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What was Ben's and Yoda's plan?
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Charlie512
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What was Ben's and Yoda's plan?

I think with the Prequels the actions of Ben and Yoda become very questionable.

The facts:

First, because of Rots they know how extremely powerful the Emperor is. He was around equal to Yoda in Rots and presumably since then up to Rotj he should be must more powerful.

Ben from his fight with Vader should have some idea of how powerful Vader is.

Ben and Yoda wait 20 years to train Luke and expect him in Rotj to take on and defeat Vader.

Why it doesn't make sense.

Ben and Yoda wait too long to train Luke.

According to how powerful the Emperor was, if Luke was every going to have a chance against him he needed to be trained from early childhood based on the power progression shown in the prequels with Anakin. Anakin started his training at age 9 and 10 years later in AOTC of formal Jedi training he wasn't anywhere near the power of the Emperor in Rotj. In fact, he was (if we can believe Anakin in Rots) half as powerful as himself in Rots. Anakin in Rots was weaker than Darth Vader at the time of the OT. Darth Vader in turn was only 80 percent as powerful as the Emperor in Rotj. Therefore, we have from the PT Anakin no where near the powerful to defeat Vader or the Emperor after 10 solid years of training, heck even after 3 more years of War experience it's doubful he could defeat Vader.

Given this was the power progression of the Chosen One, the guy who has had the largest number of midichlorians in his body ever, it would seem that this power progression speed would be a good max. It then stands to reason that if Yoda and Ben assumed Luke had the same amount of midichlorians as his father (maybe they did a test or something) that he would eventually progress at the same quickness or if given intense training at a faster rate. However, not that much faster. If we apply this and we seriously take these implications then we know Yoda and Ben's plan didn't make sense. If they reaslitically expected Luke to defeat the Sith his training should have started much earlier.

I know, I know you guys are going to say "but if they trained him it would cause ripples in the force and the empire would find them" which ok I understand but then if that's the case they should have thought of a new plan. Because realistically they were foolish to think that Luke could defeat the Sith with the amount of training they gave him. Besides this ripple theory hasn't ever been proven and there is actually evidence to the contrary. When Yoda trained Luke in ESB the Sith never sensed anything nor could they find Luke. The fear seemed unfounded.

Considering Luke's skills and power in ROTJ and what Yoda knew of the Emperor's power, they should have known that he didn't stand a chance against him. He probably didn't even stand a chance against Vader at full power. Yet they send him off telling him he was ready. Bullsh*t. They are basically sending him to his death.
They might as well have sent Mace's posse and expected them to do better. Fans will say that they were counting on Vader to turn and destroy the Emperor, but this isn't supported by what Yoda and Ben say. They say Vader is gone and that the Dark Side forever controls your destiny.In short, the PT completely destroys any validity that Ben and Yoda's plan could have had.

If they were really intent on destroying the Sith what they should have done was after Yoda had run away from defeat against the Emperor in Rots. He should have joined with Obi-Wan and then gone to try to assassinate the Sith again. Vader was severely weakened and the Emperor wasn't as strong as he would later be. Combined they could have produced a bigger threat to the Sith than Luke ever could at the time of Rotj (powerwise that is, no one counted on Luke's power of compassion).

In short, Yoda and Ben's plan doesn't make any sense at all.

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2012 03:41 AM
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Darth Thor
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Re: What was Ben's and Yoda's plan?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512


Ben and Yoda wait 20 years to train Luke and expect him in Rotj to take on and defeat Vader.


Lol which he did.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
According to how powerful the Emperor was, if Luke was every going to have a chance against him he needed to be trained from early childhood based on the power progression shown in the prequels with Anakin. Anakin started his training at age 9 and 10 years later in AOTC of formal Jedi training he wasn't anywhere near the power of the Emperor in Rotj.


Luke began his training as an adult. His training was obviously much faster than Anakin's.

And I personally dnt think anyone expected Luke to go win a sword fight against the Emporer. Wars do not really get won like that. I think the Skywalkers using their powers to be the best pilots in the galaxy was a much more useful tool against the Empire. After all that's what destroyed the Death Star.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
Anakin in Rots was weaker than Darth Vader at the time of the OT. Darth Vader in turn was only 80 percent as powerful as the Emperor in Rotj. Therefore, we have from the PT Anakin no where near the powerful to defeat Vader or the Emperor after 10 solid years of training, heck even after 3 more years of War experience it's doubful he could defeat Vader.


