What do you believe about morals? Are they only something society came up with or a they an intrensic set of laws outside of the human mind
relative baby
__________________ With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.These words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie -- as awisdom, and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.
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ok Since noone is answering i will post what i think
Ok then Moral relativism all the way. Societies do not all have the same ethical framework, and it is in my view pure arrogance for one culture to say that their morals are 'better' than those of another, or even worse, to attempt to force those morals on a less powerful neighbour.
Having said that, however, I think it is good that organisation such as Amnesty or even the UN work towards improving human rights issues in countries ruled by oppressive regimes. In judging the morality of other cultures I think we must be careful not to confuse the ethical framework of a given society, and the actions of the regimes that happen to govern that soicety at this moment in time.
Ok i am gonna get some lunch hopefully this thread will be full of ideas
__________________ With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.These words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie -- as awisdom, and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.
"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.-----Sir Winston Churchill
I’m not to keen on the idea of Moral and Cultural Relativism. To me it seems like an attempt of tossing away responsibility, when you say that one set of morals are as good as another. That one kind of culture is as good as the next.
Morals and ethics have changed over the centuries – sure. Once it was perfectly acceptable to have slaves, to sacrifices humans, to consider women the property of men.
The question arises, if it’s possible to have any kinds of absolutes. I believe it is. It’s the age-old “do to others what you want done to yourself.”
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Fire> Forcing a set of morals on other people will probably never really work. But… Take some countries, where they still view women as property, use the death-penalty, censor certain books, forbid certain political viewpoints, etc.
I’ll be damned if I wouldn’t try to change the point of view of these people. What matters is HOW I try to change them. Not that I do try.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
The thing is... It's not the people themselves who believe in that stuff. It's the government forcing the laws upon them.
I made a thread a while back about perspective. I think nearly everything depends on perspective. Something that is evil to one person might be good to another. I do also believe in the absolute, though I think there is quite a bit that depends on perspective. Take the American Indians as an example. When the US government started pushing the Indians away from the land they wanted to settle, that obviously didn't go down well with the Indians. They had been here for 10 thousand years, and they weren't too keen on just picking up and moving. First they were supposed to move west of the Appalachians. This they did. Then it was west of the Mississippi, then it was onto small reservations of the worst land in the west. They fought back, in many cases. This resulted in 30 years of Indian Wars. To the people who were beginning to occupy the land in the west, the Indians were brutal, bloodthirsty, savage people who wanted only to disrupt their way of life. To the Indians, the whites were criminals who wanted only to destroy their homelands. We look back on that period of time, and we realize how cruel of the government that was. But if you had asked one of the farmers, ranchers, or miners who had just come west what they thought about all this, they would have told you exactly the opposite. So there is an absolute side, but it only applies to the individual if you agree with it.
I hope that made sense.
Barf> I do believe "the people themselves" or some of them, believe in "that stuff." Others - of course - just pretend.
But if you were brought up in, say, South Africa during Apartheid and you were white - what are the chances you'd have supported apartheid???
If you don't know any better?
And persepcetive is all fine and dandy. But especially with a case such as the American Indians, what was done to them was clearly plainly WRONG. I think I understand what you mean though. We need a dialectic approach. HOW were thing in the 18th century in America? How did European settlers view the Indians?
That still doesn't mean there is no absolute RIGHT and WRONG. A subjective persepctive may be influenced by propaganda, lies and so on.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
there is a difference IMO between ethics and ethics, if everyone in that society agrees with the ethics and is happy with them there is no need to change them
but if in that system ppl aren't happy with their situation then intervention could be allowed
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Fire> Ah, I disagree. Is the majority always right??
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Gender: Male Location: Welfare Kingdom of California
I'm not going to address the comments about the Europeans and the Native Americans in the 18th Century. I have strong opinions on that matter (I won't bring them here). Let us just stick to the subject at hand.
Relativism is true? then how do we explain "experience"? "Experience" which is the foundation of knowledge can be absolute. Relativism is only theory that the truth is different for each individual. If that is so, then how do you explain a something like this: "Water boiling is hot"? Is not relativism that tells us the water is hot! Is "experience" that tells us that when water is boiling is hot.
Absolute can only be certain when knowledge has reach it's potential! Which is to find the truth on things. A circle is round! That is absolute! All circles have different sizes! That is also absolute. How do we know this? Once again "experience" tells us.
So for me the debate comes down to Relativism vs. Experience. The Absolute is the result of experience.
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Last edited by WanderingDroid on Mar 2nd, 2004 at 03:22 PM
Morals do not exist - but loves and loaths do. In essence, it is selfishness in the sense that everyone want what they want, even if their wills are altruistic it still remains the one thing they want, or what makes them happy - what we love we are for, and what we hate we are against.
It is sad that no one follows morals anymore.I try too.But at times it is hard.People should keep good morals instead of going around breaking them.JM
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KMC Community Forums
Moral Relativism VS. Absoulte
Feb 29th, 2004 01:08 PM
