What was his combat style? Ie direct, stealth, manipulation etc.
How skilled was his tactical acumen? (Large scale tactics - fleet vs fleet, armies vs armies, commandership/generalship)
How skilled was his tactical strategy? (Person vs person intelligencem duels, assassinations, etc.)
How fast was he?
How strong/skilled was he in direct force powers? (Force lightening, tk, force buffing himself with speed, reflexes, etc and all other exotic powers). Also where does he rank in top 5 for top 5 most powerful force users?
Ie
1. De sidious
2.???
3. Caedus
How strong was he with indirect force powers? (Battle meditation, seeing future, precognition, cloaking himself, illusions) and how does he rank compared to the top others?
1
2
3
Etc
What known force powers did he have? (Ie invisibility, illusions, mind control, tk, force gip, drain, lightening, etc)
How skilled/powerful was he in regards to melee/saber to saber combat? Also wher does he rank among the top saber users?
Ie
1.luke
2.yoda
3.???
Etc etc
How high was his damage soak, endurance/stamina? (Ie could out last someone, take injury, fight through pain)
How resilliant was he to incoming offensive force powers? (Ie how resistant to force lightening, force tk, illusions, mind control, etc)
A mix of both. He wasn't Palpatine/Lumiya-class stealthy, but he tried to keep his hands relatively clean until push came to shove.
He was no Thrawn or Zaarin or Ackbar, but due to battle meditation and moderate intellect, he managed all right. It was just in the presence of a formidable foe that he lost his composure. If 10 is Thrawn, Caedus was about a 5, IMHO.
He was a superior political strategist than a military tactician; he successfully manipulated many of the main characters and hid his involvement in Mara Jade's death from Luke and Ben for a while, not to mention he pulled the rug out from under Cal Omas and Gilad Pellaeon. If Palpatine was a 10 in terms of political strategy, Caedus was about a 7.
Fast enough to block a sneak attack by an outrageously pissed off Luke Skywalker.
The recent Fate of the Jedi books is littered with generic accolades for him, along the lines of "powerful" to "extremely powerful." He believed, early in Legacy of the Force, that he was second only to Luke as a Jedi. I'd say, as a Jedi, he was top tier. As a Sith, he was more than a match for Kyle Katarn and a group of Jedi Knights and padawans, though I wouldn't say by a lot. The jacket to Invincible says his Force powers were greater than Darth Vader's.
So, honestly? I'd say before his death he probably was second only to Luke in terms of straight up power.
I'd say he's pretty decent here. In the Dark Nest crisis, he demonstrated enough skill to manipulate Luke with illusions (though this shifted to Luke's advantage in Legacy of the Force, suggesting that a person's state of mind is important to resisting illusions). They made a big deal about his battle meditation and ability to cloak himself. In terms of esoteric/indirect Force powers, he's on par with Luke in some ways and better than him in others.
All the above?
In Fury, he defeated Kyle Katarn (the new Jedi Order's battle instructor) and Katarn's group of Knights and padawans, he held his own against an outrageously pissed off Luke Skywalker, and despite disadvantages, dominated his fight with Jaina.
Again, I'd say he's top tier in the new Jedi Order era.
He gets top marks here; Caedus probably has the highest pain threshold in the new Jedi Order era and one of the highest in the mythos.
Again, it depended on his state of mind. He went from calm and calculating, able to manipulate Luke Skywalker in the Dark Nest Trilogy to being deranged, homicidal, and paranoid, and subsequently lost any sort of advantage he possessed.
He was easily top five of his era; personally, I'd put him in the top three, his only other rival being Kyp Durron. I think he's better than Kyle, and beneath Luke.
I pretty much agree with Gideon's views, pretty solid man.
To answer the first question about saber style, I believe he was adept in several forms. He was already at the master lightsaber duelist level by the end of the New Jedi Order series (doesn't mean you can't surpass a master level and continue to improve). He could counter Luke, Kyle, Mara Jade, and anybody else who went against him, so he had a solid defense style, but he could also push on the offensive. I would think the only couple of styles he didn't have would be the style that Sidious, Yoda, and Luke Skywalker all exhibited:
Form IV: Ataru, the crazy, agile, acrobatic style where you come at the opponent from all angles.
Form VII: Mace Windu's form: Vaapad: Caedus didn't have this one either, if I recall. (Note, neither Yoda or Palpatine have exhibited Vaapad. I am not sure if Luke ever has, though I wouldn't be surprised if he could easily learn it, as he did Shatterpoint, another skill Mace Windu had).
Last edited by SWFan4Life on Jun 3rd, 2010 at 07:03 PM
That was an amazing post, you answered near everything I was seeking.
So basically, caedus was second only to luke in some areas, and unsurpassed in other areas by none? So if overall mythos wise if an extremely pissed off luke is ranked #1, then caedus is #2?
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Last edited by Board Walker on Jun 3rd, 2010 at 07:06 PM
He seemed to be pretty competent at that, although he's no Thrawn.
Again, he's pretty competent.
Pretty fast actually. He's shown to be able to maneuver very well. He was able to avoid sniper attacks from Jaina by using a mando as a human shield, and he also kept up with LOTF Luke, moving faster than the eye could see.
He was said to be more powerful in the Force than Darth Vader. I'm not sure if he's in the top 5 of all time; definitely for his era.