Lol you're confused because you're wrong here. OT Vader's power level is more on par with Count Dooku's, or Darth Maul's (according to Lucas in a Rolling Stones Interview).

ROTS Anakin was considerably more powerful than that as we saw with his tooling of Count Dooku. Id actually go as far as saying ROTS Anakin was probably as powerful as the Emporer, when his head was clear that is. His main problem was the Emporer had spent 13 years messing with his head, so he was confused where his loyalties lied.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512


If they were really intent on destroying the Sith what they should have done was after Yoda had run away from defeat against the Emperor in Rots. He should have joined with Obi-Wan and then gone to try to assassinate the Sith again. Vader was severely weakened and the Emperor wasn't as strong as he would later be. Combined they could have produced a bigger threat to the Sith than Luke ever could at the time of Rotj (powerwise that is, no one counted on Luke's power of compassion).



It was a one off chance they had to asassinate the Sith. After that I dnt think you would catch either of them alone like that. Without an army of storm troopers, or on board a Super-Star Destroyer, Death Star e.t.c.

Like I said I doubt they expected Luke to go sword fight the Emporer. Even if he was good enough to do so, he would not have got anywhere near the Emporer (if the Emporer didn't wish it).

But even as of ESB Palpatine foresaw Luke destroying him. As Luke's powers grew the bigger threat he would be as a soldier and pilot against the Empire.

Also I think the more his prescence with the Light Side of the Force grew the more The Emporer's vision of the future would cloud, (kind of like the way the Darth Sidious clouded the Jedi's vision in the PT), which is why he didn't see his death coming. Of course that's just a theory.

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2012 05:11 PM
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ares834
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Re: Re: What was Ben's and Yoda's plan?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol you're confused because you're wrong here. OT Vader's power level is more on par with Count Dooku's, or Darth Maul's (according to Lucas in a Rolling Stones Interview).


Lucas never said that. He claims that Vader became like Dooku and Maul in that he was no longer this guy with some super potential who could have surpassed the Emperor. I other words, he is like Maul and Dooku as he can't become more powerful than the Emperor.


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Old Post Mar 4th, 2012 06:54 AM
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Darth Thor
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Re: Re: Re: What was Ben's and Yoda's plan?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Lucas never said that. He claims that Vader became like Dooku and Maul in that he was no longer this guy with some super potential who could have surpassed the Emperor. I other words, he is like Maul and Dooku as he can't become more powerful than the Emperor.


If I remember the quote exactly it went:

"From then on, he was never as powerful as the Emporer. More like a Darth Maul or a Count Dooku."

From then on was referring to from when Obi-Wan beat him up.

Also in ESB audio commentary Lucas says about Vader "He's lost a lot of power and a lot of potential to become more powerful than the Emporer" So he's referring to Vader as of ESB and comparing him to before he got beat up by Obi-Wan, i.e. ROTS.

And he wasn't just talking about potential. Because he specifically mentions Power and Potential. Both. And notice how he doesn't say he's completely lost all potential to ever match or surpass the Emporer. Just that he's lost a lot of his potential to do that.

Either way the point being OT Vader is not as Powerful as Jedi Anakin at his peak (the point when he tooled Count Dooku.)

Unless you think Anakin at his peak was still less than 80% of the Emporer in power. Which would make Dooku what? 50-60% of Sidious at most. I doubt that.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Mar 4th, 2012 at 02:14 PM

Old Post Mar 4th, 2012 02:11 PM
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ares834
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What was Ben's and Yoda's plan?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]If I remember the quote exactly it went:

"From then on, he was never as powerful as the Emporer. More like a Darth Maul or a Count Dooku."

From then on was referring to from when Obi-Wan beat him up.


"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

This is the exact quote. He isn't saying that Vader is as powerful as Maul or Dooku, but rather, like them, he is not "more powerful than he (Sidious) was".

quote:
Also in ESB audio commentary Lucas says about Vader "He's lost a lot of power and a lot of potential to become more powerful than the Emporer" So he's referring to Vader as of ESB and comparing him to before he got beat up by Obi-Wan, i.e. ROTS.


Once again here is the full quote.

"At this point, Vader's motives are to convince him to come with him; join the dark side. Together, they're going to overthrow the Emperor. Which is the thematic device that's used throughout the whole movie is that in terms of Sith, two of them gang up and become the dominant Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it, if he hadn't been debilitated and now he's half machine, half man. He's lost a lot of his power of the Force, he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful than the Emperor. But Luke has it. Luke is Vader's hope."

