So, some members of this thread went to great lengths to 'state' that Nihilus and Sion didn't want to exile Kreia, but kill her. This is not true for a few reasons:
Now, ShootingNova/SunRazer kept using the line from the cut-content which is non-canon that both of them tried to kill Kreia with the famous line of Sion ot Nihilus: "Darth Traya lives; you did not kill her as you assumed."
First of all; it was never Darth Nihilus the one to deliver the fatal blow; it was Sion. Because we see that she is still alive at 01:17
This makes no sense that Sion was referring the Darth Traya beat, on Malachor V, if he said it was Nihilus' fault.
In this clip, we learn that this scene takes place after the Jedi Exile is confirmed to be 'dead'. So why would Sion mention that Traya lives only after so much long time? It makes no sense. If it really had anything to do with the past; it had to happen after we finish the Peragus campaign.
SunRazer came with the reason that these Sith Lords do not have any comunication arrays. I find this bull$hit on spot because holotransmitters were also mentioned in KotOR 2.
And how the heck did the Sith before Nihilus(e.g: Revan) communicate with their troopers when they are spread across the galaxy when they were fighting war campaigns?
How would Nihilus contact Visas when she would be far away from him?
SunRazer has proposed that he was mentally communicating with her.
But, there is no evidence for a mental contact either.
SunRazer never thought that Visas, shortly after betrayed Nihilus, wouldn't mind contacting him again?
If Sion knew Nihilus' Ravager's location; it definitely proves that he knew about Nihilus' current location.
1. "Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps(weakens) Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain(remove) her Force powers."
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Nihilus basically weakens Kreia's connection to the Force; and both of them perform Sever Force on her.
2. "Ousting Traya with Darth Sion's help, Nihilus binges on the Force, nearly extinguishing the Jedi forever at Katarr. However, Traya reciprocates his betrayal by luring him into a confrontation with the Jedi Exile and Nihilus's own former apprentice."
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
3. "Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn."
-Kreia
4. "I was cast down. Stripped of my power. Exiled."
-Kreia
Now, SunRazer said that Sion on Malachor V when he said she spared Kreia, he was referring to the Harbinger event(00:51)
I disagree. Kreia also makes the allusion by saying:
"You simply did not learn the lesson that I sorted to teach. That your strength is as meaningless as my hand."
The only time when we see Sion physically pummeling Kreia is when she beats her in cold blood during the event on Malachor V when she was exiled. Also Kreia makes the reference to lessons; after both of them exiled Kreia; they were no longer her apprentices. So Kreia cannot reference the Harbinger event because the context does not match up.
So, what Sion referenced when Traya was still alive was the current situation in which they were involved. That's why he also says on the Harbinger:
"After all that has happened, still you live. You are difficult to kill."
-Darth Sion
Sion says this because during the Jedi Exile's journey; they faced numerous Sith assassins.
"And now you run in the search of the Jedi.(...)-one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come."
-Darth Sion
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Sion's statement of: "After all that has happened, still you live. You're difficult to kill." bears no evidence to support the argument they tried to kill her.
EDIT TO THE POST REGARDING SION'S STATEMENTS ON THE HARBINGER:
We have to understand that Kreia was cut off from the Force by the duo. And as Kreia mentioned: what are the Force-users if they couldn't wield the Force anymore?
Sion's second sentence doesn't refer to Traya's 'surviving' Darths Sion and Nihilus but rather her ability to stay alive even if she lost her touch with the Force(at least for a short time)
That's why Sion doesn't say: "After all that has happened, still you live?" Sion makes a sentence with the lack of the "?".
So, he was definitely alluding to Kreia's ability to stay alive even when she lost her touch with the Force.
When they exiled her, they were sure she was going to die somewhere in the corner of the galaxy due to her inability to use the Force.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 15th, 2018 at 06:12 PM
What do you mean it doesn't make sense when Avellone wrote it along with almost everything else you cited in the OP? Nihilus drained her offscreen, a fact reaffirmed in KotORCG. Presumably that's what Kreia means by having her power stripped as well.
And more importantly, Sion probably acknowledges Nihilus' draining of her as the crucial factor in that encounter. His physical beating was completely unnecessary and he basically just did it out of his spite for her.
