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RE: Mace Windu and Sidious Battle
Started by: ozz81

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ozz81
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Australia


 

RE: Mace Windu and Sidious Battle

Thought will ask as I was a bit confused with this : when Mace fought Sids did Mace defeat him fairly or did Sids fake and feign it to lose on purpose to turn and lure Aniken to the dark side etc ?

Old Post Jul 8th, 2022 04:02 AM
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Tzeentch
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Registered: Dec 2009
Location: Morgan's Maxim


 

Sideous was toying with him. Despite being the 2nd most powerful Jedi in the order Mace was apparently a literal ****ing retard and completely useless in lightsaber combat according to canon.


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Old Post Jul 8th, 2022 11:25 AM
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Zenwolf
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Registered: Dec 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Sideous was toying with him. Despite being the 2nd most powerful Jedi in the order Mace was apparently a literal ****ing retard and completely useless in lightsaber combat according to canon.


Eh? Iíve seen the opposite stated, where you get this from?


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Old Post Jul 8th, 2022 01:55 PM
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JediMaster97
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Registered: May 2011
Location: Germany


 

People have been debating this every since ROTS was released.

Even in canon, there are now contradicting quotes and statements regarding this question. I doubt we'll ever get a clear answer.

Old Post Jul 9th, 2022 09:36 AM
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juyomaster34
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Registered: May 2011
Location: Haruun Kal


 

To underestimate Mace's mastery in light saber combat is foolish.
We got a clear answer, and that answer is yes Mace defeated Sidious in lightsaber combat.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2022 08:47 PM
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relentless1
Dark Overlord of KMC

Registered: Aug 2014
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its been confirmed recently that Sidious did in fact take a dive in that fight

Old Post Sep 11th, 2022 11:27 PM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by relentless1
its been confirmed recently that Sidious did in fact take a dive in that fight



I think it said Sidious was toying with Mace.

Old Post Sep 12th, 2022 07:21 AM
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StiltmanFTW
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Registered: Dec 2008
Location: In lawest9's ass.


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JediMaster97
People have been debating this every since ROTS was released.

Even in canon, there are now contradicting quotes and statements regarding this question. I doubt we'll ever get a clear answer.


This.


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Old Post Sep 13th, 2022 12:05 AM
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relentless1
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I always go back to Sidious vs the Zabrak brothers and his treatment of the other three Jedi that accompanied Mace. Due TOYED with them ALL... as if a child was trying to fight an adult lol thats way too strong to track with the idea that he lost to Windu it doesn't make sense, even Yoda lost ground to Sidious and he's stronger than Mace so its never sat well with me that somehow Mace could actually best this juggernaut

Old Post Sep 14th, 2022 09:31 PM
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McP
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Registered: Sep 2014
Location: Poland


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I think it said Sidious was toying with Mace.


Seems like he did in previous version of their fight. It look's cool, doesn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0hxI9Yh_GM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTIuhoItHxw

Old Post Nov 23rd, 2022 08:52 PM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by McP
Seems like he did in previous version of their fight. It look's cool, doesn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0hxI9Yh_GM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTIuhoItHxw



It does.

Doesnt look like toying though, but does make Palpatine out to be the better of the two.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by relentless1
even Yoda lost ground to Sidious and he's stronger than Mace so its never sat well with me that somehow Mace could actually best this juggernaut


Yeah but they were different fights. The no.2 guy can sometimes get the edge over the No.1 guy, so that bit I never had an issue with.

I just didnt like Mace being > Dooku and Anakin stick out tongue

Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 23rd, 2022 at 10:15 PM

Old Post Nov 23rd, 2022 10:11 PM
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NemeBro
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Registered: May 2006
Location: Saving KMC


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by relentless1
I always go back to Sidious vs the Zabrak brothers and his treatment of the other three Jedi that accompanied Mace. Due TOYED with them ALL... as if a child was trying to fight an adult lol thats way too strong to track with the idea that he lost to Windu it doesn't make sense, even Yoda lost ground to Sidious and he's stronger than Mace so its never sat well with me that somehow Mace could actually best this juggernaut


Because all of the retard canon that states or implies unequivocally that Yoda was better than Mace at everything is retard non-Lucas canon written by retards for retards.

