Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
How are all the characters developing?
I think we need a place where we can discuss how each character has developed since movie 1.
We need a big picture of it otherwise we probably wont be able to suss out what is going to happen in movie 3.
People seem to think that this whole middle movie was only a "test" for the characters to see what they want most in life and that Liz decided against being a pirate and she wants Will. Jack "wont want her now"..or he's going to go after her but it will end in vain. and that Will was thinking "oh I need to love my lizzie"...I completley disagree with this...People are ignoring what movie 1 showed us when it came to all the characters:
Jack wants love but wont embrace it
Liz wanted to be a pirate since she was a little girl
Will wanted to meet his father..and he also wanted to be bold towards Liz
but did anyone else get the vibe..even during movie 1 that Will never actually earned that?..What did he actually do for Liz in that move except be bold enough to call her Elizabeth and kiss her?
Did he actually earn to be her guy?? I honestly dont think so..he never actually did anything to save her..he was always too late.
With Jacks character..the way I see it..He's a materialistic jerk to start with..but there is a little hint in there of what he actually wants..(love with one person)..by movie 2..he's begining to want it..and he wants Elizabeth but is wary of going after her or not..Why would he actually want to go after her if he knew that she was happy where she was?..anyway by the end of movie 2..we can see that he is beginning to let material objects go and care for a woman..It's still not quite enough to win her heart yet..So how will he win it over at the end??
Also why is jack worried about claiming Liz?..is it because of the fact Will is there? He knows that Will is an honest man..and when something doesnt go their way..they usually end up doing something incredibly stupid.
Is this a hint of what we are going to see happen with Will in movie 3? What is he going to do?
anyway..continue lets chat
COme on katelovespirates, lovethemtigers, vegaofthelyre and everyone
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 1st, 2006 at 08:51 PM
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Well, the way I see, it, you're pretty much right. I think the script on paper called for Liz to be the main character since we start with her and it's her adventure. She's the one who is taken by pirates. Jack steals the show of course, but I think they shifted gears to focus on Will.
Will has always wanted to find his father, and the way I always thought of him, his place in the world. While he's not a pirate, one gets the feeling he's not satisfied with his work since he practices with the swords three hours a day and has a shit-for-brains boss. The second movie, he's beginning to form a life for himself, get married and all, but he has to turn pirate again and meet up with Jack. That's when he's really in his element is when he leads the crew to save Jack. He's starting to get quick on his feet and a little cleverer. So I think he's turning pirate too, only more against his will and at a slower pace than Liz because she's always wanted it. I don't think he'll be happy going back to being a blacksmith. It just seems like he doesn't feel challenged doing it.
Yeah I agree with you, Will has not earned anything!
And in my opinion there were a lot of hints given in the first movie to give a hint to Jack/Liz thing.
At the beginning, after he saved her life she said:
- "Do you really intend to kill my rescuer?"
-" Commodore I really must protest! Pirate or not this man saved my life"
- "Oh, yes it was terrifying" (to the maid, but she didn't mean it.
-"But you're Captain Jack Sparrow. Are you the pirate I've read about or not?"
-"This is wrong" (during the hanging scene)
Jack:
-Saved her life
-Saved her life again when Barbossa wanted to shoot her
-Peas in a Pod
- In Tortuga: "If every town is like this one, no man would ever feel unwanted" ( I mean it could mean that he wants to find love, or?)
Will:
- he did something incredible clever: he freed jack from jail
- he brought her out of the cave...wonderful
- and again he helped jack to escape, but what else?
But what I didn't understand why the Governor and Norrington give Jack a start to escape? I mean did they do it for Liz?
__________________
Last edited by Jacky Sparrow on Sep 1st, 2006 at 08:57 PM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
Will was actually late to rescue her in that scene..if Barbossa was gonna slit her throat he would have done it..and Will would have been late becuase he did the stupid thing by knocking Jack out.
Willofthewisp
With Will's character..if he becomes more piratey..will this mean that Liz will feel happy with him?
