My point is nobody suggest not even Superman, Hardware and Icon that Batman is wrong.
Characters in fiction is just fiction created by writers and we don't need to use psychology or whatever kind of real life solution or analysis to solve this kind of problem. Their writers what matters most in the end, even if they commit a mistake in real life applications or science.
My point is nobody suggest not even Superman, Hardware and Icon that Batman is wrong. About the moon's mass, pulverizing an 81 billion tons moon is the reason why Supes got knocked out and not the mass alone.
Blatant lie. You don't have Justice League of America 30. Neron has nothing to do in Justice League of America 30. Show me where it was stated in Justice League of America 30 that magic was the power source of the shadow moon.
Blatant lie. It's the second time you proved me that you don't have Justice League of America 30. Using wikipedia is not a valid evidence and it wasn't Starbreaker that amped Shadow Thief's power but the Shadow Cabinet's shadowslide of teleportation system. I keep on telling you before that Icon knew it, if you have the comics you would recognize my clue that Shadow Thief's power source was the teleportation system. I will show you the scan which proves that Starbreaker or Neron didn't amp Shadow Thief's power and you don't have Justice League of America 30.
Look, the last thing Superman remembers is trying to stop the bomb from detonating and the next thing he knows he’s there. There’s no memory of him inside the explosion or ground zero explosion and there’s no fire or smoke to prove us that explosion reached him, same thing applies in the destruction of the moon incident.
Blatant lie. It's pretty clear that you don't have Justice League of America 30. I will show you the scan and you will show me where it was stated by Batman that "it has the same mass as the real moon." Here's the scan:
Unless Endless Mike is going to reply, i see no reason to leave this open.
also, it is a fact that McDuffie (who wrote JLA 30) believed that our moon's mass was 81 billion tons, and intended the shadow moon to be the same size as the normal moon. That makes Batman wrong.
Fine with me, thanks. It's Endless Mike's idea to bring my reply here. I hope it's ok for you to bring my reply to the place where it started.
Size has nothing to do with mass. Read the scan again, it was intended that the shadow moon to be the same mass(not size) as the normal moon, it was stated in the scan.
In real world, you're correct but the writer is the one who creates the fictional world. It doesn't matter whether it's wrong or right in our world, but in fictional world yes.
Mr. Moderator, I'm not a type of person who keeps bashing and bashing, it's just Endless Mike insults me first. Anyway, if that's what you think, I'm sorry. And my point here is that I'm not a liar from the start that I'm a comics collector and not a scans collector.
__________________ Crossovers usually beat logic, so equations cannot prove who is stronger.
Last edited by nij-ayias on Mar 31st, 2009 at 08:15 AM
my mistake. i meant mass, rather than size, which is too vague. On Mcduffie's own forum, he claimed that after doing the math, the mass of our actual moon was 81 billion tons. he used that figure to calculate the size of the shadow moon. which as we know, is incorrect.
if a writer says "this planet is the same size as earth" and then states an incorrect mathematical figure, then we go by it being the same size as earth, and he just made a mess of the math.
I just read it in DC comics message board but, what's the evidence that it's really Mcduffie? And can you please show me that topic in Mcduffie's own forum?
Back in the Revamped Superman Respect Thread. He said that I'm just making excuses but it was him who made excuses like using real life psychology, real life science, real life analysis, and other off topic DC comics. He even called me a liar that he couldn't believe that I collect comics. Then, he keeps on telling me that he has the Justice League of America 30 but in reality, he don't. Lastly, he also insults me about reading the comics correctly.
1.) In my scan, I proved him that Neron or Starbreaker didn't increase Shadow Thief's power but the stolen teleportation system.
2.) In my scan, I proved him that Batman didn't say it has the same mass as the real moon but 81 billion tons.