Appeals to incredulity aren't a valid method of dismissing evidence. I've already explained to you that Sion would've almost certainly told Nihilus this "after so much time" for the same reason that he spared her at Peragus: he thought she was weak, unimportant and no longer a threat. Even when he does tell Nihilus, he throws her survival in like a trivia tidbit; arguably the point of him even mentioning it was to spite Nihilus for his failure to kill her. In fact, that's the best explanation I can see for Nihilus telling Sion right afterwards that Sion needed him; to usurp Kreia's position of power. Throwing Sion's spite back at him.
Regardless, the point of him going to Nihilus was to report that they had finished destroying the Jedi Order and that their alliance was over. Kreia didn't matter in the first place, or else Sion wouldn't have spared her at Peragus. Again, that's why Sion brings her up as a sort of "Oh, by the way" thing. It was clearly wasn't his primary reason for visiting Nihilus.
Not sharing their holo frequencies and not having communication arrays aren't the same. I don't believe I said the latter. And honestly whether they could contact with holo or not doesn't affect my point. Regardless of your obsession with the idea, it's clear that Nihilus minimises contact with the outside world.
Other Sith communicating has nothing to do with Nihilus, who only reveals himself even to his own Shadow Hand when he wants to. He's obviously the more private sort.
No, I don't think Visas wanted to contact him. She wanted to get away from him.
Kreia is clearly referring to the strength of her lost hand, ie. non-existent. So she is certainly referring to Peragus, because that's where Sion took Kreia's hand. The context aligns perfectly; you decided to create context of your own which didn't fit so you could justify your delusional denial of the facts.
What current situation? That Sion and Nihilus attacked her expecting to kill her but that she survived? Yeah.
The only reason you can't see this is because you're consciously in denial of very clear evidence, lol.
No proof for that or any reason to believe it, and your quote's irrelevant. I don't know why you keep citing that when Sion doesn't say that line until well after he says the one about Kreia being difficult to kill. He says Kreia is difficult to kill almost from the onset of their meeting. The entire point of their opening exchange is to show that Sion and Kreia have a history and that he has made an attempt on her life before.
But she recovered from having her Force powers drained, which makes it clear that Sion and Nihilus' removal of her powers was incomplete. They didn't carry it out properly. That's probably why she survived.
Sion's sentence refers to them trying to kill Kreia. "After all that has happened" refers to their attempt on her life, and that's why Sion is surprised that she still lives. The idea that Sion and Nihilus just stripped Kreia of her powers and expected her to randomly die somehow might be plausible if it not for the other quote in the script where Sion clearly charges Nihilus with an attempt on Kreia's life, and unsuccessfully at that.
You decided to dismiss that quote because "it didn't make sense" so you could construct contexts of your own choosing around the more ambiguous Harbinger quote in a desperate bid to avoid the facts.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jan 16th, 2018 at 12:02 AM
Nowhere does it say that Nihilus Force drains her off-screen. Show me a quote or a source, then. This is your own 'head canon' likewise.
You have two or three sources stating the exile(Kreia herself too), and not the opposite. You're angry because you do not understand the context. If Sion was referencing Malachor V incident on Harbinger, he would add the "?" mark at the sentence: "After all that has happened still you live?"
But he doesn't do that. If he said the sentence with "?", then you'd have proof he was surprised they didn't kill her back then. But without the "?" mark he just makes a general statement about Darth Traya. And mind you, their purpose was to remove Traya from the Force, not to kill her. Even she admits she was exiled. Removing someone's powers doesn't kill them.
She states herself she was exiled by them. Isn't that proof for you!?
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
No, it's not my head canon. You quoted the source yourself. Keep up.
Nihilus clearly drains Kreia; a twist of irony after she's the one who teaches him how to harness that power. And since we don't see him draining her in the game, it's obviously off-screen or without the usual orange tendrils effect.
What an absurd line of thinking. But there is no question mark.
Why would they want to exile her? There's no rationale for it. Nihilus only wants to feed and Sion only wants to become the academy's ruler and be rid of her. And Sith are known for killing each other. In fact, the Sith Triumvirate's leadership was "elect[ed] by the lightsaber blade". It's all about killing.
She admits she was exiled, but that doesn't mean they intended to exile her or didn't intend to kill her. She was exiled as a consequence because they took over while she lost most of her powers and had no chance of standing up to them. That's not hard to reconcile.
Misread your post; you were saying there were none. But I still think it's hilarious that you think the question mark makes any difference.
Why would he need the question mark, anyway? He can clearly see Kreia alive and well in front of him. So of course he doesn't need the question mark; there's no question about the fact that Kreia's survived. It makes no difference.
