual reproduction. In the case of the A.I. it recreates itself through the downloading of the memories, etc. by the chosen one. At the moment Neo may not understand that and may not do it. He may see it as a trick by the Architect, but it was the appeal of the A.I. for him to do so. Will he die in the process? That is the question.

"the creator must join with V'Ger". big grin


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:17 PM
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trav6612
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Yes, that is a good question? Will Neo die or not and does the architect know that? How could he know that?


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:22 PM
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Tomkat

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Maul,

My posts don't seem to be showing up for some reason, I apologize if I have duplicate posts.

Please check out the last couple pages of the "OFFICIAL is there more than 1 Matrix" thread. I'm starting to get my thoughts together, but I may need your help there.

Thanks

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:25 PM
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maul's woman
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ok... give me a few moments.


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:36 PM
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The Serpent
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Here is the entire transcript of the Neo-Architect dialogue. I think this will be helpful to the discussion:

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bullshit.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*
The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 06:31 PM
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maul's woman
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Thank you Serpent. You answered it. Neo dies to the reality of Zion and combines with the Great Mind. V'ger joins with the creator.

It is clear now that I can read the dialogue itself. The architect and the Oracle are polar opposites. The light and the dark. The faith and the realities. The Self arguing and analyzing itself. The Oracle is the opimistic and bright side of the A.I. creativity, whereas the Architect is the analytical part of that creativity. It's written right there. One has to read it and read between the lines. It's beautiful. smile I think Neo became aware that he is going to die but before that he saves Trinity. smile REVOLUTION will be the telling. smile


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 06:44 PM
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trav6612
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When is it that Neo became aware that he was going to die? "Neo dies to the reality of Zion and combines with the Great Mind." could you also clarify what you mean by this statment.
In what way doe she join the great mind?


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 06:48 PM
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maul's woman
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The Architect indicated that Neo carries the code that the A.I. needs. He is to disseminate that code into the "source". The source is the A.I. To disseminate that code he will have to join with the A.I. It is my belief that the process will kill his living body, but his mind and his selfness will be one with the A.I. The source.

Read the dialogue Serpent posted. It's all there. It's beautiful. smile


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 06:59 PM
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The Serpent
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Once again I find myself agreeing with your insightful remarks M.W.; however I wouldn’t be so quick to equate Logic and Analysis with Darkness and Pessimism.

But then again, maybe even Satan isn’t as bad as we’ve been told, and in the end even he is redeemable?

Which brings me to this line of the Architect’s dialogue:

Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end.

Anyone have any idea exactly what the Architect is getting at here? In my mind he seems to be implying a loop in time (a loop in causality), which is very interesting in that this implies Time Travel.

Perhaps Neo is the ultimate cause for the existence of the Matrix? Any thoughts?

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 07:02 PM
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trav6612
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Why does A.I. need the code, is it to preform an upgrade and try to fix the upgrade?


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 07:14 PM
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maul's woman
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That's a magnificent leap. It would not have equate it with TIME. Not at all.

The beginning and the end... I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Neo is the "christ" figure to the ARchitect's Vishnu like thought... I have become death... the destroyer of worlds. That can be taken on several levels. Unless I have my dieties mixed up... The oracle is Shiva to the Architect's Vishnu with the A.I. en totus as BRAHMA... God of all. Without getting religious in any sense this is what the dialogue kinda brought to mind. But the time looping? Fascinating. How would you explain this?

The dialogue is like saying the A.I. was saying to Neo through the Architect that "I have come full circle and now I wish to take from you what is part of me so I can continue on. To grow. I must absorb what you are." That is what it sounds like.


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Last edited by maul's woman on Jun 6th, 2003 at 07:24 PM

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 07:16 PM
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Ushgarak
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Time travel? Ridiculous.

The Anomaly is responsible for the start of each Matrix phase and he is responsible for the end of each one as well. Simple as that.

Meanwhile, seriously guys, there is too much irrelevant waffle in these threads. if you want to talk to each other about your 'ideas', do so in private but a lot of what is being said here is doing nothing more than put a lot off posting.


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 07:20 PM
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maul's woman
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Not time travel. Serpent is speaking ecsoterically about time looping. Even nonecsoterically. But I am waiting for his explanation of his meaning. I'm fascinated. big grin


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 07:23 PM
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