Re: are Heaven/Hell side effects of humans' inability to comprehend nothingness?
Originally posted by Kumar
i think my opinion is fairly obvious at this point. Thoughts?
I often ponder the same things myself. However, I CAN comprehend nothingness and was/is willing to accept it. However, I do not want to risk the chance that there really is a benevolent God out there...so, I chose to live my life as a good person...just in case. Faith? Why not? Couldn't hurt to be a good person could it?
its true, it doesn't hurt to live as a good person. However, i'm sceptical when you say you can comprehend nothingness. Can you really or do you just agknowledge it? Can you really comprehend not existing? Not ever being consious of anything ever again? No thoughts, no sensation, not emotion. Its a tough concept to get one's head around.
Originally posted by Kumar
its true, it doesn't hurt to live as a good person. However, i'm sceptical when you say you can comprehend nothingness. Can you really or do you just agknowledge it? Can you really comprehend not existing? Not ever being consious of anything ever again? No thoughts, no sensation, not emotion. Its a tough concept to get one's head around.
Easy as pie, brother. I thought about these things over a decade ago. (I thought about many many things.) Nothingness isn't that bad...you will never know what nothingness is like because you will never go there. Once you get there...you don't exist...therefore, one can never know this nothingness we speak of.
In my opinion, the concept of heaven and hell seems to flow from the idea that life is too sad and contradictory, and that mankind therefore needs an afterlife where the soul can be at rest and content in the warm glow of an all good existence. Places where, if denied in this life, justice is found.
The reasons behind them can be debated, but they're obviously human-made constructs (at least from my perspective). Most myths were originally designed to explain nature (lightning = Thor's hammer crashing, for example). Others were intended to help people cope with transitions and struggles in their lives...it's likely the early predecessors to heaven/hell were of this variety. Most current dogmas grew out of these origins.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
The reasons behind them can be debated, but they're obviously human-made constructs (at least from my perspective). Most myths were originally designed to explain nature (lightning = Thor's hammer crashing, for example). Others were intended to help people cope with transitions and struggles in their lives...it's likely the early predecessors to heaven/hell were of this variety. Most current dogmas grew out of these origins.
Even though I am fairly religious...I agree with the above statement. Despite this fact, I chose to believe in a God, just in case there really is some sort of transcendent reality after this life.
I can easily see the absurdities of religion and how they are really immature to hold.
Do you guys understand why I still partake in religion or is my point lost in my inarticulateness?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Even though I am fairly religious...I agree with the above statement. Despite this fact, I chose to believe in a God, just in case there really is some sort of transcendent reality after this life.I can easily see the absurdities of religion and how they are really immature to hold.
Do you guys understand why I still partake in religion or is my point lost in my inarticulateness?
Just in case? That begs the question if "hedging your bets" is true belief, or even a positive reason for faith. Believing something just in case it's true smacks of a subtle fear, and is rooted in selfishness, not altruism.
If I left atheism, for example, on the off chance I'm wrong, and that I don't want to go to hell, I'd hope that doing it just to save my ass would anger God, not make him happy.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Just in case? That begs the question if "hedging your bets" is true belief, or even a positive reason for faith. Believing something just in case it's true smacks of a subtle fear, and is rooted in selfishness, not altruism.If I left atheism, for example, on the off chance I'm wrong, and that I don't want to go to hell, I'd hope that doing it just to save my ass would anger God, not make him happy.
In my religion, even atheists don't go to hell, so I don't share the belief of fear that you expressed above. The reasoning behind my choosing faith instead of atheism is more of a selfless reason...not selfish. I want to be with my family in the after life. It would be selfish of me to not try my best to be a good person even if it had nothing to do with faith.
Think about it:
Would you like to err on the side of not believing that God is there?
or
Would you like to err on the side of believing that God is there?
Essentially, when I chose faith over atheism, I chose the latter because I would want to look back at my life, IF there is an afterlife, and see that I made the appropriate choice. If there really isn't an afterlife, it wouldn't matter because no one will be able to tell me I was wrong because I won't exit.
No one can prove that there is no afterlife...ever. Even though with my studies in physics, I could clearly see how our universe was created without needing a God, that still doesn't not prove he doesn't exist.
It doesn't harm me or those around me to live my life with only good faith-based intentions. I do not force my religion on others. I don't go out of my way or even try to find fault with negative religious belief systems, but I am not perfect and sometimes, my logic gets the better of my goals and I find fault with another's belief system. (See thread about the Phelps group getting sued.)
You chose atheism because you find it more logical to err on the side that a God doesn't exit. There is no problem with that. IF God does exist, and you erred on the side of believing he didn't, there is always forgiveness, right? (Which is why I almost chose atheism.)
a lot of the basis for my asking of this question in the first place is my fundamental problem with organized religion. In my opinion, it is the most corrupt system ever. I have no problem with a person having their personal beliefs but when a group of people take the helm of those beliefs and begin spouting things about "if you don't do this, then you're going to be tortured for eternity", it just seems like it is simply a medium for controlling large amounts of people.
Originally posted by Kumar
a lot of the basis for my asking of this question in the first place is my fundamental problem with organized religion. In my opinion, it is the most corrupt system ever. I have no problem with a person having their personal beliefs but when a group of people take the helm of those beliefs and begin spouting things about "if you don't do this, then you're going to be tortured for eternity",...
I do not participate in a religion like that. I agree that religion is very corrupt...I saw this televangelist say to "call now and donate your money to receive forgiveness for your sins." etc. I thought that that was the lamest thing I have ever seen. I will never pay a man/woman to "teach the word of God". I will never ask for forgiveness from another person for MY personal sins.