Power in the force refers to, yes, potential. After all, in the movies characters say others are "strong in the force" when they are untrained and still "weak". Furthermore, at the scene Lucas is reffering to with this quote, Luke is not more powerful than Vader. So it's clear that by "power of the force" Lucas means potential. But it's a moot point as I...

quote:
Either way the point being OT Vader is not as Powerful as Jedi Anakin at his peak (the point when he tooled Count Dooku.)


Never said he was...


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Old Post Mar 4th, 2012 05:48 PM
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Darth Thor
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What was Ben's and Yoda's plan?

First of all thanks for the exact quotes.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."


You see theres 2 sentences here. The first:

From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

That sure sounds to me like he's saying he's now not as powerful as the emporer, his power is more in the league of Maul or Dooku.

He didnt say "from then on he wasn't stronger than the emporer anymore". No he said "From then on, he wasn't as strong as the emporer."

If by power he meant potential like you say, then he wouldn't have said "as strong." Because we know Anakin's potential is like double that of the Emporer's.

Of course there is a chance Lucas all mighty has just made a grammatical error by saying "as strong" instead of "stronger". But in that case he's just saying Vader's potential is now in league with Maul's or Dooku's.



Anyway then there's this:

He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Now he's clearly talking about potential. And what Vader should have been by now, but what Luke could still become. He doesn't say "Luke is that powerful" which is what he would have said if by power he meant potential like your implying.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834


Once again here is the full quote.

"At this point, Vader's motives are to convince him to come with him; join the dark side. Together, they're going to overthrow the Emperor. Which is the thematic device that's used throughout the whole movie is that in terms of Sith, two of them gang up and become the dominant Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it, if he hadn't been debilitated and now he's half machine, half man. He's lost a lot of his power of the Force, he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful than the Emperor. But Luke has it. Luke is Vader's hope."

Power in the force refers to, yes, potential. After all, in the movies characters say others are "strong in the force" when they are untrained and still "weak". Furthermore, at the scene Lucas is reffering to with this quote, Luke is not more powerful than Vader. So it's clear that by "power of the force" Lucas means potential.


First in the movies they do differentiate between power and potential. When they say in Episode 1 about Anakin "the Force is strong with him" but no one calls him powerful at that point.

Palpatine says to Anakin in AOTC "I see you're becoming the most powerful of all the Jedi. Even more powerful than Master Yoda." He specifically says "Becoming" not that he is already more powerful than them.

Lastly Sidious tells Yoda in ROTS "You will not stop me. Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Again "will become". Not "already is".

Now from this:

He's lost a lot of his power of the Force, he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful than the Emperor. But Luke has it. Luke is Vader's hope.

He's said 2 things here. 1) He's lost a lot of power, and 2) he's lost a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emporer (i.e potential).

Then when he says "Luke has it." Thats right after the potential part. So I dnt see at any point Lucas saying "Luke is more powerful than Vader" as of ESB. If he did then we would know he's talking about potential when he says "power"





quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Never said he was...


Ah right. I made the initial comment because the other poster claimed OT Vader was a lot more powerful than ROTS Anakin.

Old Post Mar 4th, 2012 08:09 PM
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Charlie512
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You do know the Emperor got much stronger over the break between Rots and Rotj right?

Routh estimates of Force Powers:
Max Potential Anakin 200
The Emperor Rotj - 100
Darth Vader -80
Yoda-80
Darth Sidious Rots-80
Dooku - 75
Anakin Skywalker -70
Obi-Wan 70

Anakin was far weaker than Sidious and Yoda in the force in Rots. Yoda and Sidious were throwing around Senate pods, Anakin has no such feats. He couldn't even beat Obi-Wan (who would get thrashed against Sidious) in a force push contest. The claim that Anakin is weaker than OT Vader is also supported by the fact Vader had 20+ years to train in the Dark Side, he was a "master of evil" aka of the Dark Side by ANH. He was nowhere near a master of the force circa Rots.

Darth Vader (10 years Jedi training, 3 years CW experience , 20+ years learning the Dark Side from Sidious) > Anakin Skywalker Rots

It's doubtful Anakin could even beat Dooku in a force contest, since Dooku casually took out Obi-Wan with the force when Darth Vader pre-mustafar couldn't while enraged.

Also you do realize that there is no such thing as "The Light Side" of the force right?

Last edited by Charlie512 on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:14 PM

Old Post Mar 4th, 2012 10:11 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
You do know the Emperor got much stronger over the break between Rots and Rotj right?