Exactly. There is no question mark. If it were; he'd refer to the Malachor incident. That's why I said it has no question mark in the sentence. He isn't surprised; he makes a general statement.
Also, Kreia says to Meetra: "From an exile to another."
If both of them weren't exiled; she'd not say such thing.
Also, if you are willing to use that source against me; then Nihilus actually drained her before they went to confront her. But I am pretty sure you know this makes no sense. Why? Because Nihilus didn't even Force drain her there; he just wants to remove Kreia from the Force, then Sion joins in and they both remove her from the Force. The Force drain technique, mentioned in the source, Kreia helped Nihilus to develop has nothing to do with the word 'saps'.
Saps=destroy
That's why it says: "(...)saps her powers."/"(...)drain her Force powers."
It is a reference to Sever Force.
Drain doesn't refer here to them trying to drain her life, but her powers. And you can't drain Force powers/abilities. Here drain has the meaning of 'remove'.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 16th, 2018 at 01:37 AM
1. I just discussed that above. He's surprised that she survived but he's not shocked like an anime character; he's been looking at Kreia in the flesh for a good minute or so, lol. He's stating the obvious. Stop reaching.
2. The source doesn't say Nihilus drained her before the confrontation?
It's not Sever Force. Nihilus likes to feed. When he gets a victim, he feeds on it, he doesn't cut them off from the Force. He's got no reason to do that to Kreia. And he was draining her life as well; that's how he was trying to kill her. The quote I provided explicitly states that Nihilus turned his life-draining gifts on Traya herself. It's supposed to be ironic.
The power happens to just drain her connection to the Force as well as her life. And yes, you can drain people of the Force; that's what the quote means when it says her powers are drained. That's what Traya did to the Council Members in the LS version and the Exile in the DS version. Nihilus was just using it on her. You're so in denial that this is funny. Is it because we've found an instance where Nihilus' Drain is fallible? lol
If you're insistent on using a dictionary, at least read a little harder:
Case solved.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jan 16th, 2018 at 02:15 AM
And yet the drain happens before they confront her per the source. So, nothing is done off-screen. Argument invalid.
Also, another synonym for 'drain' is 'deprive'.
deprive/dɪˈprʌɪv/
verb
prevent (a person or place) from having or using something.
So, no, you can't drain someone's Force abilities, only their vital force or Force energy. You fail to realize that the drain and sap have nothing to do with the word 'absorption' in this context. If such event were to occur via 'Force' drain; one'd either be dead or become a Wound in the Force.
Kreia says she was 'stripped' of her power by them: She means she was removed from the Force via a dark version of Sever Force, but you keep taking both of these words as 'literal'.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 16th, 2018 at 08:54 AM
Where does it say they drain before they confront her?
There's nothing wrong with the immediately implicit definition such that you need to find others.
Instead of flexing your ability to hunt down dictionary definitions, how about masking your very evident agenda here?
Draining someone's Force energy certainly does drain someone of their Force abilities. That second use of "drain" in my preceding sentence could even accommodate your definitions and work.
Kreia also knows how to use Drain, which means she's experienced it in a way according to herself. She's not a Wound. Nor are the Assassins.
I believe you were the one toying with the idea of Kreia being a Wound anyway.
When has a dark side version of Sever Force even been used? You sever someone's connection to the Force with Drain; that's the closest that we get to severing someone from the Force as a dark sider in KotOR II. KotOR II is a game about Drain, and Nihilus is a character about Drain. It makes no sense that on this one occasion he defaults to another power, unless it is of course just to satisfy your preconceived denial of the idea that Nihilus tried using Drain on Kreia and didn't succeed in killing her.
Really, I've already constructed an entirely coherent connection between all the points of dispute without needing to search for all these alternate definitions, perform intellectual gymnastics, and reach for all sorts of crazy conclusions. You insist on not accepting my version of events; fair enough, construct an alternate one with the pivotal facts accounted for. Except you've only been reaching, and for all your reaching, we've all been watching an ever-widening gap between yourself and the facts. More than that, with each post you respond to fewer and fewer of my points. Am I to take it that you're slowly giving up ground?
