Rank The Sith Orders (Revised, Ignore the Other One)
Think we've had something like this before, but I'm not bothered to find it. Anyways, base your ranking of the Sith Orders on the two factors below (consider both, but only make one list) - and present reasons if possible:
1) Achievements attained in their time
2) Lasting impact after their time
Consider the scale and duration of both their achievements and their legacy, relative to the amount of time they've spent in activity. Here are the Sith Orders that we're counting, and a few basic facts for each (feel free to consider things I've forgotten to list here):
1. The Original Sith Empire (c. 28,000 BBY - 6900 BBY)
Major Sith: Adas, Dathka Graush
Achievements: Repelling the Killik and Rakatan invasions of Korriban
Legacy: Survival of the Sith Empire until the reform in 6900 BBY
2. The Old Sith Empire (6900 BBY - 5000 BBY)
Major Sith: Ajunta Pall & co, Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow
Achievements: First contact between the Jedi and the Sith & subsequent interbreeding, explorations of Sith Sorcery/Alchemy, the Golden Age of the Sith, the Great Hyperspace War
Legacy (direct): The Lost Tribe of the Sith, Freedon Nadd and the Naddist Cult, Exar Kun's Sith Empire, Vitiate's Sith Empire
Legacy (indirect): Darth Revan's Sith Empire & the Sith Triumvirate
3. Exar Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith (3997 BBY - 3996 BBY)
Major Sith: Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma
Achievements: First public reappearance of a Sith Empire in a millennium, destruction of the Naddists and causing The Great Sith War (sacking of Ossus and killing of numerous Jedi)
Achievements: Destruction of Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness/conclusion of the New Sith Wars, return of the Sith after a millennium in hiding, the destruction of the Jedi Order, and the first truly successful defeat of the Galactic Republic
Legacy: All Sith Orders to follow except the Lost Tribe of the Sith
10. Lumiya's Sith (4 ABY - 41 ABY)
Major Sith: Lumiya, Darth Caedus, Vergere (possibly)
Achievements: Establishment of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances, conversion of Jacen Solo to the dark side and indirectly causing the exile of Luke Skywalker, indirect destruction of Centerpoint Station & the subsequent release of Abeloth
Legacy: ???
11. The Lost Tribe of the Sith (5000 BBY - 44 ABY)
Major Sith: Darish Vol, Sarasu Taalon, High Council
Achievements: ???
Legacy: ???
12. The One Sith (c. 30 ABY - 139 ABY)
Major Sith: Darth Krayt, Darth Wyyrlok, Darth Nihl, Darth Talon etc.
Achievements: Return of the Sith Empire after a century of absence in the greater galaxy, temporary establishment as the Galactic Empire
Legacy: ???
Last edited by SunRazer on Jul 27th, 2016 at 09:39 AM
Re: Rank The Sith Orders (Revised, Ignore the Other One)
It is important to highlight additional achievements such as superior organization than earlier Empires, Sacking of Courscant and downfall of the Jedi Order of the era.
A large number of Jedi perished during the Great Galactic War and survivors were on the run until they rediscovered Tython and reestablished the Jedi Order there.
As for legacy, remnants of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire most likely established the New Sith Empire.
They did not defeat the Galactic Republic, they transformed it into an Empire from within by virtue of politics. However, they were the first to rule the entire galaxy.
1. Yeah, that I mentioned the Sacking of Ossus for the Brotherhood of the Sith and didn't mention the Sacking of Coruscant is troubling. Though that's included in "bringing the Jedi Order to its knees". I did mention that I may have missed things and that you can consider them. It's too late to edit the OP, now.
And nah, the New Sith Empire was established by Ruin, a breakaway Jedi Master. It was conceptualized way before TOR. Vitiate's Empire has nothing to do with Ruin's Empire.