__________________ Crossovers usually beat logic, so equations cannot prove who is stronger.
Last edited by nij-ayias on Apr 1st, 2009 at 10:36 AM
No one cares about supes getting knocked out Especially me...i don't care if a chipmunk knocks him out, not gonna be going around being all like 'OMGZ SUPES GOT KO'ED BY A CHIPMUNK!!!!!11!!'
batman doesn't say it, someone else does. they do say that it's supposed to have the same mass as the real moon. mcduffie on his own site said he once tried to calculate the mass of our moon and got 81 billion tons. he got the math wrong, but through the entire thread (the link is in the superman respect thread, if i get a chance i'll find it) he says that his intent was for it to be the same mass as our moon.
and this being apart from the fact that when it comes to superman, mcduffie is one of the least qualified to even begin to talk about what superman can and can't do. his superman in jla has been piss poor for around what, 16 (i think burnett did a couple) issues? he seems to have no idea how to write superman in a team book.
superman has higher feats than being knocked out by a moon travelling at over seven million kph.
Are people forgetting that superman had near infinite mass when he collided into the moon?the fact that he was messed up more by the moon feat then getting hit by supernovas or being in or near exploding planets should make it common sense that it wasn't simply moon busting.
In Justice League of America 30, Endless Mike claimed that Shadow Thief's power was amplified by Starbreaker or Neron. But it was not, read the scan that I post, Mr. Moderator. Starbreaker or Neron has nothing to do with Shadow Thief's power in Justice League of America 30. In Justice League of America 30, Shadow Thief's power source was the Shadow Cabinet's shadowslide of teleportation system and not Neron or Starbreaker.
OK thanks you win in DC moon's mass argument, I know when to concede unlike Endless Mike. And that's the reply I wanna receive unlike his false science, psychology and off topic DC argument, anyway thanks again.
Comics is a comics and besides this kind of argument should belong to the writers and DC company.
The issue here is the planet buster/supernova or anything about explosions that knocked him out unconscious and not the black holes. There are no issues where Modern-Superman took a point blank range or ground zero planet busting WITHOUT GETTING KNOCKED OUT UNCONSCIOUS.
Mister, Superman's supernova feat knock him out unconscious, that's my point here. And Superman's 50x Supernova didn't even touch his skin because he escaped it. Being NEAR exploding planet pluto is nowhere the point blank range Earth's moon mass explosion.
__________________ Crossovers usually beat logic, so equations cannot prove who is stronger.
Last edited by nij-ayias on Apr 3rd, 2009 at 09:57 AM
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I was under the weather for a few days. Anyway:
They didn't exactly have time to argue about it, the earth was about to be destroyed.
We do if we want to analyze it objectively. Your idea works if you're talking about a literary analysis, i.e. "was this a good story?", "Is Superman a good character?" and other subjective things like that.
But when you're talking about things like "how much force does it take to knock out Superman" then, by, definition, you are dealing with scientific measurements, and things have to be analyzed scientifically. Otherwise you can make up any excuses you want to say anything.
Because, as I said, the earth was about to be destroyed. Kind of a waste of time to argue about it.
As in KE, but it wasn't 81 billion tons, because the moon could not possibly be that small/gaseous if it was.
Of course he wasn't, but Shadow Thief was. And Shadow Thief got his powers from Neron.
It was made from Shadow Thief's power.
Like what he did to the moon. Sure, he was receiving an extra power boost from Starbreaker, but he was still using the ability that Neron gave him. Which is magic.
If you read a Doctor Strange comic and you see him fire a random blast, do you not believe it's magic unless it is explicitly stated? Doctor Strange's powers are magic, just like Neron's are, and Neron gave Shadow Thief his powers, therefore it is magic. QED.
I don't have it with me, but I did read it. Shadow Thief made a deal with Starbreaker. The extra power he got merely served to amplify his existing powers, which were granted by Neron. Which were magic.
Which is part of the explosion. He was clearly hit by it, and this was after he had been drenched in red sun radiation that had severely weakened him. Obviously he didn't take the whole thing, but he sure as hell took a lot of it, and even an average supernova is 12 orders of magnitude greater then the energy required to destroy the earth.
What's wrong with wikipedia? As long as you check the edit history to see if no one vandalized it then it's perfectly fine most of the time, and I even provided a corroborating source.
I don't see any proof he was knocked out. You're simply interpreting things from the art. Kind of ironic since you kept asking for evidence to be directly stated earlier.....