WHat I notice is that he is becoming very selfish..and I think that its going to grow and grow by movie 3..
From Liz's reaction after what she did to Jack on the pearl..it seems as if she doesn't actually like that selfish side of the pirate life..but JACK is actually starting to become a better man.now and he's becoming less selfish.but Will?
He's going in the wrong direction if he wants to keep Liz...
the annoying thing is..will he learn this before the trilogy ends and go back with Liz?
or will he actually do something REALLY BAD to her..and THEN do the right thing by letting her go?
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
I think being a pirate goes hand in hand with being selfish. To me, while Jack is an excellent pirate, he fits the description of an adventurer who just wants to be his own man rather than someone who finds pleasure in hurting other people. He and Liz are not pirates in that sense of the word. Sometimes they act that way, but they're not that way at heart.
Will....Will needs to find his place in the world, and for a lot of people, that involves a lot of heartbreak and mistake-making. He's going to make a huge mistake in the third one. Whether or not he wins Liz back or not, he's going to do something pretty dangerous and stupid and selfish. After that, if he doesn't turn evil, which I don't think he will, he will know where he fits into the rest of the world.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
Yes I agree..There is something about Will with this whole "too good to be true" vibe going on..this is what makes me suspicious about that whole touch of destiny..As I was watching that I thought.."aww Will is going to finally become the hero Liz always dreamed of"..
but now I'm thinkin IS HE?.I thought he already WAS a hero to Liz. Will's character is about to develop and its really overdue..and its going to be like a baloon popping..and its going to make us all jump out of our skins..what was it about his destiny that Tia was so in awe of?.I honestly dont think its a good thing.
and only seconds later in that scene he's like "what vexes all men?" and Tia knowingly says to him "what indeed?" is will going to become so vexed at Liz that he will do something really bad to her? maybe even Kill her..
I have a really strong feeling that he is going to do this to her..
because his love is going to turn into a selfish love..and if Liz shows that she has chosen Jack...he might actually kill her for it.
this is what contradicts the peoples theories on KTTC.com
because they are determined to believe that Liz doesn't love jack.and that Will just thinks she does.....but he is going to have to actually see something with her and Jack if he was really going to hurt her..so I'm guessing Liz does start to love Jack in the story.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 1st, 2006 at 09:20 PM
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Was it you who first introduced killing Liz? Maybe it was me, I don't know, but that would be the worst thing to happen to the series, worse than even Jack dying. Because if Jack dies in the third one (which I don't think he will), everyone will have better memories of him and we'll leave the theater talking about how heroic his death was and how he avenged everyone else, etc. Kill Liz? Jack is going to fall apart. Even if you argue that he's not falling in love with her, she's at least special to him, a close friend. I think her death would take the light out of his eyes, so to speak.
And if Will kills her? Well, I think the audience wouldn't forgive him. All Liz wants is to have more freedom than what a rich, high-class woman had at that period of time. She's still innocent and the heart of the movies, so no one could ever sympathize with Will after that.
If Will does not kill her and someone else does? Well, there goes the motivation for the two surviving characters. Will pretty much defines himself as Liz's lover right now, so I think that would drive him over the edge, and Jack....again, Jack would not be able to get over that. She's his pirate.
but has anyone noticed when they are in tias hut, and first tia strokes him through the face and later on...on his hands....but i mean, if he's sooo much in love with liz why didn't he pull his hand away?
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
I agree with you!! I just hope its not him they are gona make out to be the Odysseus character..cuz that would mean Will gives it up to go and save Liz..
I'm wondering if Tia is after Will instead of Jack?
Also I dont think that Liz is going to stay dead lol..
this is where the whole Odyssey aspect of the story comes into it..Jack/Odysseus is going to be offered immortality but I have a feeling he is going to refuse it for Liz..to bring her back
I have a feeling that the only way for a Jack/Liz ending is if they actually show us that Will is not worthy of her..and that Jack is...and Will could redeem himself by leaving Liz with Jack
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 1st, 2006 at 09:25 PM
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
If anyone dies....