2. They didn't win through war, but they were the first to actually destroy the Republic and replace it with something else. That they integrated themselves into the Republic to set up the 19 BBY revolution is an achievement in of itself, so yeah, it's valid to claim that they defeated the Republic - I never claimed it was through war.
Somebody, please make a damn list and offer brief reasons if possible.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jul 27th, 2016 at 10:08 AM
The Brotherhood of Darkness has thousands of Sith and soldiers at their command, conquered large swathes of territory and killed hundreds of Jedi. In comparison to that what Kun achieved resembles a temper tantrum.
Kun had thousands of Massassi at his command. The Jedi at the time of the BoD were especially weak, IIRC - they had street rats with sabers on their side. Just as the BoD called in their trainees and proclaimed them Dark Lords - an unprecedented low. PoD seemed to suggest (at least from Bane's PoV) that the Empires of Sadow, Kun and Revan were each (vastly?) superior to the BoD.
Conquered territory is a fair argument, though I'm not too sure what Kun conquered. That said, he did sack Ossus, whereas the BoD didn't accomplish anything remotely on that scale. They killed Jedi, but never destroyed anything like a significant Jedi Temple or Library.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jul 27th, 2016 at 10:34 AM
Its true there was a lot of fodder, but then there were 20,000 of them, and they had armies, fleets of seemingly capable soldiers at their disposal as well, on top of intelligence. Their armies and infrastructure just seem a lot more substantial, as opposed to the motley assortment of Mandos, Massassi and Krath Kun pulled together.
But yeah Kun just went around sacking a lot places, but I'm not seeing much evidence he held much in the way of territory, established meaningful government or built up much infrastructure. Certainly Kun appeared to cause more destruction, but leaving the galaxy in a mess is really is only lasting accomplishment. Comparably Kaan unified the Sith and established a substantial Empire that lasted almost a decade. Which strikes me as more impressive.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Jul 27th, 2016 at 10:52 AM
Well, KotORCG would suggest that the Jedi Order of the Old Sith Wars were greater than the Jedi Order of the tail-end of the New Sith Wars.
Kun did reach Coruscant, Ossus and various other centres of the Jedi and Republic. The Brotherhood got nowhere close. It's also worth noting that Kun attained vastly more knowledge than the combined archives of the BoD - which Bane found to be pitiful in comparison to Darth Revan's holocron alone.
And the SWTORE reveals that the Republic military possess "critical shortcomings", and only became properly organised after the Old Sith Wars. So given that though I would agree that Kun's Empire proved more of a threat to the Republic, arguably that was because the Republic was ill-equipped for conflict.
As for the knowledge Kun personally acquired, that's all well and good but he didn't make much himself in regards to contributions to Sith Lore, just accumulated it, and what he might have pioneered he failed to pass on.
1. Order of the Sith Lords - Only Sith Order that successfully saw the end of the Galactic Republic and instated itself as a galaxy-ruling power. It also destroyed the Jedi Order and ended up producing some of the most powerful Sith Lords, as well as amassing the largest reserves of Sith lore ever. What makes all of this even more impressive is that the Banite Sith weren't around for as long as most of the other Empires here, and they didn't have a chance to build off the accomplishments of other Empires. That said, their legacy isn't nearly as great as some of the older Empires.
2. One Sith - The only other Sith Order that managed to instate itself as the Galactic Empire - for a time. I'm actually mostly giving this Empire points because of how little time it had to build up (just over a century as opposed to a millennium or more) and their achievements relative to that short time they had to prepare.
3. The True Sith Empire - Though they only forced a stalemate with the Jedi/Republic despite 1300 years of planning, that is actually more damage to the Jedi Order/Republic than most other Orders have managed to inflict. The knowledge they amassed was also pretty good, but their legacy was absolutely shit for 1300 years of buildup.