"As wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu"
- Anakin Skywalker

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Lucas, for all his flaws, isn't a dumb fanboy like the people who fleshed out the world he created and as such didn't place OT characters like Yoda and Palpatine on an arbitrary pedestal at the detriment of the setting. Sidious being an unassailable Villain Sue who is casually better than the best swordsman of the Jedi Order (only not really because Yoda is better than Mace at that in a post-Lucas world huehuehuehue) at lightsaber combat is retarded schlock writing. Much better would be if the two times he actually was forced to enter martial combat with a similarly powerful foe were the closest he ever came to having his plans legitimately fall apart before RotJ, only for him to save himself against Mace with on the fly manipulation of Anakin.

But no, some people would much prefer the arbitrary and retarded power wanking by midwit EU writers to be validated over having a more compelling story.

Star Wars is garbage as are its fans. thumb up


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Old Post Nov 24th, 2022 04:18 AM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by relentless1
I always go back to Sidious vs the Zabrak brothers and his treatment of the other three Jedi that accompanied Mace. Due TOYED with them ALL... as if a child was trying to fight an adult lol thats way too strong to track with the idea that he lost to Windu it doesn't make sense, even Yoda lost ground to Sidious and he's stronger than Mace so its never sat well with me that somehow Mace could actually best this juggernaut
That doesn't make sense to me. Power scaling in the PT has always been through magnitudes. Dooku toyed with Obi-Wan and Anakin, toyed with Assaj and Savage, still died to Anakin 1 on 1 eventually. It's not uncommon for one person to be stronger than multiple people combined.

If Mace was the greatest swordsman in the order, as was debatably the case in old canon, it would make sense that he be stronger than Maul+Assaj and the palpatine fight goon squad.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Nov 24th, 2022 05:02 AM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
"As wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu"
- Anakin Skywalker

You're failing to take the OOU context into account. It was not taken for granted at the time of Clones' release that Yoda could toss out his cane, whip out a lightsaber, and whirl around a room like a flying beyblade. That was a surprise they were still keeping in their pocket. The audience's ignorance seems to extend to Anakin as well; earlier in the film he was doubtful when Obi-Wan said he wouldn't be Yoda's match in a swordfight, even though it's demonstrated to be a plainly obvious truth later on. Sam also talked about Mace being "supposedly the second baddest person in the universe" on the topic of his swordfighting scenes in Clones' BTS. But I'm sure there's some "post-Lucas" influences at work there, yeah? And the crew was being consulted by midwit EU writers for Revenge's promotional materials and BTS too, surely.


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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Nov 24th, 2022 at 05:19 AM

Old Post Nov 24th, 2022 05:14 AM
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NewGuy01
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The idea that Mace was ever supposed to be the supreme swordfighter is the real EU invention here. He's actually the only one among the "nines" who wasn't at some point alleged to be the best by someone on the film crew.


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Old Post Nov 24th, 2022 05:36 AM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: Morgan's Maxim


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The idea that Mace was ever supposed to be the supreme swordfighter is the real EU invention here.
There was never any non-EU sources that decisively weighed in either way. Lucas gave us statements like "Mace overpowered Sideous" and "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". You could make an argument that by virtue of Mace beating Palpatine when Yoda couldn't, that would imply that his combat skills are superior. That's a shaky argument, but it's more than anything we've seen from pre-Disney sources that indicates the opposite, that Yoda was the superior combatant.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Last edited by Tzeentch on Nov 24th, 2022 at 06:16 AM

Old Post Nov 24th, 2022 06:12 AM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro


"As wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu"
- Anakin Skywalker




That doesn't in any way imply Mace > Yoda.

