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LIGHT SIDE DISCUSSION- Jedi Morality
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Ushgarak
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LIGHT SIDE DISCUSSION- Jedi Morality

This story has been an interesting one for showing the motivations of the Light Siders.

When faced with the dilemma of either letting Faylar accumulate his droid army or completely disobey their orders from the Council and get involved in a war in which they have no jurisdiction... no-one even seemed to consider not stopping Faylar.

This is not a criticism. Neither way was more valid than the other. Just interesting that no-one dissented!

The main problem for the Jedi in this story is that they are outside the Republic and hence have no power, though this does not seem to have troubled them any!

But for example, in trying to recover Argentis, it was entirely feasible for the Jedi to actually try and negotiate with Faylar! But I guess no-one could stomach it.

In the recent negotiations with Yerssot, I noticed a couple of problems. First, no-one would even begin to believe Faylar's offer of letting yerssot go if you guys left. I can tell you, that offer was genuine. Faylar had absolutely NO intention of opposing the Jedi. Why would he? What would it get him? The problem, of course, is that you didn't have Argentis, I'm just surprised that no-one believed him.

Of course, Faylar IS an evil bastard. But he is a SENSIBLE evil bastard. He has no intention of making an enemy of the Jedi Order by kidnapping or killing a Jedi Knight- unless he has to.

This is the centre of the dilemma of the Jedi. Faylar will not trouble them again if they leave him. But he WILL dominate Damagran, and rule it with an iron fist. It is illegal for you to intervene. But millions would thank you for it.

The question is, you you think you should do the RIGHT thing, even if you don't have THE right to do it? You have all deicded yes immedaitely, which makes you great heroes, of course, but it's unusual for a Jedi. Ithrorn, for example, is very unhappy with it all but won't defy the two Masters.

This is, by the way, the area in which Renegades get it easier than Jedi. They don't have the back-up resources of the Jedi Council, but they are free of some of these ethical dilemmas! For Xeth, this is all simple. Faylar is evil and he must be stopped!

What did alarm me a tad, though, Lance, was your suggestion to attack Faylar's men! They had actually come to negotiate with you about yerssot in good faith. And you seemed prepared to butcher them! The sort of thing I would expect from the Dark Side!

Of course, you weren't being like the Dark Side- I assume you thought they were coming to do something evil to you. But I thought it would point it out, all the same.

It IS hard being a Jedi. There ARE rules, important rules, that means you can't always do all you want. This is why Renegades walk away, but they end up with problems of their own.

I thought this was a point wortyh of discussion, anyway. I know Gundy loves the feel of actually trying to do EXACTLY what a true Jedi would do. What do the rest of you think when it comes to these sort of decisions? Because there may be more to com ein future.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 07:59 PM
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LanceWindu
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When I said 'attack' Faylar's men, I didn't mean it to be a butchering. That word could mean many things.

Like what we could have done was take their weapons (if they had any) and knock them out. Or we could have taken their weapons and used the Force to mess with their minds and keep them out of our business.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 08:05 PM
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Ushgarak
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Granted, but it still wouldn't have been very nice!


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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 08:06 PM
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LanceWindu
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From what I and my character thought, they were going to do us harm. We didn't believe Faylar.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 08:08 PM
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yerssot
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Re: LIGHT SIDE DISCUSSION- Jedi Morality

quote:
Originally posted by Ushgarak
completely disobey their orders from the Council

If those orders are given from the beginning of game II, I haven't got them

quote:
[i[Originally posted by Ushgarak[/i]
The main problem for the Jedi in this story is that they are outside the Republic and hence have no power, though this does not seem to have troubled them any!

"We are keepers of the peace"

quote:
[i[Originally posted by Ushgarak[/i]
But for example, in trying to recover Argentis

New to me

btw, I can say that I was with the Dark Jedi for a long time, easily to get brainwashed

Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 08:08 PM
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Gundark
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Choosing to portray a Master was an easy decision, yet acting as one by adhering to the directive of the council on a given mission is something else entirely.