1. Will dies.
This clears up the triangle nice and pretty leaving Jack and Liz free to be with each other. Will probably tangled with the dark side a little and it cost him his life to regain his honor, probably by saving Jack and/or Liz along with his dad. This would suck if he died because he's still a good person and it's not his fault Liz isn't really in love with him. I'll be a little sad to see him go.
2. Jack dies
If Jack dies, it will probably be to save Liz because I don't think he would take a bullet for Will. People will tell tales of his bravery and how good a pirate he was. It will be very sad, but I don't think it will happen. He's Captain Jack Sparrow! Savvy?
3. Liz dies
If Liz dies, most likely someone will kill her to piss off Jack/Will or use her as bait and their plot goes horribly wrong. Her purpose is to indirectly point Will towards his place in the world and to act as Jack's conscience. She represents all women in this series and although clumsy and usually outnumbered, she picks up a lot of skills and becomes more dangerous as the series progresses. Losing her would be a great shock to the rest of the characters because (and I don't mean this to be sexist at all) it is harder for a man to lose a woman than another man.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
I'm interested in how they will develop Barbosa now that he's back. He's such a cool villain. Under all that pirate-y attitude and "yars" is a very intelligent, very insightful man. He'll have a new appreciation for just sinking his teeth into that apple. But does he still hate Jack? What does he want? I think the whole point of movie2 was finding out everyone's deepest desire. Where would his compass point?
I think maybe at the beginnig he still hates jack because they'll have a fight scene...but later he gives up his life for jack, but why? maybe because he has noticed the relation between jack and lizzie? or name me a reason why he should give up his life for an enemy?
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
There is a whole theme in movie 3 of "jack never being able to love someone on a long term basis"
He had a thing going with Tia but left her
Will is apparenly arguing with Jack telling him that he is incapable of loving Liz.
He begins to talk to Davy J in the latest movie and they become quite close..So davy is going to start putting more and more Ideas into Will's head about Jack stealing his woman and then leaving her. So he is determined to stop it happening at all costs with Liz.
the audience even think that Jack is incapable too...
But I need to just say..
Just because a person breaks up with someone..does that mean they can never find a soul mate in the future?
and if Jack is "stealing her" then why was she doing everything on her own impulses when it came to Jack?
and if Jack is incapable of wanting and giving love..then WHY was he willing to give up the very ship he sold his own soul to gain...for a girl?
so no one is stealing anyone..they are falling for eachother naturally.
So this is where Will is going to become bad and disliked by the audience I think..if two people are clearly changing infront of your eyes..and they want one another...are you going to pretend to yourself that they aren't right for one another and selfishly try and break them appart so that you can have Liz back to yourself?
I think will is going to start doing this..at first he genuinly believes that Jack "cant love her" (or does he? we all know jack is a good man at heart)..So he tries to remove Jack as soon as he finds him..and he completley tosses Liz's feelings aside when doing this..all he wanted was to gain the pearl to look for his dad..and he wants to remove Jack from Liz (basically hand him over to his death on Sao Feng's ship) despite the fact he thinks she loves him..now THAT is selfish! He's hurting Liz and hurting Jack just so he can get his own way....Liz doesnt love Jack (still at lust stage)..but look at how over the top Will is acting here...god knows what else he would do if he sees that Jack was actually getting close to her..and what if he really does get closer to her later? as in love
I sense that Will is going to become more and more bitter towards the two as the story progresses..and if Jack actually does show that he can love her..and Liz actually shows that she's chosen Jack...then would he be so angry and so selfish in believeing that Jack cant actually love her (all the talks with Davy) that he will tear her away from Jack..and himself.."if I cant have her..YOU cant!"
SELFISH ACT...its HIS turn to do the bad thing..and its actually really overdue with him..
