Azronger responded with a multi-page essay as usual but completely missed the point of Palpatine's struggle for survival during the course of Dark Empire as he ran out of clones to latch to and chose to hollow out Leia's newborn as his host per direction from Sith Spirits. I have provided direct evidence of the fact that Palpatine's spirit could not resist the pull of the void for indefinite period and could no do much in this form without external aid.
His counter-arguments for Valkorion's ability to cheat death are just as clumsy. He attributes Valkorion's innate ability to nexus environments and such.
I need able-bodied and sane-minded individuals to comment in my blog.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jun 5th, 2018 at 05:27 AM
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
A Sith spirit is not supposed to exist and wander around because the pull of the VOID is continuous and overwhelming, unless it anchor itself to an object or an individual. Palpatine's essence wasn't an exception to this ground reality.
Palpatine's essence almost perished during the course of its journey to Byss:
He had never foreseen having to transport his spirit so far across space. He had nearly dispersed forever, but he had survived, and now need never fear death again. - The Dark Empire Sourcebook
- and, more importantly, a notable servant of Palpatine, the Force-sensitive Hand Jeng Droga, made the journey of Palpatine's essence to Byss possible because they shared an acute psychic connection with each other and Palpatine's essence was anchored to him:
Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Jeng to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body. Once again, Droga had saved his master. - Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns
In the absence of such external factors, Palpatine's essence would have perished. Not surprisingly, Palpatine was gravely concerned about loosing his last clone body:
"NO! NOT THAT ... YOUR SPIRITS GUIDED ME BACK TO THIS LIFE WHEN I WAS DESTROYED BY VADER ... AND BY HIS CHILDREN ... MY AGING CLONE BODY WILL SOON DIE. I NEED HEALING ... NOW." - Palpatine to unidentified Sith Spirit on Korriban (Dark Empire III: Empire's End)
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jun 7th, 2018 at 02:58 PM
If I may throw in my opinion, Valkorion's power was not what gave him the ability to not be anchored to the netherworld of the force as a spirit. And all we see him do as a sith spirit shows he wasn't anchored, not that he was more powerful in the same situation of being anchored and hindered as palpatine was.
What gave him this unique power was his immortality . Now, we've seen several different ways people became immportal in the star wars universe.
Palpatine used essense transfer, krayt had dark transfer, plagueis had midi-chlorians manipulation, mother talzin bound herself to her physical body, nihilus to his clothes, other spirits to their graves, andeddu allowed his body to keep going for an indefenite amount of time, the list goes on.
Now, the way that Palpatine, Talzin, Nihilus, and the other sith spirits preserved their life, we see that their spirits had to be tied to the netherworld. But the way Andeddu, Krayt, Plagueis, and Valkorion preserved their life, their spirit was NOT anchored to the netherworld. This is simply because of the technique they used, not because they were more powerful.
Sith Spirits are not anchored to the netherworld but to objects/artifacts imbued with dark side energy which enable them to counter pull of the Void and escape subsequent demise.
Netherworld represents heaven of the dead in the Star Wars mythology, therefore, Void is correct frame of reference in its place while discussing Sith spirits.
Sith spirits are not supposed to exist because they refuse to become one with the Force and resist pull of the Void through their anchorage to relevant objects/artifacts; in this manner, they are able to lurk in the physical realm and affect living beings who happen to cross their path or zone of influence.
Valkorion is unique for being able to manifest his powers outside a physical body and/or counter pull of the Void for indefinite period. One can give credit to his 'immortality' for attaining this kind of ability but this is a facet of his power.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jun 9th, 2018 at 07:12 PM
I meant that they were pulled naturally to the void. Not all ways of preserving life have sith spirits being pulled into the void. The way Valkorion, Andeddu, and Plagueis prolonged their lives, they didn't have to worry about the void. This doesn't make them more powerful than Sidious.
My argument is that he wasn't fighting the pull of the void. It's not necessary that he was using essense transfer. Maybe he figured out a way to stay a spirit without having the void pull him. If so, he wouldn't be the first nor the last.
