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The Hole Problem
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Symmetric Chaos
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The Hole Problem

I don't know if this is technically a philosophy problem but it doesn't seems like it would fit elsewhere.

Imagine a strip of paper with a hole punched in it. There's no argument that hole is perfectly normal and cone shape.

Now imagine a Mobuis strip with a hole punched in it. What shape is that hole? Is it even a hole?

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Jul 14th, 2007 08:49 PM

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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Imagine a strip of paper with a hole punched in it. There's no argument that hole is perfectly normal and cone shape.

Now imagine a Mobuis strip with a hole punched in it. What shape is that hole? Is it even a hole?

I cut a strip of paper, punched a hole in it, then twisted it Mobiusly.

The hole was still circular (it was never cone shaped), and yes it was a hole (I could put my pencil tip through it).

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Jul 15th, 2007 01:27 AM

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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
The hole was still circular (it was never cone shaped)

My mistake that's supposed to be cylindrical not cone shaped embarrasment

But was it a cylinder once you made it into a Mobius strip? How could it travel in a straight line from one side to the same side?

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Jul 15th, 2007 01:49 AM

Victor Von Doom
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I didn't quite get what you meant in the first post.

Luckily your second post made it worse.

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Jul 15th, 2007 01:55 AM

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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I didn't quite get what you meant in the first post.

Luckily your second post made it worse.

Aww

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Jul 15th, 2007 01:58 AM

Mindship
Snap out of it.

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
My mistake that's supposed to be cylindrical not cone shaped

My hole was circular, 2D...unless you're counting the thickness of the paper as the 3rd dimension for the cylinder.

quote: (post)
But was it a cylinder once you made it into a Mobius strip? How could it travel in a straight line from one side to the same side?

No, it was still a hole...or maybe what one could call a Chaos Cylinder. wink

Are you asking this: a hole is a space in a boundary, so you can get from one side to the other. Since a Mobius strip has only one side, is this really a hole (because you arrived on the same side you left from; you didn't go from one side to another)?

I'll say, yes, and that it's called an M-Hole.

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Jul 15th, 2007 02:54 AM

Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
My hole was circular, 2D...unless you're counting the thickness of the paper as the 3rd dimension for the cylinder.

I am, as it serves my argument

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
Are you asking this: a hole is a space in a boundary, so you can get from one side to the other. Since a Mobius strip has only one side, is this really a hole (because you arrived on the same side you left from; you didn't go from one side to another)?

Actually my question is this: How can the hole be straight (as a cylinder) if it can send an object though it perpendicular to the surface of the paper and move it to a different point on the same side?

The whole "is it a hole" think was just to make it seem philosophical big grin

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
I'll say, yes, and that it's called an M-Hole.

Sounds like a cop out to me.

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Jul 15th, 2007 03:24 AM

Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually my question is this: How can the hole be straight (as a cylinder) if it can send an object though it perpendicular to the surface of the paper and move it to a different point on the same side?

That's sorta what I meant.
I would think that, just like the Mobius twist changes what it means for a strip of paper to have sides, it also changes what it means for a strip of paper to have a hole in it. But it's still a hole.

quote: (post)
Sounds like a cop out to me.

Actually, just a bad joke.

quote: (post)
The whole "is it a hole" think was just to make it seem philosophical

Sorry. I think my attempt at humor was still worse than your attempt to wax philosophically.

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Jul 15th, 2007 03:49 AM

The Black Ghost
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Who ever said a hole has to be round?

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Jul 15th, 2007 05:12 AM

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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Who ever said a hole has to be round?

It doesn't. The problem isn't really changed though.

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Jul 15th, 2007 07:41 PM

debbiejo
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out with the old theories and in with the new. We are no longer living in the steps of Newton and all that is related to that.

Jul 15th, 2007 10:09 PM

Mindship
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The Hole Problem

Isn't this a problem?

A Mobius strip is a 2D figure. How could you have a cylindrical hole?

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Last edited by Mindship on Jul 15th, 2007 at 11:09 PM

Jul 15th, 2007 11:05 PM

Symmetric Chaos
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Location: al-Jumhuuriyya al-Yamaniyya

Re: The Hole Problem

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
Isn't this a problem?

A Mobius strip is a 2D figure. How could you have a cylindrical hole?

A proper Mobius strip would be but the only one I can make has depth to the paper.

I suppose if we assume that the paper is 2D it changes slightly. But still . . .

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Jul 16th, 2007 02:05 AM

Quiero Mota
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Re: The Hole Problem

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't know if this is technically a philosophy problem but it doesn't seems like it would fit elsewhere.

Imagine a strip of paper with a hole punched in it. There's no argument that hole is perfectly normal and cone shape.

Now imagine a Mobuis strip with a hole punched in it. What shape is that hole? Is it even a hole?

I really don't get what you're asking.

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Jul 16th, 2007 07:13 AM

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Rogue Jedi
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sounds like he has a problem with his hole, ese.

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Jul 16th, 2007 07:21 AM

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Quiero Mota
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Jul 16th, 2007 07:40 AM

Grand-Moff-Gav
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A mobius strip only has one side, so how can you put a hole in it?

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Jul 16th, 2007 11:20 AM

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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
A mobius strip only has one side, so how can you put a hole in it?

Exactly.

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Jul 16th, 2007 04:13 PM

Mindship
Snap out of it.

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
A mobius strip only has one side, so how can you put a hole in it?

A 2D figure can have a hole in it. In simplest terms, a hole is just a gap, a discontinuity in a defined area. However, in 2D, the hole can't have depth, nor can it lead from one side to another, as these bring in the 3rd dimension.

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Jul 16th, 2007 05:59 PM