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What's wrong with X-Men: The Last Stand?
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C-3POTheClever
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What's wrong with X-Men: The Last Stand?

I've heard that loads of people don't like XMTLS, but I don't understand why, because it's really good. What is it about XMTLS that you don't like if you don't like it?

Old Post Apr 4th, 2012 12:06 PM
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Bouboumaster
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It's sucked ass.

Also, it was an insult to the continuity of the comics


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Old Post Apr 4th, 2012 02:52 PM
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the ninjak
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They killed of the holy trinity of the Xmen in one film. Xavier, Jean and Scott. Totally disrespectful.


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Old Post Apr 4th, 2012 03:01 PM
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Ingonyama
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To be more specific,

My problems with X-Men: The Last Stand come from reading the X-Men comics, and watching the 90s TV show, since I was 11 years old.

The Dark Phoenix Saga, which X-3 was supposedly based on, was largely a Cyclops and Jean Grey-centric story, about the corruption power untempered by good judgment can bring. It had been led up to for years, was well-told and well-drawn, and had an impact on the characters that is still felt today, over 32 years after the original issues were released.

In short, it's iconic.

X-Men 3 tried to integrate that story arc into about a dozen others at the same time, and as such the story that almost everyone who knows X-Men knows about became just another thread in a massively overstuffed tapestry.

The original Dark Phoenix Saga, once you strip away the extraneous space stuff, was about the threat Jean Grey posed when the power of Phoenix went to her head, and the struggle and conflict Cyclops felt while leading the team against the woman he loved. Wolverine not only didn't play as big a part in the original story, but had not one, but two chances to kill her and end the threat. But because of his own love for Jean, he couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger any more than Cyclops could.

As a result, the only person who could stop Dark Phoenix was Jean herself, through a noble act of self-sacrifice that ended the threat and saved the universe, but broke the hearts of the X-Men and the man she loved.

This is the story I wanted to see in The Last Stand. Instead, we had Cyclops and Professor Xavier, the two people who were most crucial in getting through to Jean enough for her to make that sacrifice, killed before the movie's halfway done. And Wolverine, who's gotten more than enough screen time already, became the Big Hero who led the team to victory, despite that being the role that Storm should have taken in the absence of the team's most capable leaders.

Fans of the characters of Storm, Cyclops, and Jean Grey, who were looking forward to seeing them finally step up to the plate after two movies spent as little more than window dressing for "the Wolverine show," got slapped in the face by this.

Throw in the "Mutant Cure" storyline and Magneto's mutant rebellion, both of which might have made good movies on their own given enough space and attention, and you had a confused mess with too much going on in addition to the unnecessary changes made to the theme of a classic story.

Even the Cure storyline felt messed-up. Rogue's arc was a fail of monumental proportions, since her whole raison d'etre is learning to be a happy, healthy person despite her powers. If mutants are a metaphor for oppressed minorities, then shouldn't the moral be about learning to live with your differences, rather than taking a cheap, contrived cure so you can be just like everyone else? What kind of message does that send people who can't change who they are in real life?

If you don't know or care about the comics' or characters' history outside the movies, I suppose this stuff doesn't matter. But I did care, and so I was aggravated to see what had been done. Obviously mileages may vary, but this was my experience.

X-Men 3 is one of my least favorite movies of all time, and I haven't watched another movie in the franchise since then.

Old Post Apr 4th, 2012 03:31 PM
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celestialbodies
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You know it's funny when I first saw X-men: The Last Stand I loved it, it was great but the more I thought about it the more I realized was I loved the movie but not as an X-men Movie. X1 and X2 was building to this big revelation.

Then X3 kinda went in a different direction yes it made alot of money but as far as even being an homage to the comics it wasn't. Where was the turmoil, strength, love, and ultimate sacriface. This movie became Wolverine's movie just as the last two had become he was shoehorned into a role in X3 that wasn't his to play.

This movie was very contrived they say he loved Jean but how they spent almost no time together and yet he loves her. Simply put this should of been Prof. X, Cyclops, and Phoenix as the stars of this not mere pieces to a puzzle composed of Wolverine.

Cyclops more then the others needed to finally stepup in this film and his role was instead given to Wolverine, so much was wrong, the idea that Jean would allow Phoenix to kill Scott or Xavier and yet spare Logan a man she hardly knows is a tough pill to swallow.

Old Post Apr 6th, 2012 12:18 PM
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C-3POTheClever
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by celestialbodies
The the idea that Jean would allow Phoenix to kill Scott or Xavier and yet spare Logan a man she hardly knows is a tough pill to swallow.
he tried to kill him too though didn't she? But just just couldn't coz he kept healing hemself.

Old Post Apr 6th, 2012 02:03 PM
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celestialbodies
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by C-3POTheClever
he tried to kill him too though didn't she? But just just couldn't coz he kept healing hemself.


Very true however the likelihood that Wolvie would mean anything to Jean compared to Cyke or Prof.X, that he would even be able to talk her down is stretching suspended belief a bit too much. Besides you'll notice she held back she hit him with one blast at a time which he healed then hit him again when she could of easily just flung him away or kept on him.

Honestly I like the idea of Wolverine/Phoenix over Cyclops/Phoenix however Wolverine had two movies essentially starring him and this one shouldn't of been about him.