The moral dilemmas faced at any given time can only be dealt with using the resources at hand, no matter how limited they may seem and of course, the individual's knowledge of the Force.

While this is seemingly obvious, utilizing those resources and that knowledge in a manner that is acceptable to the council is always something any Jedi has to keep foremost in mind. As Yoda said, the Force is for knowledge and defense, never for attack. And once you return to Coruscant and face the council, you have to be prepared to explain your actions.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 08:43 PM
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REXXXX
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Aren't the DJ going to try and kill Faylar anyway? big grin


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 08:51 PM
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yerssot
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read the title Rex, you're not allowed in here! stick out tongue

Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 08:58 PM
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Ushgarak
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He can pop in.

Yes, the DJs want to take care of Faylar and that gives the Jedi as particularly nasty choice!

yerssot, appreciated you didn't know as much but that 'Keepers of the Peace' line means nothing. You are Keepers of the Peace INSIDE the Republic!

You have no authority to back your actions on Damagran- only force (no pun intended). Bear in mind that may colour the perceptions Damagran has of the Jedi.

Meanwhile Lance... yes, I understand no-one trusts Faylar but it is easy to take that too far. Like I say, it would be pretty dumb of him to try anything against you.

Even evil people CAN be reasonable, see? Which doesn't make things any easier for you! No-one, of course, will complain if Faylar is stopped.

But are you just going to let the DJ's murder him like that?


It must be said if there is any area where I am differing somewhat from the feel of the movies it is by adding a slight moral complexity. But in most ways, my people are the same as Star Wars people- you have good guys and bad guys, and not really anyone in-between!


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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Last edited by Ushgarak on Jun 4th, 2002 at 11:03 PM

Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 10:58 PM
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Ushgarak
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The Masters, of course, are meant to present a moral lead. Kiel is a pacifist. You may have noticed he hasn't killed anyone. Even in the fight at the start all he did was push someone off a building, and then he took time to check he hadn't killed him! Kiel loathes violence. But as you all know, pacifism does not always work.

Gundy has her own views on leadership, of course, How would you like to see your little posse go, Gundy?


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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 11:08 PM
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Gundark
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'Go' as in sacrifice them for the good of the cause, the good of the Republic ?


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 11:18 PM
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Ushgarak
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Bwa! No, as in how would you like to see them turn out?


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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 4th, 2002 11:21 PM
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REXXXX
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quote:
Originally posted by Ushgarak
But are you just going to let the DJ's murder him like that?


Yes, yes they are. stick out tongue


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 12:04 AM
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Gundark
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Well I'd certainly like to be presenting Argentis to the Jedi council by tomorrow afternoon with the Knights in one piece of course.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 12:51 AM
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REXXXX
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That won't happen. We have to fight first, remember? Lightsabers against lightsabers, the Dark-side against the Light-side, Captain REX vs. LanceWindu... big grin


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 12:57 AM
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Gundark
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Your evilness becomes you Rex.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 12:39 PM
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yerssot
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quote:
Originally posted by Ushgarak
You are Keepers of the Peace INSIDE the Republic!

"For more then a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the sworn protectors of all that was good" (OB1, adapted quote since I don't know it exactly)
And then you have Palpatines remark:
"I will not let this Republic that has standed for thousand years, be split in two"

So, as you say in the EpII section: the Republic isn't that old. So the Jedi already protected people BEFORE the republic

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 01:40 PM
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REXXXX
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DUH!!! What, they just sat around on their lazy asses wondering how to make a lightsaber while the Sith were attacking the people that were going to make the Republic.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 01:51 PM
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Ushgarak
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Don't be so dense, yerss. No matter what the age of the Republic (which, incidentally, there must have been SOME version of more than 1000 years ago because Obi-Wan specifies as such) it changes nothing. You only have lawful authority INSIDE the Republic.


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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 05:05 PM
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yerssot
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well, last time I checked the contract it said we should help EVERYONE EVERYWHERE

Old Post Jun 5th, 2002 05:13 PM
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