Registered: Nov 2004
Location: The Land of Confusion
Imperial Navy surely isn`t that bad, personnel wise...I liked Needa as well, acted honorably with Vader, instead of trying to put a blame on underling.
__________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
"… his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedeom, and he shall make you stronger than they."
Sauron to Ar-Pharazôn
Not really. In reality the Rebels would have been horribly crushed at Endor. The only thing they have is the "good guys always win" rule. I mean, come on, the 501st smased all opposition in the Clone Wars, but got defeated at Endor? There is no way in hell an ewok with a stick is a more fierce opponent than a B2 or a Droideka.
Back to the Naval aspect, a few Mon Cal transport ships turned into war vessels, a Nebulon B frigate, and some fighters couldn't beat so many Start Destroyers, let alone with the Exectuor along for the ride.
__________________
Last edited by fascistcrusader on Nov 26th, 2007 at 08:27 PM
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Co-Admin
Yes, but this ISN'T reaity, it is Star Wars.
So your 'Not really' is just gibberish. YES, really. The Imperials DID lose to the Ewoks, and we didn't see the TIEs take down a single Rebel ship whilst the Rebel fighters took down Star Destroyers.
The Imperials were rubbish. Everyone knows it, it has always been true in Star Wars. Stormtroopers are crap, TIEs turned out to be crap (having started off far more even in ANH) and the naval personnel turned out to be crap as well, with the flagship going down with ease.
But yes, anyone starting off a point here trying to say how things would have gone 'in reality' needs their head checked. The fact that you quote more Star Wars fiction afterwards in support of your 'in reality' point speaks volumes.
In reality there is no Force. In reality, fighrters couldn't fly through space as if it were atmosphere, making noise as if there were atmosphere, along with the rumble of ISDs in the vacuum of space. In reality, no lightsabres or clones of that type or... any of it. What kind of completely insane argument is that, 'in reality'??!
So let's accept the whole thing is a fiction and works within the rules of that fiction. Those rules say- yes, the Rebels would win that battle.
There is no point you saying it wouldn't happen like that. It DID happen like that. End of story.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Nov 27th, 2007 at 12:53 AM
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Co-Admin
I think it is easy to try and read values into them that are not there. As far as I am concerned, he thought that was the best way to try and save his life.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
He was in charge of his ship. Thats why they have ranks anyway.
Of course it was better for him to go and apologise for his incompetence than just send a report: "We lost them. Too bad."
Maybe he even tried to reason with vader and present the obvious facts in a tad more positive light.
Registered: Nov 2004
Location: The Land of Confusion
Hmm, it makes sense, he knew that cowardice would make his position worse. I know that you strongly remind how Star Wars is very black and white tale, and there is ulimately no room for gray area, which is correct in light of some people seeking grey areas everywhere.
But still, you can be evil and have some kind of personal honor, even if based on pride. I would compare it to some of the Hitler`s Generals, like Rommel or Guderian.
And I think that victory on Endor must have seemed like miracle to the Galaxy. Ties were much more effective against Rebels in ANH, and Imperials had overwheling advantage in ESB. Not to mention the Clonetroopers in PT. It actually seems like the performance of bad guys reflects the cosmic struggle within the Force. In ROTJ even Emperor seemed blinded by his overconfidence, which I see as the reverse of the PT situation, where it was Dark Side ascending and good guys unable to see the true menace.
__________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
"… his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedeom, and he shall make you stronger than they."
Sauron to Ar-Pharazôn
Last edited by Lord Melkor on Nov 26th, 2007 at 11:00 PM
Touchy, touchy. Did I strike a nerve? In any case, if Star Wars were not a film and were in fact reality in some alternate universe, the events would have gone as I described.
About your calling all of the Empire crap: Why were they so feared if they weren't any threat? Why were stormtroopers the most feared warriors in the galaxy? Why were TIE fighters considered so deadly? Why could one Star Destroyer's presence keep an entire system in line?
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Co-Admin
As far as can be told, they were feared because there were lots of them and because they had scary war machines- they prioritised such machines over people. The abundant on-screen evidence is that they were useless- as I say, famous for it in film lore. There is nothing more entirely useless than Stormtroopers as guards in the entirity of fictional bad guys- they are synonomous with being simply dreadful. And did lose to Ewoks, after all.
No logical problem at all- all on-screen. And you saying it wouldn't happen in some alternative universe is entirely irrelevant. If you want to re-write the entire plot to suit yourself, fine. But we are discussing a set-up here by George Lucas and clearly his interpretation is that... no, the Empire would lose. Your interpretation is entirely irrelevant. And as I say, if it were in fact reality... none of it would actually be possible.
Write your own sci-fi if you want things to go your way. In GL's creation, the Empire is as it is portrayed- the type of set-up that gets thrashed at Endor.
I do get a bit touchy about extreme stupidity on display, yes.
If you want to argue that there is inconsistency then that is possible. I don't like how crap the Empire appeared to be in ROTJ, and certainly not how useless TIEs had become in comparison to ANH. But there you go, it still happened, it's still a fact, it's still the way it is... and Piett rose to the top of a structure that was, apparently, entirely useless.
What did he ever do right, anyway? Reported on a planet that might be a Rebel base. Wowsa.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Nov 27th, 2007 at 12:57 AM
Actually every source on the subject says stormtroopers are the best of the best, and that Endor was a 1 in a billion miracle. Logically speaking, they should have lost. It is only that way because the good guys have to win in the end. Just concede that point, its the truth.
Why are people attempting to apply real world logic to Star Wars?
Star Wars uses Star Wars logic. Meaning what happens only makes sense because it's SW. Sure, may seem like that's not how it should logically happen, but does it matter? No. Star Wars Logic has zero connect with reality.
The Empire was feared because they had tons of troops, not because they were particularly good. And if you want to try and pull out the whole "but the clonetroopers overran the Jedi!" thing...don't bother. It's called overwhelming numbers and element of surprise. And the stormtroopers are far worse than the clonetroopers were. A bunch of crappy troops can take down anything if there's sufficient numbers.
I can't imagine anyone actually trying to argue that the Empire was - or was meant to be - good at anything. That's just silly. And implies they've never even watched the movies.
Registered: Nov 2004
Location: The Land of Confusion
Well, they aren`t THAT bad. They are scary if you are not a hero. If you are a Rebel soldier like the one on Tantive 4, or Rebel pilot attacking the Death Star that is not Luke Skywalker, the Stormtroopers and Ties are pretty deadly.
__________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
"… his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedeom, and he shall make you stronger than they."
Sauron to Ar-Pharazôn
Nov 26th, 2007 06:34 AM
