KillerMovies - Movies That Matter!

REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Home » Comic Book Forums » Superman » The Problem With Superman

The Problem With Superman
Started by: bluewaterrider

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

The Problem With Superman

Articles with titles similar to the one of this thread have been around for awhile now. Part of the argument can be oversimplified and represented in a visual similar to the one below:

(please log in to view the image)

It's a well known enough problem. In fact, it's considered so well-known that the average reader will be able to get a good guess-timate of what I posted above even if a day comes when that image is eventually rendered inaccessible.

The following article covers the perceived problem more accurately and at length:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reaso...an-interesting/

I'm presenting that here, however, because the first time I read an article like that was years prior. And in the interim between the article I first read, and the one given just now above, and the present, I've seen writers and movie makers creating works that seemed designed to respond to the presentation of that problem, which is more or less that Superman is uninteresting because he is static, lacking in human relate-ability for the average viewer, lacking in growth as a character, and compelling only when he is someone else.

At the same time, however, the big and small screens have been flooded with characters who, at first glance, present Superman-style characters who SHOULD be receiving the same objections as Superman before them ... and apparently are not.

What's your take on this?

If you're a Superman fan, do you disagree with the premise of the writer of the linked article? Or perhaps actually agree with the premise in general, but believe writers have found demonstrably effective ways to deal with those issues?

If you're the fan of another hero with similar specs as Superman, how do you feel your hero avoids similar disapproving condemnation while the Man of Steel himself gets it?


Discuss.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2017 01:44 PM
bluewaterrider is currently offline Click here to Send bluewaterrider a Private Message Find more posts by bluewaterrider Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
John Murdoch
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Shell Beach

I for one enjoy Superman being the type of character that always wins, always does the right thing, and never has much of a challenge besides what new boundary he is going to inevitably break next. Whether that is Silver Age Superman/Reeve-Routh Superman, All-Star Superman, or Kingdom Come Superman, it doesn't matter to me.

There are plenty of characters in pop culture that face adversity and have to overcome it: from Batman to Captain America, Luke Skywalker to Aragorn, Neo to Indiana Jones, etc. I like that Superman (and usually the best stories associated with him) are about how he uses he almost unlimited powers to solve unique problems that only he can solve. Supes should be a character meant to have no limits that can easily best any situation thrown at him.

I understand that many find Supes "static, lacking in human relate-ability for the average viewer, lacking in growth as a character, and compelling only when he is someone else", but I enjoy him as the quintessential old-school do-gooder superhero. To me, its the biggest positive of his character, not a negative.

And I do enjoy when alternate takes on Supes are put on the page and screen (notably, Injustice Superman and Marvel Comics' Hyperion).

Old Post Jan 25th, 2017 12:32 AM
John Murdoch is currently offline Click here to Send John Murdoch a Private Message Find more posts by John Murdoch Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by John Murdoch
I for one enjoy Superman being the type of character that always wins, always does the right thing, and never has much of a challenge besides what new boundary he is going to inevitably break next. Whether that is Silver Age Superman/Reeve-Routh Superman, All-Star Superman, or Kingdom Come Superman, it doesn't matter to me.


In context of what the author of that article wrote, I'm finding your response interesting, especially your inclusion of Kingdom Come Superman in your list, because Kingdom Come Superman definitely does NOT always win, in fact, KC lost nearly everyone and everything he held dear. This fact was actually used to both highlight and illustrate one of the author's points, even as it made and still makes for one of my favorite Superman moments ever:

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

Old Post Jan 25th, 2017 09:29 PM
bluewaterrider is currently offline Click here to Send bluewaterrider a Private Message Find more posts by bluewaterrider Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

My above showing of the Kingdom Come/Earth-22/fill-in-the-blank Superman from I-remember-not-where at this moment is re or pre- peated in All-Star Superman. The young lady is even given the name of "Trixie" if memory serves.
Apparently she needs a lot of saving. Despair runs rampant in her reality.

As said before, I like that scene, and I have in fact posted it before in a favorite/ best moments thread.

I was reminded of it here, however, because the author of the title link of this thread asserts that, among other problems, Superman in his reality can do nothing about teen suicides. In this case, though, he could and did, and his message of "Don't give up, you're NOT alone, you can help the world only if you keep fighting for Life" is one that could potentially save scores of others.

Old Post Jan 26th, 2017 06:01 PM
bluewaterrider is currently offline Click here to Send bluewaterrider a Private Message Find more posts by bluewaterrider Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
John Murdoch
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Shell Beach

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
My above showing of the Kingdom Come/Earth-22/fill-in-the-blank Superman from I-remember-not-where at this moment is re or pre- peated in All-Star Superman. The young lady is even given the name of "Trixie" if memory serves.
Apparently she needs a lot of saving. Despair runs rampant in her reality.

As said before, I like that scene, and I have in fact posted it before in a favorite/ best moments thread.

I was reminded of it here, however, because the author of the title link of this thread asserts that, among other problems, Superman in his reality can do nothing about teen suicides. In this case, though, he could and did, and his message of "Don't give up, you're NOT alone, you can help the world only if you keep fighting for Life" is one that could potentially save scores of others.


Good points, bluewaterrider. I think I do remember either her character or a similar situation happening in All-Star Superman.

Old Post Jan 28th, 2017 11:04 PM
John Murdoch is currently offline Click here to Send John Murdoch a Private Message Find more posts by John Murdoch Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Surtur
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

Here is the problem I see: a superhero always winning isn't unique to Superman. 90% of them always end up winning.