He knew battle meditation, had both short term and some long term precog/seeing future and his illusions sometimes even fooled Luke.
TK/passive use/etc.
Lightning
He could deflect blaster bolts with his hands
battle meditation
illusions
a bunch of Force skills he learned from different Force societies
He stood up to LOTF Luke in a saber fight, so he's pretty skilled. He also knew some martial arts styles.
Caedus was VERY capable of taking pain, so much that the loss of an arm didn't seem to phase him and that he fed off of his own pain.
Well he got fooled by an illusion from LOTF Luke, but LOTF Luke is pretty powerful. Again, Caedus has a very high tolerance to pain.
I'd say below Yoda and probably Mace but above Dooku. Somewhere around that.
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Between the war against the Yuuzhan Vong and the Dark Nest Crisis, Jacen explored the galaxy and studied under several non-Jedi/Sith Force-using cults and learned a lot of esoteric techniques. In terms of abstract knowledge, he's at least Skywalker's equal and very likely his superior.
In terms of Force strength, he's no match for an unrestrained or determined Skywalker, but was able to keep up with him in single combat.
Not at all.
There are certain duelists and Force users who have demonstrated more strength and skill than Caedus and who are on par with Luke.
I agree, he was definitely better than Kyle. We really don't know much about the power of the rest of the Order anymore though, since it seems that after the NJO series ended, authors completely forgot that non-Skywalker's/Solo's could do anything of significance. Seriously, besides Raynar leading the Killicks, no one has done anything big. Troy Denning seriously needs to wake up to that.
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So over all (factoring in all strengths and expertise) in top 10 mythos, where does caedus fall, and where does luke fall?
Also for top 10 of all mythos for purely 1v1 combat where do caedus and luke fall?
And, if caedus would have been refreshed and at full strength, pittied against luke, both of whome are out to kill the other, in a gladiator type arena, who'd yo you believe would win? Could caedus win? Would he lose but leave luke so injured he would die of wounds? Your opinions and perceptions fascinate me!
Luke would likely beat Caedus; from what I remember Luke was more injured than Caedus in that fight in LOTF: Inferno but Luke still won. Plus Caedus himself admitted that Luke was more powerful than him.
In the top 10 of the SW mythos, Caedus is likely 4, 5 or 6. This is not factoring in stuff such as orbalisks/amulets/etc.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
It depends solely on your perspective. Luke, in particular, is one of the most inconsistent characters in the mythos. On one hand, you have him using the Force to manipulate dovin basals and tethering himself to the ground in such a way that "not even the galaxy's central black hole could move him" and on the other, you have a relative nobody like Lumiya kicking his ass and no-name Sith Lords resisting his telekinesis.
You have certain parties who prefer to ignore the lower ending feats, concentrate solely on his higher showings, and if you do that, he's very likely the number one Force user in galactic history.
My perspective is to take into account all of the feats and assume that some of his higher end showings (like the whole black hole thing) is probably exaggeration and hyperbole and, in a straight up engagement, Luke rarely (if ever) shows that kind of power. For me, Luke would still definitely be top five
For me, Luke's top five in combat. Caedus isn't.
Skywalker consistently demonstrates considerable superiority in terms of Force strength, but Caedus was able to contend and harm Luke in their duel in Inferno, despite his uncle's certain advantages.
Luke would definitely win, in my opinion, but he'd probably be injured in the process.
Lumiya in many of their fights was using human shields and such. In the final fight between Luke and Lumiya Luke pwned her.
Yes, Luke is likely the most powerful in the SW mythos.
Luke is the most powerful in the SW mythos. The only other big contender is DE Sidious, but Luke totally outclasses him in lightsaber dueling.
Without orbalisks/amulets/etc., Caedus probably is in the top 5.
1. Luke
2. Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Caedus
5. Mace
Luke was more injured than Caedus at the beginning of their duel and still won.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Making a top five or top ten list is really difficult. Do we put Sekot or Abeloth on the list? What about Nyax when he was amped up by Force well on Coruscant? Or Raynar when he controlled the Killicks? And then we just don't know enough about guys like Tulak Hord and Ragnos to know where to place them on the list.
Given all that....
1. Luke
2. DE Sidious
Caedus is somewhere below top two. More, we don't really know. In a 1v1 fight I doubt he's top 5. Overall Force ability though, he's way up there, maybe surpassing Luke.
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I don't know about Sekot; aside from being a planet, what were his major displays of Force power? If that's all he has, is sheer size (lol), then that's not going to save him from a Force Storm, which can tear the surfaces off worlds.
Abeloth, to me, is similar to Anakin Skywalker: powerful in the Force, but demonstrates little skill with it.
Sure, just with that caveat.
I believe you can examine what we know about them to give them a rough estimate. That Ragnos was the supreme overlord of the ancient Sith is certainly enough to say that he's one of the very most powerful Force users ever, just not nearly enough for Janus and co. to say he could LAWL PWN EVERYONE EVERYWHERE.
I sincerely hope you're not referring to him trying to bring the sith ship down while the sith in the ship flying away are trying to stop him? NOTHING pathetic about that.
Caedus/Bane/Yoda/Windu and MAYBE Exar Kun and MAYBE Kyp Durron fall into a sort of to close to call, dangerous enough to challenge and maybe even beat the top tier on any given day sort of second tier.
Jun 3rd, 2010 04:48 PM
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