The more relevant lines are from Obi-Wan:

"Not even Master Yoda has a midi-chlorian count that high" - TPM

"If you practiced your saber skills as much as you did your wit you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman" - AOTC

Also Palpatine:

"I see you're becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, even more powerful than Master Yoda". - AOTC


^ All those statements heavily implied Anakin had the potential to be greatest Jedi warrior i.e. better than Yoda.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 24th, 2022 at 04:11 PM

Old Post Nov 24th, 2022 04:09 PM
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NemeBro
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Registered: May 2006
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
You're failing to take the OOU context into account. It was not taken for granted at the time of Clones' release that Yoda could toss out his cane, whip out a lightsaber, and whirl around a room like a flying beyblade. That was a surprise they were still keeping in their pocket. The audience's ignorance seems to extend to Anakin as well; earlier in the film he was doubtful when Obi-Wan said he wouldn't be Yoda's match in a swordfight, even though it's demonstrated to be a plainly obvious truth later on.


Amazing how you assert that Yoda's prowess was an unknown in-universe and OOU while acknowledging that it is directly alluded to in the movie.

"If you practiced your saber skills as much as you did your wit you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman"

"I thought I already did?"

"Only in your mind my very young apprentice."

Anakin is an arrogant braggart. He was comparing himself to Yoda not because he was underestimating Yoda per say, but overestimating himself, or at least applying hyperbole to his own abilities much like he was Obi's when comparing them to Windu and Sidious.

quote:
Sam also talked about Mace being "supposedly the second baddest person in the universe" on the topic of his swordfighting scenes in Clones' BTS.


Sam as in Samuel L. Jackson? As in Samuel L. Jackson the actor who didn't create the characters or story?

Also you and Darth Thor seem to think I am saying Mace Windu is superior to Yoda in a general sense but at no point did I so much as imply that and I'll explain why in my response to him.

quote:
But I'm sure there's some "post-Lucas" influences at work there, yeah? And the crew was being consulted by midwit EU writers for Revenge's promotional materials and BTS too, surely.


The only time "post-Lucas" shows up in my post was in reference to after the final PT film was released. Are you having trouble following the plot?


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Old Post Nov 25th, 2022 12:40 AM
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NemeBro
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Registered: May 2006
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That doesn't in any way imply Mace > Yoda.


Good, because at no point did I imply that Mace was overall superior in my post.

quote:
The more relevant lines are from Obi-Wan:

"Not even Master Yoda has a midi-chlorian count that high" - TPM

"If you practiced your saber skills as much as you did your wit you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman" - AOTC

Also Palpatine:

"I see you're becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, even more powerful than Master Yoda". - AOTC

^ All those statements heavily implied Anakin had the potential to be greatest Jedi warrior i.e. better than Yoda.


And indeed, Yoda is the most powerful of all Jedi and his showings in the movie bear this out.

But the margin between Mace and Yoda and Sidious is not nearly as huge as the retards wrote later in the films and there is no reason to think it is. Mace beat Sidious and Yoda didn't. Why is that inconsistent? Do you live in retard world where a fight can only have a single conclusion? Did Joe Frazier not beat Muhammad Ali only to lose to him later and also lose to George Foreman who Ali dismantled? If this happened in a movie would you consider this inconsistent writing?

Mace can still be the most formidable lightsaber duelist while still being overall Yoda's inferior, given that Yoda is stronger in the Force. So what's your problem friend? Why do you prefer a boring story with a boring Villain Sue who is better than everyone else at everything?


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Old Post Nov 25th, 2022 12:54 AM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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^ You seem to be having an argument that I'm not in. I simply gave dialogue from the movies that clearly indicated Yoda > Windu, nothing more, nothing less.


Now relax nerd.

Old Post Nov 25th, 2022 12:37 PM
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