Your fancy flipping around the definitions and grammar hasn't actually managed to reconcile any of the clearly expressed facts, which are that:
1. Sion has charged Nihilus with trying to kill Kreia.
2. Sion is surprised that Kreia is alive after a previous attempt on her life.
3. The KotORCG mentions Nihilus draining Kreia.
4. Neither Sion nor Nihilus have an invested interest in keeping Kreia alive, with Nihilus explicitly known for his voracious appetite of Force users and the Sith being known to usurp power through killing (with the Sith Triumvirate factually being no exception). On no other occasion have they, particularly Nihilus, used Sever Force.
This can all be reconciled if you drop the idea that Nihilus' Drain is an infallible instakill of a technique, a notion which isn't even directly supported and is in fact contradicted in the game itself (and by the one who taught Nihilus how to do this properly), yet instead of conceding that you run on all sorts of tangents about question marks, alternate definitions of drain, communication arrays and the war campaigns of other Sith Lords. You frequently accuse me of lawyering, yet here is the textbook ballet dancing around points, backed by ambiguity exploitation and definition hunting that would make any intellectually dishonest lawyer proud.
Regardless, I've answered all of your queries seriously, addressed all of your tangents. Now I'm going to wait for you to prosecute a case built around those four facts, instead of trying to dismiss and distort what you don't like to preserve Nihilus' drain record, the perfection of which is entirely conceived by fans rather than being directly stated in the mythos anyway.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jan 16th, 2018 at 10:02 AM
So when Meetra severed her connection to the Force; she did it with Force drain? : /
And it wasn't Sion's nor Nihilus' plan alone to 'kill' her. They planned it together. Thus, the cut-content line makes no sense. And if Force drained occured, it(per that source) happened before Sion pumelled her and Nihilus Force-pushed her. Thus, the argument remains invalid(as Force drain tried on her off-scene)
If Traya was drained and survived; she became a wound: But she isn't a wound, AFAIK. Also dark version of Sever Force exists. Tenebrae used it on his father to strip him off his power.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 16th, 2018 at 12:13 PM
I wasn't saying that you can only sever someone's connection to the Force via Drain, in case you think that. Merely that using Drain still does the job (ie. your dispute is resolved).
They conspired together, but that doesn't place a restriction on Sion attributing the "killing" or the bulk of the killing to Nihilus. You are trying to create complications where there are none.
The draining was probably continuous from Nihilus ever since his Push, as he just stands there. Kreia doesn't appear to have lost her powers before that; they illustrate that after she gets pushed when she has difficulty with moving her lightsaber hilt.
That's up for interpretation. It's just Tenebrae "stripping him of the Force" again.
Anyway, the more relevant discussion is around Traya being a Wound: who said she has to be just because she survived Drain? Nihilus uses the same Drain as the Assassins, just on a higher level. Do the Assassins turn everyone they fight into Wounds? Hell, Visas survived Katarr and there's no evidence she was a Wound either. Not sure where you're getting the idea from. Experiencing it only gives you the ability to use it.
Just why is it so hard to accept that Nihilus can use Drain and not definitely kill someone? Especially someone he conspired with Sion to overthrow, suggesting it's not some some bacterium but rather somebody of comparable or even greater power; somebody who can pose a threat, perhaps? Remember that this is Nihilus before he drains Katarr or the other planets. It's obvious that Nihilus and Sion together, perhaps even Nihilus alone (I believe Avellone thinks this) outclassed Kreia. The point is they didn't kill her due to oversight/haste. Not that they could have kept attacking and still failed to kill her, lol. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult thing for you to accept.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jan 16th, 2018 at 12:22 PM
Visas didn't survive Nihilus' attack. She was spared by the Dark Lord. Otherwise why would he bring her on his Ravager if he never meant her survival?
And you know that 'strip' means emptied.
That source is dumb, tbh. You say they 'Force-drained her; but we never see them draining her in the cut-scene either. That's why sap and drain doesn't refer to absorption in that source: You can't sap/steal Force abilities from anyone; it's like saying that Nihilus eats Sidious' Telekinesis or mind-trick power. Drain and sap had the meaning of 'remove' here. That's why Kreia said she was stripped off her power. She didn't say she was consumed/drained of her power.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Exactly. This guy keeps using that line on Harbinger to prove me I am wrong. Even if it makes no sense what Sion says on the Ravager. Sion said she was difficult to kill because it was a general statement about her.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Actually we don't see any Drain. Nihilus just severed her connections with Sion.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Why wouldn't they animate it, though?
Also, drain and sap in the context have the meaning of 'remove', not of consumption.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Jan 15th, 2018 05:34 PM