Old Post Apr 9th, 2012 12:31 PM
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Ingonyama
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by celestialbodies
Honestly I like the idea of Wolverine/Phoenix over Cyclops/Phoenix however Wolverine had two movies essentially starring him and this one shouldn't of been about him.


I grew up loving Scott and Jean as a couple, but then I identified more with the nice-guy, isolated, put-upon nerd than I did Logan, who in the 90s felt like an archetypal, trash-talking bully. Didn't help that everyone I talked to fricking loved the guy.

Over time, I saw more of Scott's issues and flaws and more of Logan's rebellion and nobility, in large part thanks to Claremont. But the movies, for all that they overfocused on Wolverine, didn't really have that. And as a result I didn't see any chemistry between Jean Grey and the Logan on screen, even with as sexy as Hugh Jackman is.

Last edited by Ingonyama on Apr 9th, 2012 at 04:32 PM

Old Post Apr 9th, 2012 04:30 PM
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the ninjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by C-3POTheClever
he tried to kill him too though didn't she? But just just couldn't coz he kept healing hemself.


No she didn't try to kill Wolverine she held back! It was obvious she still held wild feelings for Logan. She simply wanted him to stay back so she burnt chunks of him. She turned Xavier into dust!!!!!!!

She could've done the same to the flesh on Logan's Adamantium bones.
Logan persuaded Jean to stop her madness. And Jean allowed Logan to kill her.

In the comics only Logan was able to get through to Dark Phoenix. And I guess the movie showed that as well/


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Old Post Apr 9th, 2012 05:52 PM
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jewellalw
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Good thinking..(please log in to view the image)

Last edited by jewellalw on Apr 9th, 2012 at 06:12 PM

Old Post Apr 9th, 2012 06:07 PM
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C-3POTheClever
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by the ninjak
No she didn't try to kill Wolverine she held back! It was obvious she still held wild feelings for Logan. She simply wanted him to stay back so she burnt chunks of him. She turned Xavier into dust!!!!!!!

She could've done the same to the flesh on Logan's Adamantium bones.
Logan persuaded Jean to stop her madness. And Jean allowed Logan to kill her.

In the comics only Logan was able to get through to Dark Phoenix. And I guess the movie showed that as well/

OK... I guess you win. I now have a better understanding of why people don't like it. I personally still like it, but I get it that some of the stuff is kind of ridiciolous (sorry about the bad spelling).

Old Post Apr 9th, 2012 08:48 PM
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the ninjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by C-3POTheClever
OK... I guess you win. I now have a better understanding of why people don't like it. I personally still like it, but I get it that some of the stuff is kind of ridiciolous (sorry about the bad spelling).


No probs kid you said nothing wrong. The film was still entertaining, it just killed everybody and had little to show for it.


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Old Post Apr 10th, 2012 05:42 AM
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Sixth_Winged
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I bought the x-men movie collection (1-wolverinembarrasmentrigins) just a month ago and watched the number 3 again. I found oddly found it good despite the fact that they killed my favorite character offscreen *wink*. Couple of years back, i'd get riled up just mentioning x-men 3 but now that most people cbf hating it anymore, i can't anymore too.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2012 08:54 AM
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Ingonyama
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by the ninjak

In the comics only Logan was able to get through to Dark Phoenix. And I guess the movie showed that as well/


Actually, in the comics it was Scott who got through to Jean when she was Dark Phoenix.

Jean told Logan to kill her when she wrested control of herself from the Phoenix thanks to a device Beast invented that scrambled her neurons. After Logan couldn't do it, Jean froze him and the other X-Men in place telekinetically and held them there until Scott showed up and talked her down, using the fact that he knew her, and his love for her, to appeal to Jean Grey.

It almost worked, too, until Professor Xavier psi-blasted her from behind and he and Jean sealed the Phoenix away inside her own mind.

Logan's big story arc in the comics was his inability to kill someone he loved. I thought it was one of his best, and the movie even got that part wrong.

Old Post Apr 11th, 2012 07:34 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
It's sucked ass.

Also, it was an insult to the continuity of the comics


The other two movies did the exact same thing.


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Old Post Apr 11th, 2012 09:05 PM
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Darth Jello
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If you heard David Hayter's original treatment for X-Men 3 before Brett Ratner, you would hate Last Stand too.


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Old Post Apr 12th, 2012 12:37 AM
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NemeBro
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Juggernaut was a douche in it.


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Old Post Apr 12th, 2012 05:47 AM
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mikeh123
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I suppose this stuff doesn't matter. But I did care, and so I was aggravated to see what had been done. Obviously mileages may vary, but this was my experience.(please log in to view the image)

Old Post Apr 12th, 2012 09:37 AM
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Kazenji
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Jello
If you heard David Hayter's original treatment for X-Men 3 before Brett Ratner, you would hate Last Stand too.


Pretty sure he does.


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Old Post Apr 12th, 2012 10:31 AM
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KingD19
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They squandered opportunities in it as well.

You've got Colossus and Juggernaut, ready to go at it and destroy an entire neighborhood. But you have him fight Wolverine instead?

Old Post Apr 12th, 2012 02:43 PM
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