Routh estimates of Force Powers:
Max Potential Anakin 200
The Emperor Rotj - 100
Darth Vader -80
Yoda-80
Darth Sidious Rots-80
Dooku - 75
Anakin Skywalker -70
Obi-Wan 70

Anakin was far weaker than Sidious and Yoda in the force in Rots. Yoda and Sidious were throwing around Senate pods, Anakin has no such feats. He couldn't even beat Obi-Wan (who would get thrashed against Sidious) in a force push contest. The claim that Anakin is weaker than OT Vader is also supported by the fact Vader had 20+ years to train in the Dark Side, he was a "master of evil" aka of the Dark Side by ANH. He was nowhere near a master of the force circa Rots.

Darth Vader (10 years Jedi training, 3 years CW experience , 20+ years learning the Dark Side from Sidious) > Anakin Skywalker Rots

It's doubtful Anakin could even beat Dooku in a force contest, since Dooku casually took out Obi-Wan with the force when Darth Vader pre-mustafar couldn't while enraged.

Also you do realize that there is no such thing as "The Light Side" of the force right?


Wait wait wait.. You talking about Force TK only??

In that case yes OT Vader is above ROTS Anakin. As is Count Dooku for that matter. They have a Mastery of Force TK that ROTS Anakin just doesn't seem to have.

But ROTS Jedi Anakin has the most raw power of all the above. Although we've only seen him apply that power effeciently in a sword fight.

Lucas has said it clearly Vader lost A LOT of power in the force when he got beat up by Obi-Wan.

In short OT Vader has got better force telekinesis than ROTS Anakin. But ROTS Anakin is still simply more powerful. If he fights the way he fought against Dooku, then OT Vader would not fair much better than Count Dooku did.

(Although it's a bit wierd talking about Anakin fighting Vader roll eyes (sarcastic) )

Old Post Mar 5th, 2012 05:51 PM
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Charlie512
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wait wait wait.. You talking about Force TK only??

In that case yes OT Vader is above ROTS Anakin. As is Count Dooku for that matter. They have a Mastery of Force TK that ROTS Anakin just doesn't seem to have.

But ROTS Jedi Anakin has the most raw power of all the above. Although we've only seen him apply that power effeciently in a sword fight.

Lucas has said it clearly Vader lost A LOT of power in the force when he got beat up by Obi-Wan.

In short OT Vader has got better force telekinesis than ROTS Anakin. But ROTS Anakin is still simply more powerful. If he fights the way he fought against Dooku, then OT Vader would not fair much better than Count Dooku did.

(Although it's a bit wierd talking about Anakin fighting Vader roll eyes (sarcastic) )

I am talking about Mastery of the force, which means being able to use the force for different powers. TK is simply one out of many powers the force gives.
And this is precisely what I am talking about since I started the thread discussing Luke's gain in force power.

I really am not considering sword fighting skills as this doesn't primarily come from Mastery of the force (ie. force knowledge).
If you want to say Anakin Skywalker was a better duelist than OT Vader than go ahead but I don't see how it's relevant.

It would only be relevant if Yoda was planning that Luke defeat Vader in a duel. However, this isn't so, as we never even see Yoda train Luke with a lightsaber but rather teach him about the force.

Thus what I have an issue with Yoda thinking Luke was powerful enough ( in the force), to take on Vader or the Emperor. Considering both of them had far surpassed Anakin Skywalker from ROTS.

And this was Anakin Skywalker with 10 years of Jedi Training and 3 years of clone wars experience.

It doesn't make sense that Yoda would plan to train Luke so late and for so little time to face up against Sith Lords that were much more powerful than the Chosen One in ROTS.

Ya dig? And you are the one that brought up Anakin fighting Vader.
roll eyes (sarcastic) I was simply comparing their power.

Old Post Mar 6th, 2012 06:24 AM
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Darth Thor
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^ Power can be applied in different ways. A sword fight being one of the main combat applications the Jedi use.

Dooku's knowledge of the Force was a joke to Anakin in ROTS. So despite not having the same versatility with the Force Anakin was simply more powerful. And he was more powerful than OT Vader, as Lucas has said himself. Read the above quotes.

And of course Yoda had to train Luke in the Force. Lol. They Sword fight using the Force.

If Anakin was able to stomp Count Dooku, then I don't see why you can not accept that Luke could defeat Vader. You keep talking about this 10 years plus training, but does it not occur to you that maybe Luke was just a faster study than Anakin??