Originally posted by Kumar
it just seems like it is simply a medium for controlling large amounts of people.
aaaaaannnndddddd....preventing stealing, lying, adultery, and murder is a bad thing? POSITIVE religion is great for keeping order.
Religion is great when you are trying to keep a peaceful people...religion gets out of hand when people use it to do bad things.
Originally posted by dadudemon
aaaaaannnndddddd....preventing stealing, lying, adultery, and murder is a bad thing? POSITIVE religion is great for keeping order.Religion is great when you are trying to keep a peaceful people...religion gets out of hand when people use it to do bad things.
When i say for controlling people, i'm talking about old school catholic church style stuff where they tortured and killed people for "herecy" which was really just a person disagreeing with them...
Originally posted by Kumar
When i say for controlling people, i'm talking about old school catholic church style stuff where they tortured and killed people for "herecy" which was really just a person disagreeing with them...
Though it is and may always be subjective, note how I used the word "positive" in my description of religion.
How is it people can't think past the most primitive aspects of thier brain?
"Human beings cannot fathom nothingness!"
But you just did dumbass, so either
A: You're a lieing bastard. Who just likes to be a dick and make everyone else out to be stupider then you when you yourself don't believe half the shit you say.
B: You've fathomed nothingness thus proving human beings can but choose not to believe in it.
Or C: You've fathomed nothingness and are not human but some kindof mutant or alien or something.
Would it be too outrageous for you peons to possibly comprehend that heaven and hell are not dimensions granteed to us by brownie points or lack thereoff, but a place where spirits reside and build themselves?
Immagine it, Heaven is like a place with very strict border policies. Only ceartain people are allowed in, it's very exclusive. So it's a "paradise" in the sense there's no conflict and there's no dickery. (Presumably)
Everyone else goes to hell. Therefore there's going to be lots of conflict, lots of chaos, and much more dickery. (Again, presumably)
Originally posted by dadudemon
In my religion, even atheists don't go to hell, so I don't share the belief of fear that you expressed above. The reasoning behind my choosing faith instead of atheism is more of a selfless reason...not selfish. I want to be with my family in the after life. It would be selfish of me to not try my best to be a good person even if it had nothing to do with faith.Think about it:
Would you like to err on the side of not believing that God is there?
or
Would you like to err on the side of believing that God is there?
Essentially, when I chose faith over atheism, I chose the latter because I would want to look back at my life, IF there is an afterlife, and see that I made the appropriate choice. If there really isn't an afterlife, it wouldn't matter because no one will be able to tell me I was wrong because I won't exit.
No one can prove that there is no afterlife...ever. Even though with my studies in physics, I could clearly see how our universe was created without needing a God, that still doesn't not prove he doesn't exist.
It doesn't harm me or those around me to live my life with only good faith-based intentions. I do not force my religion on others. I don't go out of my way or even try to find fault with negative religious belief systems, but I am not perfect and sometimes, my logic gets the better of my goals and I find fault with another's belief system. (See thread about the Phelps group getting sued.)
You chose atheism because you find it more logical to err on the side that a God doesn't exit. There is no problem with that. IF God does exist, and you erred on the side of believing he didn't, there is always forgiveness, right? (Which is why I almost chose atheism.)
Fair enough. You seem to at least have a decent head on your shoulders about the whole thing, so I can't fault your reasons for doing it, though I don't like how you are equating a belief in God with selfless behavior (and non-belief with the opposite). There's nothing inherently immoral about atheism...hell, I feel like I'm probably more moral than many Christians due to the biases they have in place due to their beliefs.
Also, I would again question your criteria for belief in a deity when you yourself admit to being able to explain the creation and existence of the universe as it is without a God. Sure, he might still exist, but there's no logical reason for believing that he does. Your supposedly forgiving God would surely forgive a non-belief in Him, especially since He, in his divine wisdom ( 🙄 ) is lord over a universe that has no need of him to exist.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Fair enough. You seem to at least have a decent head on your shoulders about the whole thing, so I can't fault your reasons for doing it, though I don't like how you are equating a belief in God with selfless behavior (and non-belief with the opposite). There's nothing inherently immoral about atheism...hell, I feel like I'm probably more moral than many Christians due to the biases they have in place due to their beliefs.
I equate it to a selfless behavior for the most part. I do believe in a heaven that has entry prerequisites. Since I believe in that heaven, I want to be there with my family after I die. It would be selfish of me to not try my best to make it there with them. The selfish part is the exact same reason it is selfless...I want to be there with them when I die.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, I would again question your criteria for belief in a deity when you yourself admit to being able to explain the creation and existence of the universe as it is without a God. Sure, he might still exist, but there's no logical reason for believing that he does. Your supposedly forgiving God would surely forgive a non-belief in Him, especially since He, in his divine wisdom ( 🙄 ) is lord over a universe that has no need of him to exist.
The only thing it does is explains the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy..but it still does not explain the "why" for the universe. (Being logical, no religious person can just throw stuff down my throat and expect me to believe it.) The "whys" are why I continue to believe in a Creating Deity.
To address the forgiving portion you brought up.
Yes, he would forgive me. However, in my faith, I believe that there is more than one degree of happiness to obtain in heaven.
I don't want to make this a religion debate because I really do love the philosophy part of this.
Well, it's about heaven/hell, so it naturally intersects with religion some.
And creating a "why" for the universe is pretty much the same as creating a god or gods (which humans have done throughout their history). Both are subjective and created by the individual, not set forth by an omnipotent deity. The universe itself is inherently without meaning, until we bring meaning to it for ourselves.
I can appreciate your desire to realize a heaven-state at the end of life, I just think that it's still not on solid reasoning other than a vague "what if" scenario. There's as good a chance that you're wrong as there is that you're right, so enjoying family/friends/etc. in the moment is just as important as planning to spend eternity with them.