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Universe theory discussion
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GRIMNIR
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Universe theory discussion

This thread is for debate and discussion about the nature of the universe.

I will start with mine smile

The universe is INFINITE.
Infinite levels of both macro and micro cosmic substructure.
There was no beginning and there will be no end.
Matter does not exist. Energy does not exist. It is all the same depending on the observer's point of view.
Imagine someone went on a journey into the microcosm or macrocosm, taking with them a telescope and a microscope.
What would the universe look like to them after looking through each instrument?
I believe it would look the same at ALL levels of the infinite substructure.
Time does not exist. The only effect that space can have on time, is in a human head.
Time travel is science fiction and impossible.
If a human being wanted to travel "back to the 1920's", they would need to manipulate every single particle on every single level of the universe and arrange them in precisely the same way as they were at that "moment in time".
There is no empty space in the universe. EVERYTHING is connected.
The speed of light is not constant and neither is it the speed limit of the universe.
Why? Because the speed of light is different depending on the medium in which it is travelling, same as anything. There is no such thing as a vacuum, because there is no such thing a empty space.
If you were to go on another journey into the macrocosm or microcosm and observed a beam of light going through a galaxy, how fast is it going?
speed of light IS relative.

If thinking about the universe interests you too, please contribute your thoughts and ideas.

Universe = eek!

Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 02:00 AM
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Lord Lucien
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The universe is whatever the most intelligent looking website or YouTube video says it is.


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 05:12 AM
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King Kandy
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TBH you have misunderstood many concepts in the science you cited, particularly, the "speed of light in a vacuum" concept. The speed limit is not due to any property of light particles, rather it is the reverse. A light particle in a vacuum moves at that speed because it is the speed limit, and a massless particle will accelerate "infinitely". This is intuitive if you know some calculus. A=F/M, if you look at this as a limit in respects to M->0, you can see that acceleration diverges infinitely, the speed of light is the bound on that. Any massless particle would have this property, not just light.


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 05:19 AM
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GRIMNIR
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King Kandy
TBH you have misunderstood many concepts in the science you cited, particularly, the "speed of light in a vacuum" concept. The speed limit is not due to any property of light particles, rather it is the reverse. A light particle in a vacuum moves at that speed because it is the speed limit, and a massless particle will accelerate "infinitely". This is intuitive if you know some calculus. A=F/M, if you look at this as a limit in respects to M->0, you can see that acceleration diverges infinitely, the speed of light is the bound on that. Any massless particle would have this property, not just light.



instead of being critical of what i posted, why not just post your own theory
that is the first thing i have to say
next, what other concepts have i misunderstood or are you just exaggerating?

the speed of light is different depending on the medium in which it is travelling
is this statement correct?

i do not believe there is such a thing as a vacuum because it is impossible to remove all "particles", only the ones we can observe

you read the part where i said about infinite microcosm right?

so i am saying if the "particles" we do not know about were removed from our "vacuum" then the light could travel faster

then if a further layer of "unseen particles" were removed, the light could travel even faster and so on

basically i am saying, if light can go slower, why can it not go faster?

Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 06:21 AM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
the speed of light is different depending on the medium in which it is travelling
is this statement correct?


No, it is not.

Photons move at different speed in different mediums. The speed of light, the constant called c, does not change.


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 12:38 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
instead of being critical of what i posted, why not just post your own theory
that is the first thing i have to say

If you don't want criticism don't talk out of your ass. *shrug*


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 01:48 PM
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Gadreel17
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The Vibratory Nature of the Universe