Also I don't think Yoda expected Luke to go face the Emporer in a sword fight as of ROTJ tbh.

Old Post Mar 6th, 2012 10:43 AM
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queeq
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To me, these problems were created mainly by the PT... there's a number of things that kinda make situations in the OT ridiculous... And I don't understand that...


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2012 07:52 AM
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Darth Thor
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^ Lol Queeq, you blaming the PT? Im shocked!!!

But yeah I admit no one thought of Luke's training as being too fast before the PT..

It was quite clear in the OT when Yoda says to Luke "No more training do you require" and when Vader says to Luke "Your skills are now complete.."

Old Post Mar 7th, 2012 10:55 AM
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queeq
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I'm not blaming the PT, I'm blaming the filmmakers who clearly began to create the SW universe as they had it ideally in mind. To me, the universe they created in 1977-1983 seemed of lesser importance.

For Lucas the starting point of SW was prior to ANH, with a universe he had in mind and a vague idea of a large story he wanted to make. He made what he could at the time... but he says the PT looks what he ALWAYS had in mind.

For us ANH, ESB and ROTJ are how and when we got to know the SW world and clearly from that POV the PT doesn't match very well. I think Lucas thinks the OT doesn't match very well with his original vision which of course predates the OT (and developed well after that, but he seems to ingore that fact). So I can understand his dissatisfaction now with the OT. On the other hand: the stories and scripts of the OT are a lot better, they seemed to try harder to make it work, it made him a fortune AND the possibility to make the PT at all... So treating the OT a bit more as canon instead of the original vision would have been nice.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2012 07:32 AM
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Darth Thor
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True say.

Old Post Mar 8th, 2012 10:21 AM
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queeq
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So say we all.


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Old Post Mar 9th, 2012 07:57 PM
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Charlie512
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Power can be applied in different ways. A sword fight being one of the main combat applications the Jedi use.

Dooku's knowledge of the Force was a joke to Anakin in ROTS. So despite not having the same versatility with the Force Anakin was simply more powerful. And he was more powerful than OT Vader, as Lucas has said himself. Read the above quotes.

And of course Yoda had to train Luke in the Force. Lol. They Sword fight using the Force.

If Anakin was able to stomp Count Dooku, then I don't see why you can not accept that Luke could defeat Vader. You keep talking about this 10 years plus training, but does it not occur to you that maybe Luke was just a faster study than Anakin??

Also I don't think Yoda expected Luke to go face the Emporer in a sword fight as of ROTJ tbh.

Except sword fighting skills are mainly improved by practicing well...sword fighting, not necessarily with Mastery of the Force. Just because you are stronger than the force does not mean you are good with a light saber. Just like Sidious was more powerful in the force than Mace yet still lost in a duel. Just like Vader is more powerful in the force, yet still not as good as Anakin in sword fighting. You can be a Master of the force, but if you don't practice sword fighting you can be defeated by someone who does.

Anyways...
Lol. That is plain wrong. If Dooku's knowledge in the force paled in comparison to Anakin's, then Anakin should have stomped Obi-Wan, yet he didn't. And yet Dooku did.. hmmm.
And yes Vader lost a lot of power in the force after mustafar but gained it back and surpassed his previous self in the 20 years following ROTS while studying the Dark Side.

Except, Darth Vader is more powerful than Anakin Skywalker in ROTS. Luke with that amount of training shouldn't be anywhere near Vader. Its doubtful he could even defeat someone like Kit Fisto.

But even then, if you don't agree that Vader > Anakin, which I can understand why you wouldn't. How would Ben and Yoda know how strong Vader was around the time of OT. You might say "Well Ben fought Vader in ANH...". But, this was after they had planned out the whole thing. And it doesn't explain why they waited so long to train Luke. If they didn't know how strong Vader was, why not train Luke to be the strongest?

Canonically, Vader is powerful.

Unless, you want to go simply by the OT films which portray Vader as not being that great.

But then that defeats what was given to us by the PT. confused

Inconsistencies??

Last edited by Charlie512 on Mar 10th, 2012 at 09:17 AM

Old Post Mar 10th, 2012 09:06 AM
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Charlie512
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I'll answer my own thread. The reason the plan doesn't make sense if because Luke's progression seems too fast based on what the PT establishes. However, I recognize that this isn't the case. I don't think Luke's power increases too fast (well at first I did), but instead that Anakin's power increases far too slow. Since the OT, was established before the PT, the PT has the flaw. It just messes everything up since OT and PT are both supreme canon so there is no way for one thing to trump the other. Since, they both make two halves of one story. What this ultimately does is lower the quality of the Saga as a whole.