4. Old Sith Empire - Mostly for their legacy, which includes most of the empires that we're comparing here and is by far the greatest of all Sith Empire's legacies. They did pioneer quite a substantial fraction of the Sith arts and there was the Golden Age of the Sith. But for all their two millennia of growth, they have few other achievements to show for it - and the fact that they were vastly weaker than the Republic even at their height is very disappointing.
5. Darth Revan's Empire - It did destroy the Dantooine Enclave, kill or convert many Jedi, and rediscover the teachings on Malachor V/the Star Forge. That said, they were feeding off the progress of the recent Exar Kun War and the Mandalorian Wars, and whilst they did have the Sith Triumvirate as their immediate legacy, their legacy otherwise was practically non-existent.
6. Sith Triumvirate - The new retcon in the Revan novel with them killing tens of thousands of Jedi makes this Order rank higher for me. They also were the first Sith Order that really came close to wiping out the Jedi Order/Republic. But then, the Triumvirate's accomplishments came as a result of all the previous wars weakening the Jedi Order/the Republic, and the Triumvirate had the square root of jack shit legacy.
7. New Sith Empire - Kind of unfair since we're lumping a bunch of short-lived, disorganized Sith Orders together, but they did produce a millennium-long war that apparently shat on all of the Old Sith Wars combined. The way most of the Dark Lords and their mini-Sith Orders were destroyed was depressingly pathetic, though. The knowledge amassed also seemed pretty poor with only a few exceptions.
8. Original Sith Empire - By far our most long-lived Empire, but apart from begin the origin of the Sith and their teachings, and defending their homeworld, they had no real accomplishments, and no galactic presence - very disappointing. This Empire also seemed really weak, given how they bowed down to 12 Jedi Exiles despite having thousands of Sith in its ranks.
9. Brotherhood of the Sith - The shortest-lived Empire, but in spite of that, they did sack Ossus and even get to Coruscant. They also attained a lot of dark side lore, and conveniently killed a lot of Jedi - including notable ones.
10. Lumiya's Sith - Mostly for being so short-lived and disorganized, with their damage to the Jedi Order being very insubstantial and temporary. Their indirect release of Abeloth adds to their achievements and legacy, but only by so much. Their actual legacy was virtually non-existent. Did amass some pretty good knowledge though.
11. Brotherhood of Darkness - The damage it did to the Jedi Order is substantially less than just about any of these other Orders, and that's considering that only a fraction of the Jedi Order was involved in the war and was literally giving street rats lightsabers to fight the Sith. They killed no notable Jedi (the Ruusan rituals I credit to Bane, not them). Likewise, the BoD called upon their academy trainess and proclaimed them all Dark Lords before they even earned their lightsabers - by far the lowest and most desperate point of any Sith Order. The amassed knowledge of the BoD was also absolutely pitiful, considering that Bane found Darth Revan's holocron alone to be a far greater source of learning. And it seems like the BoD was built off the reconstituted bits of the preceding Sith Order, so that only means more points deserve to be taken off. Not to mention that they lacked a legacy.
12. Lost Tribe of the Sith - Just the worst. They accomplished so little in spite of how long they had to build and grow - more than five millennia. They were an afterthought throughout all the major galactic Jedi-Sith wars up until 44 ABY - which was when the Order got destroyed, anyway.
1. Revan’s Sith
2. One Sith
3. Order of the Sith Lords
4. True Sith Empire
5. New Sith
6. Sith Brotherhood
7. Ancient Sith
8. Lumiya’s Sith
9. Sith Triumvirate (I typically don’t consider this a separate order from Revan’s though)
10. Brotherhood of Darkness
11. The Lost Tribe
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The Sith were divided into various warring factions before Kaan and some of the Jedi who left the order with him stepped in, killed the worst of the Sith warlords, forced the rest to beg for peace, and formed their own Sith Order. I'd say that's a point in the Brotherhood's favor if they acquired the remnants of that empire through conquest, not by having them handed to them on a silver platter as you're implying.
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Jul 27th, 2016 09:26 AM