Oh, and stop copying my phrases. I say "blatant lie", make up your own way to tell me you think I'm lying.
Um, no, he wasn't. He teleported away after fighting the "Source" because it was all part of his plan to reincarnate for Final Crisis.
Means you were right next to it when it exploded. But I don't see why you couldn't be right next to it and blasted away by the explosion.
Scan's not showing up, champ.
He was right inside of it, of course it reached him, since it needed to happen to power the time warp.
Right in the fourth panel.
Are you blind?
Mass = volume (size) x density. Of course size is related to mass.
And about it being the same mass as the real moon, I just said that and in your last post you denied it. Make up your mind about what you are trying to say.
Telling people they are making excuses counts as an insult now?
Which you have to do if you want to make an objective analysis. Is it so wrong to assume human characters will behave like actual human beings? Not to mention you are a huge hypocrite since if you denied using any type of real science you would realize that any debate like this was pointless since "81 billion tons" could mean anything from "2 ounces" to "a trillion times the mass of the real universe". Tons as a unit of mass is defined by real life science, so if you are attempting to use it you have to use real science.
No, I merely said that I doubted you had every Superman comic ever published, which was what you claimed. If you had said you had every Thanos comic, or even every Silver Surfer comic, that would be somewhat believable, but Superman has probably been in more comics than any other character and has been around for over 70 years, claiming you have every Superman comic ever made stretches credibility.
Stop strawmanning me. I never said I had it, merely that I had read it (which I did).
You did that first, you kept saying that I didn't read the comic when I did, so I simply pointed out some obvious mistakes you made and naturally concluded that you had not read the comics correctly.
No you didn't. The point was that Shadow Thief had his powers amped by Neron and still had that, just because he got an additional powerup doesn't mean the magical nature of Neron's granted power somehow disappeared.
Yeah, Batman didn't say it. Someone else did - I misremembered since I read the comic once several weeks ago. Does that really change anything? It still says it has the same mass as the real moon, which was my point.
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Last edited by Endless Mike on Apr 5th, 2009 at 07:33 PM
Again, wrong. I said that Neron had amped his power in the past (not that issue) and that power still remained, thus the nature of his power, even though it was amped again, was still magical. I never stated Neron was in JLA#30
If you read a Silver Surfer comic, and Galactus is never mentioned or shown anywhere in it, and Surfer performs a feat, and I say Surfer did that feat with the Power Cosmic he got from Galactus, would you call me a liar because Galactus wasn't in that comic? It's part of his origin/character history.
That's a laugh. I concede when I am wrong. For example, how I misremembered Batman saying it was the same mass as the moon when it was really someone else who said it. Whereas you simply ignore most of my arguments or just go off on irrelevant tangents.
OWAW
Auctioneer's bomb
Sun-Eater
Mageddon Warhead
DOTNG
Punches from SBP
GL blasts
Void Hound
Flying through Rao
Asteroid with enough KE to destroy earth
etc.
Ignoring them won't make them go away
Not the Sun-Eater, and he was severely weakened then.
Now this is a complete lie. He was flying away but he was too weak to escape the blast, it was enveloping him. He got away before the main blast hit him but he still took a lot of it. Stop downplaying the feats.
If I remember correctly, Superman was only avoiding the following entropic energy after he got hit with the actual Supernova blast.
__________________
Humans are afraid of the dark.
And yet… At the same time, we’re fascinated and bewitched by it.
Maybe that’s why humans drink the darkness that is coffee.
Neron amplified Shadow Thief's power in Underworld Unleased but not in Justice League of America 30.
Wrong, first of all Shadow Thief uses a Dimensiometer device which enables its wearer to shift his body into a two-dimensional, intangible "shadow" state. Are you telling me that Shadow Thief used two dimensiometer in Justice League of America 30? Where? Atleast show some scans.
Read Underworld Unleashed, when Neron was defeated it turned back - breaking that one deal(amplified in power) also broke all his others, including Shadow Thief’s costume that gives him power. I suggests you to read it before reading any incomplete internet stuffs. You act like such an expert but you get things wrong. Without internet sutffs, you wouldn't know anything about Shadow Thief. Shadow Thief's power in Justice League of America 30 is not magic.