Anakin is far too weak by AOTC. He is the Chosen One, with more midichlorians (and thus more potential, meaning higher peak and faster natural progression) than any other Jedi or Sith ever. Yet he is not anything special. His power is far too low. It's arguable that even Obi-Wan at the same level of training is more powerful. He certainly has bigger feats with killing a Sith Lord at yet still a Padwan, vs Anakin who is really incompetent at that stage.

According to how fast Luke's power grew. By ROTS, Anakin should have been far more powerful than he was. Challenging Sidious, Yoda and Mace in force power, yet he is nowhere close. Anakin should have torn up Obi-Wan with the force in their battle in Mustafar. He had a lot of raw power, he was enraged and filled with the Dark Side, he should have slaughtered Obi-Wan with the force. Yet he conveniently never uses it except to counter a force push.

Anakin should have been a prodigy in the force. He should have done things that were considered impossible. His power should have been something like Galen Marek's (maybe that's why I like him; because he's what Anakin never was in terms of power). Any way, Anakin was nerfed in the PT for some reason.

So, to answer the thread, Ben and Yoda's plan, now seems very flawed because of the prequels .

Last edited by Charlie512 on Mar 12th, 2012 at 10:38 AM

Old Post Mar 12th, 2012 10:31 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
Except sword fighting skills are mainly improved by practicing well...sword fighting, not necessarily with Mastery of the Force.


And Dooku had far more experience than Anakin but that did not help him? In fact going by this "it's all about experience" theory, no one should last 2 seconds against Yoda in a Sword fight. And yet both Dooku and Sidious have competed against the old Jedi.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
Just because you are stronger than the force does not mean you are good with a light saber. Just like Sidious was more powerful in the force than Mace yet still lost in a duel. Just like Vader is more powerful in the force, yet still not as good as Anakin in sword fighting. You can be a Master of the force, but if you don't practice sword fighting you can be defeated by someone who does.



Mastery of the force (as far as I understand) increases one's connection to the Force. Of course having huge amounts of raw power (like Luke or Anakin) can also speed up that connection (or power in the force).

That connection/power can be applied in 2 different ways (for combat purposes), 1). Telekinesis, or 2) Power, strength, speed, reflexes to use in Saber fighting.

Remember Dooku makes this distinction in AOTC "Surely this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a Lightsaber"..



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
Anyways...
Lol. That is plain wrong. If Dooku's knowledge in the force paled in comparison to Anakin's, then Anakin should have stomped Obi-Wan, yet he didn't. And yet Dooku did.. hmmm.


No sorry that's not what I meant. I was quoting from the ROTS novel where it stated "Dooku's knowledge of the Force has become a Joke" during his fight with Anakin. In other words he does have much more knowledge of the Force than Anakin but it was just no use to him against Anakin's raw power.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
And yes Vader lost a lot of power in the force after mustafar but gained it back and surpassed his previous self in the 20 years following ROTS while studying the Dark Side.


Lol it wasn't exactly proportional. Yes clearly his mastery of the force and telekinesis improved a lot over the years, but I doubt it was far beyond the likes Count Dooku's. In another quote above Lucas says Vader was "From them on never as strong as the Emporer. He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.."

And the quote where he's saying he's lost a lot of power since getting cut in 2, he's saying it in the Empire Strikes Back audio commentary. So he's comparing OT Vader to ROTS Anakin, saying Vader has a lot less power. Although granted he's probably talking about the Raw Power Anakin had at his disposal at the time of ROTS.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
Except, Darth Vader is more powerful than Anakin Skywalker in ROTS.


Theres just nothing to suggest this. Yes he was probably better at using Telekinesis, but so was Count Dooku. And like I said the novel states all that force knowledge of his being a Joke next to Anakin's raw power.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
Luke with that amount of training shouldn't be anywhere near Vader. Its doubtful he could even defeat someone like Kit Fisto.


Again Dooku had like 2 or 3 generations more experience than Anakin. And we saw what happened there. Also Yoda had centuries more experience than Sidious, and yet did not defeat him. The experience thing is clearly not directly proportional in Star Wars.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
But even then, if you don't agree that Vader > Anakin, which I can understand why you wouldn't. How would Ben and Yoda know how strong Vader was around the time of OT. You might say "Well Ben fought Vader in ANH...". But, this was after they had planned out the whole thing. And it doesn't explain why they waited so long to train Luke. If they didn't know how strong Vader was, why not train Luke to be the strongest?