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:01 PM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
I think its also important to notice..In movie 1..he actually scared Liz and made her cry..because she lied to him about his dad...that was a little darkness in his character right there..I was like WHOAH!
YAY! another thread where we can type up ridiculously long explications of our favorite pirate movies!!
Okay anyway, my thoughts on Jack's character-- he is essentially a trickster, a shapeshifter even, if you want to look at it from an archetypal point of view. We've already kind of discussed about how his "drunken pirate" image is frequently belied by his flashes of clarity and even gravitas. This is why the audience is accepting of the dramatic, apparently contradictory aspects of his character: he's a hero, a coward, he's a lady's man, he's a one-woman man, he's a fool, he's brilliant and so forth. And of course, we love him for that, for keeping us off balance and beguiling us with just that hint of what he's always keeping hidden up his sleeve. Jack's personality allows him fluidity and flexibility but also lacks an integrating element, something that will allow him to pull all those elements together into a whole. He's fractured, in a sense, as LovelyOne has pointed out-- there is an incompleteness to him and hence his occasional fretfulness and "not knowing his own mind." LIZ is the completing puzzle piece as we've talked about-- she is the catalyst to bringing all those parts of him together and making sense of them. Otherwise, Jack will have undergone no real change -- he will remain his trickster, shapeshifter self that he was in the first film but essentially unable to achieve a more holistic identity.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
WOW!^^ totally agree vegaofthelyre. And critics were saying "I hope we see a little more depth in his character this time" I WAS too..and I saw it..People cant actually seem to see that he is CHANGING and becoming more likeable because of LIZZIE..they refuse to believe that at he moment though..
Do you actually think its true that the majority of the audience want a Will/Liz thing? So thats what disney are aiming for...?
If thats true then I honestly think that its only because we haven't seen Will do anything yet that makes us mad at him...but my spidey sense is tingling..he's really gonna hurt Liz I think.
another reason is becuase they want Jack to stay the way he is..but he is CHANGING..are they blind or what? So i dont think it would actually bother them if he ends up loving someone in the long run..he already is starting to and people still love his character..I love his character even more now that I have seen him change for the better...
I mean..he started to show that he wants love in his life...and if thats robbed away from him in the end..is that realy a happy ending for him?
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:32 PM
OKAY SORRY GUYS!! omg now that i've gotten started, I can't stop!!
THE MORE compelling reason I have for needing a drastic change on the part of Jack's personality is simply the narrative devices that have been used in the 2nd film.
At the end of the film, Jack is "killed" or swallowed up by the Kraken (although he goes down, very hotly, fighting) To me, this is SO CLEAR: it is a signal for some DRAMATIC, DRASTIC transformation of a major character. I apologize for making some arcane references but Wagner's opera tetralogy Ring ( heavily into norse and western mythos) shows this "Sleeping Beauty" element-- Brünnhilde is put to deep sleep inside flames by order of her father, Wotan. The hero Siegfried later awakes her and they (sort of) marry. But before he does, he must undress her from her armor and DISCOVER that she is a woman, her true identity!
This "transformative" sleep/death allows the hero/heroine to be significantly changed and also for their "true self" to be discovered by their lovers or family. This even shows up in STAR WARS again, which has many parallels to Pirates, where Han Solo the trickster rouge is carbonated, (deep, unconscious sleep) and is awakened by Leia. He is then completes his transformation by leaving his "smuggler" life to join Leia and to fully commit his life to the Cause they've all been fighting for... A HUGE CHANGE FROM THE MERCENARY "I only take orders from myself" Solo of the first SW movie.
LIKEWISE.. Jack has just been sent to his "sleep" I.E Death or purgatory or whatnot. This (should) symbolize a major psychological shift for his character-- when he is finally awakened/rescued, he must go through some kind of transformation. And what transformation is awaiting Jack? To finally accept his all-consuming love for Liz of course, and to modify his "free pirate life" to accomodate his new partner in crime!
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Sep 1st, 2006 08:40 PM