Everything in the Universe is vibrating. Even light is vibrating (different frequencies of vibration give us the different Colors, just like different frequencies of vibration give us the different notes in an octave of sound).
The so called 5 senses, touch, smell, hearing, taste, and sight, are all biological "senors" that for the most part, detect vibration in different ways. While smell doesn't directly sense a vibration, it is directly sensing physical objects in the air, that have different vibrational parameters. Each sense perceives vibrations within specific, limited frequency bands. For example, through the sense of hearing, most people perceive vibrational frequencies in the 20 to 20,000 cycle per second range - we call "sound". The eyes pick up much faster vibrations that we call light.
But these 5 biological sensors we use, only pick up a very,very small part of the infinite vibrational frequency spectrum. There are other frequency bands that the 5 sense cannot perceive, which puts a BIG hole in our information about that is REALLY there. And for most people, this very limited data from the 5 Sensors is the only thing that allows them to be in touch with the wrold around them. We are, for the most part, virtually blind in this Universe.
Humans have built machines that pick up some vibrations we can't get with our 5 sense. These machines translate what they pick up into a range that we can get with one of our sense. For instance, out eyes don't pick up on x-rays - they only see the slower vibrating visible light range. So we made x-ray machines that take pictures to show us the result of using the x-rays, on a film that we can see with visible light. Can you imagine being able to see such things as -rays and gamma rays al the time? Radio waves are also in a vibrational frequency bans that is not within the range of any of our senses. The circuitry in a radio or TV changes these vibrations to frequencies of vibration our sense of sight and hearing can perceive. There are many things that we do not normally perceive.
Basically, life is one giant, cosmic illusion. To give you an easy-to- understand example of obvious illusions, consider the moderen invention of television, and the "picture" you see in it. The "pictures" we see are not pictures at all, but many individual lines of parts of the picture, flashings at us one at a time. They start at the top or bottom of the screen, and go to the other end. But these lines appear faster than our humsn perception can process, so we don't see them as inidivdual lines being flashed one at a time. Instead, the many lines seem to be there all the time, making whole pictures. Movies are similar. As many as 30 still pictures are being flashed in one secone. We see it as a seamless presentation, and have the illusion that people and things on the screen are moving, but they aren't. Certain animals with better perceptions just see the lines on a tavt, or the still pictures flashing during a movie.
This is just ONE of many examles. But there are even more far reachings illusions about life and the world around us. Even the TV se is not what it seems to us.
Even the most "solid" physical objects are but atoms (and the parts/energy they are composed of) vibratins at various rates, in various arrangements. These vibratory rates and arrangements of atoms are perceived by us, through one or more of the very limited 5 senses of the human body. We then process this sensory information,and in our limited consciousness, "perceive" these atom groups as the "things" that make up the world we live in, the things that are all around us -TV'S, cars, carpets, skin, air,-you name it. What we think all these things are, is the result of the warped assumptions our brain makes - the assumption being based on the very limited data we get from out senses, about a certain arrangement and frequency of vibration of atoms. And atoms are just a building block of the One thing - the "stuff" of the Universe. Thus, everything we think we see, is really just an illusion - not it's true form - just a "conceptual form" created by our brain. We put together an "image" or "idea" of what we think we're perceiving, by virture of our programming, expectations, experiences, etc., manipulatiing the bits of information we get from our highly limited senses.
We already start with a great handicap of perceiving such a small part of the world around us. Then to make matters worse, we process that information thought the "filters" of our emotions and preconceptions. This all leaves us with a very inaccurate illusion of reality.
And just a little change in the frequency of the vibration of atoms (how fast or slow they vibrate) in a molecule (group of atoms), can compltely change our perception of what it is. For example, we know the slower vibrating molecules of H2O as ice, a solid; as the frequency increases, we know them as water, a liquid; faster still as steam; faster yet as hydrogen and oxygen gas. Then where?
As vibrational frequency increases, amore etheric quality develops. Something may even seem to vanish (like steam), but nothing is ever lost in the Universe, it just changes form. Sometimes the apparant form is changed by atoms joining groups (molecules), or what I like "atomic cults". But regardless of how they are arranged, or how the appear, the true reality of it is that it's always the same One energy vibrating at different frequencies.
Indeed, ANYWHERE we look in life, be it outer space, or inner space, EVERYTHING is eithier atoms or solar systems. THey are like octaves of the same thing: micro/macro cosms. There is nothing else. What is a building? A tree? THey, and anything that seems to be something else, are but an assembly of atoms/solar systems.
I can't emphasizse the signifigance of this enough. It is one of the most important facts there is, and understanding its full meaning is one of the greats keys to understanding the Universe, and our lives.
They next great key can also be seen with stoms and solar systems. Is is their orbital pattern, their orbital relationship. It is the one primary pattern that exists in the Universe. It pervades everything, and all else is built upon it. I guess if you think about it, it's what our human male/female relationships are based on.
But wait, aren't orbits separate things amongst separate solar systems or atoms? How could it be what everything in the Universe is built upon? And how could it be what human relationships are based on?
Look into space at night. Each shining "star" you see is eithier a "Sun"- and object radiating light, that is surrounded by and orbited by planets, or a planet, giving off light reflected from the light of a star. Study what scientists have discovered about the "solid" objects that surround us - water, trees, buildings, stones, earth, plants, human bodies - they are all made of atoms. And what are atoms? Microscopic "stars" being orbited by planets, but very very tiny, and very very rapidly - they are an octave of the stars and our own solar system.
Consider: WHat if everything is orbiting something else? What if when you get smaller than atoms, and bigger than solar systems, the same or similar, circular orbital pattern is found? It does- in some way or another, even thought they haven't been discovered yet. What if it goes on infinitely like a never ending spiral? It must. It is the pattern of creation.
If you contemplate it for a while, the "pattern" of an atom or solar system is, in a sense, the only reality. It is the primary form of life in the universe. This pattern is the basis of the building blocks of our illusions. And what is it comprised of? THis amazing, all pervasive pattern consists of "individual" parts functioning as One. THis Oneness is acheived by virtue of the nature of the polarities of the individual parts - plus/minus,male/female. Electrons of an atom are like the planets of a solar system. They are oppisitely charged (the opposite"sex") to the nucleus of an atom, and they are attracted to each other - just as the planets and "Sun" of a solar system are. The polarized parts flow together in a particular "way" that is dictated by Universal law. The pattern is orbital because of the nature of polarized reltaionships in space. There is always a center, a central sphere that gives, that flows out energy, and "attracts" -and that central object is surrounded by objects that are attracted to, and attach themselves to, the center object. In the case of an atom, the nucleus is the center that all the electrons revolve around. They are the same thing. The outer objects' (electrons or planets) momentum,their "speed" as they travel through space, becomes a circular movement once they are atrracted to and attached to their central object (the Sun, a Star, or a Nucleus). THat movements cyclic- in other words,it keeps orbiting around and around at a certain speed, repeating it's cycle in a given period of time, thus a vibrational occurence is created of "cycles" per... something (second,day, year, whatever). In the case of the Earth orbiting the Sun, it is 1 cycle per year. In the case of other planets it is faster or slower. In the case of atoms, it is very,very fast- and different for each atom.

Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 02:16 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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Those circular electron orbits are neither circular nor orbits.


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 02:27 PM
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Gadreel17
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Taking this a step fuhrther, what if everything is orbiting something, which is also orbiting something else? THat all of them function as ONE. And a complex vibrational pattern exists. THey each link up with all other objects, becoming a part of their flow and one with them. In the entirety of the Universe, All things are interconnected as One in thie way. And the basis of all this is the Universal pattern we exemplified so perfectly in the atom or solar systems. It follows and reflects Universal law perfectly. This pattern flows in harmony with Universal order.
What if this form, this pattern, represents the relationship of beings? What is each atom is a conscious being composed of soulmate beings (each planet and "Sun" is a being, in and of itself, that make One being together)? What if every being plays two roles, like both parent and child at the same time- surrendering to something, and directing something? What is every "star" is both in an outflowing,"positive polarity","directing" position to it's planets, but also like a "planet" to something else that orbits it, or is affected by it? All of the above is true.
Many,many things can be learned and understood by contemplating the above concept. Contemplation of this pattern has guided the understanding of masters, in all matters of Universal and Earthly life, and thus can also provide the contemplative seeker with profound answers.
Truly understanding the meaning of this patter, and applying it to human life, can provide the deepest understanding of the nature of men and women, and male/female relationships. It is the perfect patter of the harmonious interaction of polar opposites. Thus, with contemplaton, it can show us the way to ave perfect relationships, helping us achieve perfectly harmonious interaction with our own soulmates, and other humans.

Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 02:30 PM
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GRIMNIR
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Gadreel17
Taking this a step fuhrther, what if everything is orbiting something, which is also orbiting something else? THat all of them function as ONE. And a complex vibrational pattern exists. THey each link up with all other objects, becoming a part of their flow and one with them. In the entirety of the Universe, All things are interconnected as One in thie way. And the basis of all this is the Universal pattern we exemplified so perfectly in the atom or solar systems. It follows and reflects Universal law perfectly. This pattern flows in harmony with Universal order.
What if this form, this pattern, represents the relationship of beings? What is each atom is a conscious being composed of soulmate beings (each planet and "Sun" is a being, in and of itself, that make One being together)? What if every being plays two roles, like both parent and child at the same time- surrendering to something, and directing something? What is every "star" is both in an outflowing,"positive polarity","directing" position to it's planets, but also like a "planet" to something else that orbits it, or is affected by it? All of the above is true.
Many,many things can be learned and understood by contemplating the above concept. Contemplation of this pattern has guided the understanding of masters, in all matters of Universal and Earthly life, and thus can also provide the contemplative seeker with profound answers.
Truly understanding the meaning of this patter, and applying it to human life, can provide the deepest understanding of the nature of men and women, and male/female relationships. It is the perfect patter of the harmonious interaction of polar opposites. Thus, with contemplaton, it can show us the way to ave perfect relationships, helping us achieve perfectly harmonious interaction with our own soulmates, and other humans.


I am glad you understood the point of this thread (unlike the other mindless trolls roll eyes (sarcastic) )

Your ideas are very interesting and reminded me of a couple of additional thoughts of my own.

When we observe the world around us we see other people, animals, buildings etc and it appears that the space between everything is empty.
But, we know from science that the empty space, air, is actually made up of billions upon billions of atoms and molecules.
Now, if we went on a journey to the atomic level and observed the same environment, we would no longer see any of the people, animals, buildings, we would see only atoms and molecules and our universe would appear very different.
The people, animals and buildings would no longer exist, from our perspective.
Then if we went on another journey deeper into the microcosm, the atoms and molecules would no longer exist and the universe would be different once again.
Imagining what people, animals and buildings look like, at this level, would be so alien and beyond our comprehension, just like it is for us to comprehend our universe.
What if this is the case for us now.
The universe could in fact be nothing more than a subatomic particle to someone or something observing from a level much higher up in the macro world.

Second thought is regarding life, consciousness and thought.
There could be forms of life beyond the subatomic level and they are right now, wondering about their universe in much the same way we are doing.
To them a single atom is the universe and the idea that we exist is beyond comprehension.
This could also be true of us as well.
Our universe could be just one single atom, part of billions and billions of atoms that make up a living creature, that has thought and consciousness.
Imagine if someone right now is looking down a microscope, observing our universe and wondering what makes us tick eek!

Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 05:00 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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Sockpuppet is sock but commendably committed to the show.


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 05:10 PM
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darkriddle
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I have a somewhat similar idea to the universe that "GRIMNIR" does. Although about the speed of light, my idea is that, like he mentioned, it might be more flexible than we imagined. Of course this walks hand in hand with the recent discoveries by the particle accelerator experiments.

Still, there has a lot to be proven in terms of whether or not they clocked particles moving faster than the speed of light.

The big contention here, is that they claim IF they did prove they were moving faster than the speed of light - then Einstein's Theory of General Relativity would be wrong. (E=MC Square)

It's not unusual for physicists to conjure up new and innovative theories; this is how they came up with "String" theory and before that the whole contingent of Quantum Mechanics.

Personally, I'd be surprised if they prove Einstein wrong, but that's what science is meant for...to test our accepted knowledge and pushed forward to new and credible discoveries.

Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 05:47 PM
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Digi
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@gadreel - tl;dr Cliffs Notes it, summarize, and/or format better.

@darkriddle - Agreed on your last sentence there, but be very careful about jumping to premature conclusions or even suppositions about a single particle test that neither you nor I have technical knowledge of. Keep in mind, the results were released because the scientists involved were convinced they were wrong.

@Grim - has your theory been peer-reviewed?

You can't just offer a theory with noticeable flaws and expect it to go uncriticized. This is the internet for christ's sake. That's not trolling, it's discussion. Learn the difference.

We're not in a position to offer overarching theories of the universe without positioning ourselves in a similar seat of ignorance. I once tried to use black holes to justify the existence of comic book universes. It was an awesome theory, but no less dependent on incomplete and incorrect interpretations of the laws of physics as we know them.

But you asked for theories. So...

My theory is that we're in a deterministic universe bound by the laws of physics. Everything that exists has a logical cause and effect from that which came before and that which will follow. Beyond that would be me speculating idly.


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 05:54 PM
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darkriddle
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi

@darkriddle - Agreed on your last sentence there, but be very careful about jumping to premature conclusions or even suppositions about a single particle test that neither you nor I have technical knowledge of. Keep in mind, the results were released because the scientists involved were convinced they were wrong.