They were keeping Luke in hiding until "the time was right".. Im not sure exactly what their plan was, and I doubt things went exactly according to plan. I guess they thought they could make Luke or Leia powerful enough to overthrow the Emporer in like 5 to 10 years of training or something.

But just look at this: With a few days of training, Luke destroyed the Death Star. Thats more important than who wins a Force fight. So their plan wasn't completely flawed.

Also in the PT the Emporer blocked the vision off all the Jedi. Whilst in ROTJ the Emporer's vision was blocked. He couldn't see his own death and Vader's betrayal. So perhaps all that was needed was for Luke to become a Jedi, be completely on the Light Side which would cause a ripple in the Dark Side. Maybe. Just a theory. I just don't think it was all about who wins a Lightsaber fight.

Old Post Mar 12th, 2012 11:45 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

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Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
I'll answer my own thread. The reason the plan doesn't make sense if because Luke's progression seems too fast based on what the PT establishes. However, I recognize that this isn't the case. I don't think Luke's power increases too fast (well at first I did), but instead that Anakin's power increases far too slow. Since the OT, was established before the PT, the PT has the flaw. It just messes everything up since OT and PT are both supreme canon so there is no way for one thing to trump the other. Since, they both make two halves of one story. What this ultimately does is lower the quality of the Saga as a whole. Anakin is far too weak by AOTC. He is the Chosen One, with more midichlorians (and thus more potential, meaning higher peak and faster natural progression) than any other Jedi or Sith ever. Yet he is not anything special. His power is far too low. It's arguable that even Obi-Wan at the same level of training is more powerful. He certainly has bigger feats with killing a Sith Lord at yet still a Padwan, vs Anakin who is really incompetent at that stage.


Oh Sorry for the late reply. Didn't mean for you to answer your own post.

Yes perhaps Luke was just a faster learner than Anakin. Also if I remember correctly Anakin complains about Obi-Wan and the Jedi holding him back in AOTC. Perhaps they just didn't hold Luke back. Gave him like a crash course in Jedi training. Also I do think Luke starting as an adult would speed up his training.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
According to how fast Luke's power grew. By ROTS, Anakin should have been far more powerful than he was. Challenging Sidious, Yoda and Mace in force power, yet he is nowhere close. Anakin should have torn up Obi-Wan with the force in their battle in Mustafar. He had a lot of raw power, he was enraged and filled with the Dark Side, he should have slaughtered Obi-Wan with the force. Yet he conveniently never uses it except to counter a force push.


I think the dominant opinion is that Anakin's head was pretty screwed up when he fought Obi-Wan which is why he did not fight as effectively as he did against Count Dooku.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Charlie512
Anakin should have been a prodigy in the force. He should have done things that were considered impossible. His power should have been something like Galen Marek's (maybe that's why I like him; because he's what Anakin never was in terms of power).


I dnt think we're supposed to mention EU stuff in this forum.

But I do think you are underestimating how powerful Anakin was by ROTS. Tooling Count Dooku (a guy who we saw competing against Yoda in the previous film) was no small showing. He certainly had the raw power at his disposal, although his focus was a little twisted at times, which probably effected his combat ability.

Remember one of Qui-Gon/ Liam Neeson/ Legend's first lessons to Anakin in TPM "Always remember your focus determines your reality". He probably should have spent more time reflecting on that!

Last edited by Darth Thor on Mar 12th, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Old Post Mar 12th, 2012 11:58 AM
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Charlie512
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Registered: Dec 2011
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And Dooku had far more experience than Anakin but that did not help him? In fact going by this "it's all about experience" theory, no one should last 2 seconds against Yoda in a Sword fight. And yet both Dooku and Sidious have competed against the old Jedi.

Dooku may have been caught off guard by Anakin's aggressiveness sort of how Vader was caught off guard by Luke in ROTJ.
Except you are confusing what I mean, generally no one should last to long in a force contest against a 800 year old Jedi, but the way I would this would be that Yoda is very small and that although his midi concentration is high his overall midi quantity is small. Thus his long life has caused him to be able to overcome this limitation and catch up to those with lots of midis.

However, light saber combat is different , you can primarily get better at lightsaber combat with practice. And before the Sith showed up in TPM its possible the Jedi did not practice sword fighting extensively. Yoda probably doesn't practice to much since he is always sitting down sending other Jedi to missions. And Yoda is very very old, this probably has had an impact on his combat ability .