No, it’s not a ground zero explosion. The electromagnetic shockwave that came rushing towards Superman cannot pulverize Planet Earth or Earth’s moon judging from the size of its expanding ball of radiation. The electromagnetic shockwave that hits Superman is nowhere as big as metropolis. If the electromagnetic shockwave that came rushing at lightspeed can destroy the Planet Earth, it will also destroy J. Kent’s spaceship. Electromagnetic shockwave is not pure explosions; my argument is about pure energy explosion than can pulverize the Planet Earth and not just a part of explosion like shockwave.
I’m not downplaying the feats, its just you didn’t answer my question directly. Is that ground zero explosion?
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Are you telling me that waking up from explosion means nothing? So, what are your interpretations of waking up from the explosions?
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Look, the last thing Superman remembers is trying to stop the bomb from detonating and the next thing he knows he’s there. There’s no memory of him inside the explosion or ground zero explosion and there’s no fire or smoke to prove us that explosion reached him, same thing applies in the destruction of the moon incident.
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If you read that issue, you would realize the difference when the explosion hits him or not.
No, Superman was inside but has no memory of receiving a moon buster and atomic bomb. You're no longer arguing with me anymore but with Superman or its writer. I'll repeat, Superman has no memory of receiving an atomic bomb explosion or anything, similar to moon's destruction.
Like I said before, name me any Superman issue and I can show the feats here.
So who's the liar now? You even insulted me by calling me blind. Like I said to Mr. Moderator, I know when to concede and accept mistakes unlike you.
You act like such an expert but you get things wrong.
It’s not a ground zero planet busting. Besides, pulverizing Pluto isn’t as powerful as pulvering the Earth’s moon or Planet Earth. Superman is faster than light in space and its just the small Planet Pluto, surely he escaped that explosion. Its either to accept Superman is lightspeed or not.
Look at the scan, where did you see Superman? Inside the explosion or outside the explosion?
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It’s not a bomb but a robot. Explosion that could slice the Planet Earth in half isn’t as powerful as the explosion that can pulverize the Earth’s moon or Planet Earth.
Overexaggeration of feats and the warhead didn’t explode. Superman stated that he can absorb anti-sunlight similar to yellow sunlight.
Without flying, SBP/SMP cannot destroy a Planet Earth in a single punch. Besides, my argument here is the energy blast/explosion that can pulverize the planet Earth.
No average Green Lantern can pulverize a landmass equivalent to all Pennsylvania or Earth’s moon. GL John Stewart with the power of the Void Hound obliterated a landmass equivalent to all of Pennsylvania. With the power of the Void Hound, J. Stewart asking what else he could do and its potential scares him. J. Stewart is beyond an average Green Lantern, meaning no average GL is beyond VoidHound-John Stewart. No average Green Lantern can obliterate a landmass equivalent to all Pennsylvania or Earth’s moon.
Void Hound cannot pulverize a Sun or Planet Earth in a single blast. Its forty-six squads of dronestrikers were considered the Void Hound's "fangs." The dronestriker attack craft would swarm an enemy starship or planet. The launchers can fire off tesseract bombs which violently folded everything in its detonation radius momentarily inside-out for over thousand mile spans ravaging mountain ranges and coastlines. The ten gravitic whirlpool batteries featured enough power to send tidal ripples across a planet's continents while the holocaust beam would rip across the face of continents, cutting trenches up to three miles wide. So, where is its power to pulverize the Sun or Planet Earth in single blast? I suggests you read the comics, the single blast Superman took from Void Hound cannot pulverize the Planet Pluto. Void Hound cannot pulverize the Earth in a single blast.
He flew through Rao faster than light, meaning its just a split second or less. Besides, it will take 280 days for the yellow sun to match the power of a blast that can pulverize the Planet Earth.
My point isn’t about all type of energy but explosion alone.
__________________ Crossovers usually beat logic, so equations cannot prove who is stronger.
Last edited by nij-ayias on Apr 6th, 2009 at 01:50 PM
I said before if you are going to post scans just link to them or use thumbnails, don't use huge scans that take up the whole page, it's annoying. I get the feeling you're doing it deliberately just to piss me off now.