Superman doesn't even always "win". Or sometimes when he does he still suffers. He's seen a lot of friends die, and failed to save people in the past.

One other thing that irks me is when people complain Superman is too powerful and thus boring. It's not that Superman is boring over that, it's that you need a talented writer to be able to write him. The All Star Superman series had an incredibly powerful Superman..it was one of his best series ever.

I never tend to see the people who have problems with his power levels complaining about the power levels of Green Lanterns, Martian Manhunter, or the Flash. Who can all be just as broken(if not moreso).

Others will say he is too much of a goody two shoes, which I feel only really applies to Silver Age Superman.


__________________
But we all got a Chicken-Duck-Woman thing waiting for us.

Last edited by Surtur on Jan 30th, 2017 at 05:43 PM

Old Post Jan 30th, 2017 05:41 PM
Surtur is online now! Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur


I never tend to see the people who have problems with his power levels complaining about the power levels of Green Lanterns, Martian Manhunter, or the Flash. Who can all be just as broken(if not moreso).




Heh.
I actually posted a complaint about Flash earlier this month; his "forum" version has been a topic for many weeks thanks to a poster named "DarkSaint" on these boards ...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This IS the appropriate [thread] for that, isn't it?

(please log in to view the image)


On the other hand, with all the "cheats" DS has shown us the Speed Force can grant the Flash, there's not really much "disrespect" being tossed about here.
Speed-Stealing, total inertial freeze, near-infinite mass punches, vibrational phasing, flight simulation, time-dilation AND time travel?

If there's a character more hax than the Flash at max potential, I'm not sure I want to read about him.

Old Post Jan 31st, 2017 03:55 AM
bluewaterrider is currently offline Click here to Send bluewaterrider a Private Message Find more posts by bluewaterrider Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur


One other thing that irks me is when people complain Superman is too powerful and thus boring. It's not that Superman is boring over that, it's that you need a talented writer to be able to write him. The All Star Superman series had an incredibly powerful Superman..it was one of his best series ever.

I never tend to see the people who have problems with his power levels complaining about the power levels of Green Lanterns, Martian Manhunter, or the Flash. Who can all be just as broken(if not moreso).




Superman is one of the most popular and famous heroes the world has ever seen. So he has extraordinary visibility. People know of him through often seen feats, those that don't ascribe ridiculous feats to him anyway because they've heard he has them -- Superman's reputation, in other words, gives power critics additional ammo.

No one would blink an eye over learning Superman did something retarded like the following, for instance:



(please log in to view the image)

Crushing a wrecking ball down to pea size?
Yeah, sounds like Superman, 1950s and 60s Superman, to be precise.


There are probably far fewer, however, that know Thor has performed similarly absurd feats at various points of his career:

(please log in to view the image)


For Thor is far lesser read by people.


See how many of the following images spark recognition ...
Note that the average comic fan will be familiar with far fewer still:

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

Old Post Jan 31st, 2017 10:57 PM
bluewaterrider is currently offline Click here to Send bluewaterrider a Private Message Find more posts by bluewaterrider Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Here is the problem I see: a superhero always winning isn't unique to Superman. 90% of them always end up winning.

Superman doesn't even always "win". Or sometimes when he does he still suffers. He's seen a lot of friends die, and failed to save people in the past.



Preaching to the choir on this specific point. I think it takes a very good writer to handle THAT type of subject matter. Here's an instance, however, where I think one did :

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

Old Post Feb 1st, 2017 05:52 AM
bluewaterrider is currently offline Click here to Send bluewaterrider a Private Message Find more posts by bluewaterrider Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur


Others will say he is too much of a goody two shoes, which I feel only really applies to Silver Age Superman.



2 responses to this one.

1. We live in an era where dark seems to be in vogue.
Note that this is not necessarily unique to the current decade. People would be shocked to learn how murderous characters like Batman were back in the day, for instance. This is however, an era which seems to be unique in how many dark, Biblical angelic type beings seem to be at the forefront.

No one comes to mind sooner than this guy:

(please log in to view the image)

This is like something straight out of Revelation.
Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, Apollo, Lord of Locusts, Apollyon, The Destroyer.

Anyone doubting author's intention here, by the way, should read what the characters themselves have to say about him.

No, Superman from virtually any era is going to be considered a Boy Scout when THIS is the mold his clones are cast in.


2. There is some proof that, after years of dark protagonists, vigilantes, and anti-heroes, people are actually welcoming a return to old fashioned superheroism. If they don't want it from Superman himself, they DO seem to want it from others who are rather like him:

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

Old Post Feb 1st, 2017 06:31 AM
bluewaterrider is currently offline Click here to Send bluewaterrider a Private Message Find more posts by bluewaterrider Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

I happened to come across the following today.
Thinking about it because we are in the era of Trump, since Superman is often an allegory for America.
Interestingly, Superman often becomes "villain" when America is acting like Sun never sets Britain, representing fascism or the like as opposed to freedom, or at the least unchecked sometimes aggressive power.
During such times, as in the recent Justice League prequel, Dawn of Justice, there is one man that typically rises up, and ...

Well, you know the rest. See what you think of the following article.

Opinions welcome:


http://www.starkafterdarkonline.com/?m=201506

Old Post Mar 16th, 2017 01:32 AM
bluewaterrider is currently offline Click here to Send bluewaterrider a Private Message Find more posts by bluewaterrider Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 12:16 AM.
  Last Thread   Next Thread

Home » Comic Book Forums » Superman » The Problem With Superman

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.