Mastery of the force (as far as I understand) increases one's connection to the Force. Of course having huge amounts of raw power (like Luke or Anakin) can also speed up that connection (or power in the force).

Mastery of the force to me means "has more force knowledge" and meditates and exercises on that knowledge to increase connection to the force (power).

That connection/power can be applied in 2 different ways (for combat purposes), 1). Telekinesis, or 2) Power, strength, speed, reflexes to use in Saber fighting.

Remember Dooku makes this distinction in AOTC "Surely this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a Lightsaber"..

[/B]
I can only guess that Yoda was going easy on Dooku. In ROTS, Yoda was going head to head with Sidious who was more powerful in the force to Dooku.

No sorry that's not what I meant. I was quoting from the ROTS novel where it stated "Dooku's knowledge of the Force has become a Joke" during his fight with Anakin. In other words he does have much more knowledge of the Force than Anakin but it was just no use to him against Anakin's raw power.

Oh, my bad.
So, did Anakin not have this raw power in AOTC? If he did why didn't it help him much then? And where was this raw power in his fight vs Obi-Wan?



Lol it wasn't exactly proportional. Yes clearly his mastery of the force and telekinesis improved a lot over the years, but I doubt it was far beyond the likes Count Dooku's. In another quote above Lucas says Vader was "From them on never as strong as the Emporer. He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.."


Which even if only as powerful as Maul or Dooku, Luke circa ROTJ shouldn't stand a chance against that power.
And you have to agree that Darth Vader got far more powerful than right after mustafar, if not then why did he become a Master of the Dark Side? Not to mention he felt confident in his fight against Ben in ANH. If he wasn't as powerful as back then, why did he say he was now a master and then he was a learner? Does this not indicate he considered himself more powerful than ever before?


And the quote where he's saying he's lost a lot of power since getting cut in 2, he's saying it in the Empire Strikes Back audio commentary. So he's comparing OT Vader to ROTS Anakin, saying Vader has a lot less power. Although granted he's probably talking about the Raw Power Anakin had at his disposal at the time of ROTS.

What is Lucas definition of power?

Theres just nothing to suggest this. Yes he was probably better at using Telekinesis, but so was Count Dooku. And like I said the novel states all that force knowledge of his being a Joke next to Anakin's raw power.
I think it is held that Dooku's form of sword fighting was his downfall to Anakin. His form couldnt handle the agressiveness of Anakin. I don't think Darth Vader would have that problem.

Again Dooku had like 2 or 3 generations more experience than Anakin. And we saw what happened there. Also Yoda had centuries more experience than Sidious, and yet did not defeat him. The experience thing is clearly not directly proportional in Star Wars.

I am not talking only about experience but also of knowledge.
Sidious and Yoda had about the same amount of knowledge in the dark side and the force respectively.


They were keeping Luke in hiding until "the time was right".. Im not sure exactly what their plan was, and I doubt things went exactly according to plan. I guess they thought they could make Luke or Leia powerful enough to overthrow the Emporer in like 5 to 10 years of training or something.

What does that mean? Why not train Luke immediately??

And I just thought of would could be a potential plot hole. Given that Obi-Wan left Anakin for dead, he wouldn't have known that Anakin was alive in Vader. So why would they send the twins off and plan to train them "when the time was right" if they didn't even know Darth Vader was still alive? So was it the Emperor that they planned to defeat with the twins? But Ben never mentions the Emperor in ANH.. What was the plan again?

If it was the Emperor considering how powerful the Emperor was they should have started training as soon as possible. And Yoda should have told Luke straight up that his power was insignificant to the Emperor's, yet he said "no more training do you require". How does any of this make sense?
.


But just look at this: With a few days of training, Luke destroyed the Death Star. Thats more important than who wins a Force fight. So their plan wasn't completely flawed.

Made only possible by the death star plans the rebel alliance acquired. An alliance Ben and Yoda didn't know would exist. .

Also in the PT the Emporer blocked the vision off all the Jedi. Whilst in ROTJ the Emporer's vision was blocked. He couldn't see his own death and Vader's betrayal. So perhaps all that was needed was for Luke to become a Jedi, be completely on the Light Side which would cause a ripple in the Dark Side. Maybe. Just a theory. I just don't think it was all about who wins a Lightsaber fight.
I don't really understand your theory, could you elaborate.

Old Post Mar 16th, 2012 02:29 AM
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