I agree, but I do not claim that the CERN or Hadron parties are correct either, just that they are doing what they should be doing, which is furthering the knowledge of the universe by testing some already established & widely accepted theories.

It would also be keen to note that they are making many other discoveries that are just as important, but do not have the Headline-Grabbing pull that this "faster-than-speed-of-light" phenomenon does.

Considering their more recent efforts to shed light on "Dark Matter" no pun intended, it would seem that their use of particle accelerators is venturing into more innovative venues.

...Unless of course they do create a black hole that grows and sucks us all in. ...I was just kidding on that last part. LOL

Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 06:11 PM
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tsilamini
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I don't understand what is meant by universe theory? do you mean a theory of the universe?


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 07:04 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
The universe could in fact be nothing more than a subatomic particle to someone or something observing from a level much higher up in the macro world.
You could be on the right track...
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
“There is an idea – strange, haunting, evocative – one of the most exquisite conjectures in science or religion. It is entirely undemonstrated; it may never be proved. But it stirs the blood. There is, we are told, an infinite hierarchy of universes, so that an elementary particle, such as an electron, in our universe, would if penetrated, reveal itself to be an entire closed universe. Within it, organized into the local equivalent of galaxies and smaller structures, an immense number of other, much tinier elementary particles, which are themselves universes at the next level, and so on forever – an infinite downward regression, universes within universes endlessly. And upward as well. Our familiar universe of galaxies and stars, planets and people, would be a single elementary particle in the next universe up, the first step of another infinite regress.”

-- Carl Sagan, "Cosmos"
I miss Carl.


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2011 08:22 PM
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King Kandy
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
instead of being critical of what i posted, why not just post your own theory
that is the first thing i have to say
next, what other concepts have i misunderstood or are you just exaggerating?

the speed of light is different depending on the medium in which it is travelling
is this statement correct?

i do not believe there is such a thing as a vacuum because it is impossible to remove all "particles", only the ones we can observe

you read the part where i said about infinite microcosm right?

so i am saying if the "particles" we do not know about were removed from our "vacuum" then the light could travel faster

then if a further layer of "unseen particles" were removed, the light could travel even faster and so on

basically i am saying, if light can go slower, why can it not go faster?

My background is in science, so, I don't just hypothesize things off the top of my head and present them, I look for evidence. I just presented some contrary points to your idea; if you are interested in science, you should be happy to have that happen. By definition, no scientific theory is above criticism; that would make it a dogma, not a theory. So you should not be looking at criticism as some kind of assault, but a learning opportunity. All theoretical advancements are made amidst intense criticism. I'm trying to give you advice, not demean you.

I just explained this to you. "speed of light" does not refer to the speed of actual photons, but the speed an uninterrupted massless particle would assume in a vacuum; light being one example of such a particle. It is not the limit imposed by false vacuums (that limit would actually be slightly below C). So if you removed all "unseen" (in physics, we would call these virtual) particles, light would move at C. Like I said, C represents a bound on speeds, not the speed of some real object. So "if light can go slower, why can it not go faster" really has nothing to do with it; the experimental speed of light in a medium, is a completely distinct concept for C which is the bound for speeds of particles. If light was in a vacuum, it would move at C because it would achieve the highest bound on speed. This is the reason why C is called the "speed of light".

So, you are correct in some sense; if you remove particles, light will go faster. But it would not exceed C, because C already refers to such a situation.


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Old Post Oct 26th, 2011 01:34 AM
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Digi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by King Kandy
My background is in science, so, I don't just hypothesize things off the top of my head and present them, I look for evidence. I just presented some contrary points to your idea; if you are interested in science, you should be happy to have that happen. By definition, no scientific theory is above criticism; that would make it a dogma, not a theory. So you should not be looking at criticism as some kind of assault, but a learning opportunity. All theoretical advancements are made amidst intense criticism. I'm trying to give you advice, not demean you.


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Old Post Oct 26th, 2011 03:16 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
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Even the ****ing moderators are trolls

**** this forum of *****

I wish great pain, misery and suffering to every troll and his family

Old Post Oct 26th, 2011 03:48 PM
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Digi
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I'm applauding his comments. Care to respond to them?

Stating an opinion then getting upset and declaring widespread trolling when anyone brings criticism against is simply childish and unrealistic. We're not trolls, we're adults.


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