Each dark side spirit has a focal point of power that anchors it in the physical world. For example, the interred Sith Lords of Korriban use their burial sarcophagi to hold their spirits for millennia after death. Freedon Nadd clung to his tomb for countless centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to turn his successor to the dark side. Exar Kun - who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity - resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.
Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook
Darth Andeddu's holocron preserved his spirit. This is how it escaped pull of the Void.
"You transferred your intellect to what we assumed was a holocron. It was more. It was a shell -- just as that moldering corpse is a shell." - Darth Wyyrlok III
Member Azronger's response is filled with glaring misconceptions actually:-
1. Sith Spirits are not anchored to any world (strong in the Dark Side) such as Dromund Kaas, Yavin IV, Ziost and Korriban among others. They are anchored to objects/artifacts/tombs (focal points of dark side energy) but their spheres of influence are restricted accordingly.
Valkorion was not anchored to any object/artifact/tomb and his essence was able to teleport from one world to another (Dromund Kaas to Yavin IV; Yavin IV to Ziost; Ziost to Zakuul) and roam an entire world freely (Ziost).
There wasn't any need to highlight conditions of several worlds such as Dromund Kaas, Yavin IV, Ziost, Korriban, Zakuul and Odessen - a chunk of the response is useless.
2. In regard to discussion about the Outlander, member Azronger is playing with semantics and ignoring the bigger picture.
"A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form."
Taken from codex entry titled "Fall of Valkorion."
A single statement is never all-encompassing and binding; we have to concentrate on the bigger picture and piece together bits of information to achieve a higher understanding of theme.
Valkorion transcended death multiple times throughout the course of his existence and he didn't had to latch onto a living being nearby to cheat death in each case. Member Azronger is mistaking a 'plot device' for all-encompassing reality which is erroneous. He doesn't even know that Valkorion abandoned the Outlander for a while during the events of KoTFE and KoTET and he doesn't understand that Valkorion was 'manipulating' the Outlander into doing his bidding throughout - he doesn't play the game (it seems).
3. Loss of strength is expected in each episode of cheating death but Valkorion could rebuild his strength, even as a spirit, which is apparent from his exploits in Yavin IV and Ziost respectively. The blog assert that Valkorion's essence can manifest his powers outside a physical body which is absolutely correct.
4. Tionne Solusar is wrong in highlighting limitations of Sith Spirits in general? I don't get member Azronger's beef with the revelation. Yes! Even a scholar is fallible but this doesn't imply that we dismiss his/her observations without a valid reason.
5. Member Azronger is misinterpreting quotes about Palpatine as indicative of his power as a spirit which is not the case. My blog contains numerous quotes which highlight Palpatine's actions as a spirit and they are limited to Essence Transfer mostly. He also overlooked the part of Jeng Droga in making the journey of Palpatine's spirit to Byss possible after the Battle of Endor.
6. The Skywalkers disrupted Palpatine's hold over his Force Storm above Da Soocha V; the Force Storm became erratic and destroyed Palpatine's fleet consequently. However, Palpatine's spirit transmigrated to another cloned physical body on Byss.
"Finally, the Emperor was consumed by his hyperspace wormhole.
But a single clone had survived Luke Skywalker's attack. Emperor Palpatine revealed himself as two of his subordinates were displaying an alarming lack of loyalty and attempting to complete the destruction that Skywalker had not finished."
Taken from Dark Empire: Hand Book no. 3
In summary:
Palpatine's essence could not manifest his powers outside a physical body, and he needed a supply of clones to ensure his existence after loosing his original physical body in the Battle of Endor because his essence could not resist pull of the void for indefinite period. When supply of clones diminished, Palpatine visited Korriban to solicit help of Sith Spirits for preserving his last cloned physical body but they informed him to take Leia's infant body instead.
There is literally no comparison between the abilities of Valkorion and Palpatine, outside a physical body, respectively.
Jun 5th, 2018 05:20 AM