AFAIK the powerup didn't wear off, and he used one of the extra powers Neron gave him (making shadow of other objects, in this case the moon)
No, I'm stating that Shadow Thief used his Neron-granted powers amplified by a deal with Starbreaker via the teleportation array
Then why was he able to create a shadow of the moon?
That's retarded. You can't tell the size by looking at it - it's a perspective shot. And how can you tell by the size anyway? Gladiator's fists pulverized a planet and they were smaller than that shockwave.
In fact it was 50 times larger than a supernova that created a large nebula.
Except said spaceship is faster than the speed of light and outran it. Duh.
Also please show the scaling you used to determine the size of that explosion. Keep in mind a shockwave is omnidirectional so it would expand to larger than the size of the sun at that point, and eventually many light-years in diameter.
A shockwave is the damaging part of an explosion. Learn basic physics please. It would have the power to annihilate the earth more than a trillion times over. Do you know what a supernova is capable of and how much energy it releases? You're just being willfully ignorant now.
Not directly, but it doesn't matter since it would still be able to destroy the earth at several AU and Superman was clearly closer than that (seeing as he had to fly to the center of the thing to drop the entropy bomb).
He closed his eyes as it was about to hit him and opened them when it was over. I'd sure close my eyes if I was about to be hit by something like that. No proof he was knocked out.
So the explosion happened quickly, and the time travel/explosion combination messed with his memories a bit. I don't see your point. Many people tend to suppress traumatic memories.
So you are claiming you have every Superman comic ever made? Please answer yes or no to clarify this.
Does it matter? It still says the same thing, and leads to the same conclusion. You're the one who claimed it had less mass than the actual moon, which was wrong. And as for "acting like an expert" I'm not the one claiming I have every single Superman comic ever made.
That is true, but it is still a planet (well, dwarf planet now), and that is what you asked for.
Except we can clearly see him getting hit by it.
You can see him getting hit by the explosion in the first panel of the second page you posted. Furthermore, you're using a false dilemma fallacy. He tried to escape through the interior passages of the planet, going lightspeed inside the planet would be too dangerous (he would cause lots of damage and maybe not make it out in time). So he probably didn't go lightspeed until he actually reached the surface. Enough time was spent inside of it escaping for the explosion to hit him.
It was a bomb inside the robot - that's a pointless nitpick. Furthermore it's certainly close, since it was a planar shockwave when it hit him it would be like getting hit with a sword made of energy that could cleave the planet in half.
It could destroy half the galaxy, and he absorbed all of it into him, and anti-sunlight is the opposite of yellow sunlight, so it hurt him, the opposite of yellow sunlight which powers him up. It's more impressive than tanking the explosion because if it exploded most of it would go off in every direction, but he absorbed it all into himself.
No it isn't, because then you wouldn't bring up him flying into the shadow moon, since that was just a physical punch and not an energy attack. Furthermore, SBP can move planets across the universe so fast that people don't even realize they're gone until after the fact, he can punch out of the phantom zone and speedforce, and rip open Monarch's armor that can easily tank planetbusters. If he is serious his punch is definitely a planetbuster+.
EDIT: Posted wrong scan, I'll try to find the right one
Laughable, taking low - end feats as the maximum.
Here's two rookie lanterns talking casually about how they stitched a planet back together:
Here's Guy Gardner holding together a structure the size of a small solar system with a white dwarf star at the center (granted, he's struggling to do it, but it's way above planetary level):
Anything that can do that can surely destroy a planet much easier.
Only in the power it gives out from the surface, the power at the core is far greater. If the earth was teleported into the core of a star it would be gone almost instantly.
He punched the asteroid. It exploded. It was large enough and moving fast enough to destroy the earth. Therefore he had to deliver at least as much KE with his body to stop it.
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Last edited by Endless Mike on Apr 9th, 2009 at 03:04 AM
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Mar 30th, 2009 01:09 PM
Especially me...i don't care if a chipmunk knocks him out, not gonna be going around being all like 'OMGZ SUPES GOT KO'ED BY A CHIPMUNK!!!!!11!!'
