Please, destroy this with logic and reasoning, if you can (seriously...my idea is very infantile and I need to make it better).
But I was thinking about this when putting up the new shades for my windows (boring task requires something to occupy the brain, right).
Assume two things:
1. Humans can create biological immortality.
2. "Brain uploads" are also possible.
At least one major problem arises from 1: there are a finite number of things in the universe but human growth is geometric meaning we will eventually reproduce faster than we can create resources. So we will need some sort of pragmatic method of population control.
Here is my solution and it relies on 2: quantum computing.
In quantum computing, we are supposed to reach the point of being able to store/process more information than the entire universe has in it. What does this mean? It means that all data in the universe, down to a tiny little quark floating around all on it's lonesome, is accounted for by a q-bit somewhere (a quantum computer that only uses a bit over 300 q-bits can, supposedly, accomplish this). This means we could create a digital universe to store ourselves after some mandatory "physical" living. Meaning, we retire to the digital universe. This digital universe can be expanded to nearly infinite universes by physical means in this current universe. Meaning, we would solve the problem of reproducing too quickly. Picture each digital universe as just being like a "different server".
We could also adopt some sort of semi-fascist system where only a finite amount of people are allowed to reproduce per some random unit of time. Then there should be a steady flow of people out of reality in the digital-verse through suicide so we should reach and equilibrium at some point and stabilize.
Alright, I'm ready for my idea to be torn to shreds. Let me have it.
Edit - I can already think of one problem: heat death. Regardless of immortality, our quantum computers will eventually die. We would need to completely master matter and have a machine that overcomes entropy at a greater pace than it occurs.
Can you really perfectly simulate the universe on just 300 q-bits? That seems really low. I would think a simulation of all the particles engaging in all their actions would require a computer exactly the size of the universe. Like to simulate a single interaction you need to do at least one thing in the computer so if you simulate every interaction between every particle you need that many "things" in the computer. Er, that's an awful explanation.
Still, if that's possible (and you know a lot more about computers than I do) even those computers will run out of space if you allow for enough growth since the machine is still based in the physical world. More space can be squeezed out of reality by being more efficient as we grow. A digital universe doesn't need perfect rules unless the players do.
The only way I can think of for even more infinite growth is the run both in parallel and in sequence. Have a million digital universes running simultaneously for a year. At the end compress them down to a tiny amount of data and load the next million universes. This way you can use most your computing mass to hold people and very little to constantly run equations.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
Last edited by Symmetric Chaos on Dec 18th, 2011 at 07:49 PM
A bit more than 300 is required to represent the universe. A perfected quantum computer allows for computational ability stupidly faster than what we have now. This is on top of a stupid amount of information being able to be stored. The common term thrown around is "300 qbits to represent every single atom and it's position in the universe". A bit more should be able to accommodate the algorithms that would govern those atoms (no need to design things like quarks into the system...or even some types of physics because you can cut corners in a digital world).
We are currently building...what...4 qbit computers? It appears to be geometric in growth.
And, no, your explanation is perfectly understandable.
I have seen the quantum computers at MIT. They are supercooled and are in big ass canisters. These are not feasible for our future quantum computers. So we would need to perfect them, first, before we can start doing anything real with them. But, they say progress is steady and we are already designing algorithms around how different qbits act over regular bits. For instance, the tiny tiny computers we have no are being used to crack encryption. If someone were to tell a a cryptologist from the 70s that we can crack DES in less than 10 minutes using only a "4-bit" computing environment, they'd tell you to STFU and GTFO. We can crack DES with 256 bit cards dedicated to just cracking DES, now, but the quantum computers make the regular computers look silly. We are not anywhere even close to being able to unlock all the ways we can employ the bizarre nature of qbits.
But assume all that crap has been worked out and we are building quantum computers about the size of the ones at MIT but they put are 300+ qbit computers. Each one would represent something similar to the size and general complexity of our universe. If we bump up the complexity of our quantum computers (it does not work like this but we could make it like...say...the 16 bit graphics cards versus the 512 bit graphics cards we have today: they are still the same size but their complexities are MASSIVELY different by many powers) but even a few powers (again, 400 qbit computing environment is geometrically more complex than a 300 qbit one), we could have one quantum computer dedicated to a single multiverse.
Edit - Just saw that you said the digital universe does not need to be perfectly matching to our own. I agree. I should have read down further. But, yes, the computers would be no bigger than a small vat.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Keep in mind that the "perception" of self cannot be lost or else it is the same as death. If you stop the program from running even a little bit, everyone dies. The clones would not have the continuous subjective perception of self (that would require a soul...and my scenario assumes we don't have one).
But, yeah, explain what you mean here as I don't understand. I understand how you can compress lots of data through running it through a compression algorithm over and over and over, but I don't understand why you would do that.
Lastly, I thought of something awesome: you can totally change the perception of time in each universe with "clock cycles" in the such. Just program the "interface" to run at a certain speed and adjust the "perception of time" algorithms to slow down to match that clock. Then you can fit in looooooooooong amounts of time in digiverses in a very very short amount of time in the real world. So there are two dimensions to increasing the amount of universes: time perception and creating more universes with more complex quantum computers.
The simple solution is to actually put a cap on the ability to have children. Set the cap to be perfectly in tune with the amount of people "quitting" and then you have a waiting list in the digital world. Problem solved. Right?
My guess is, this machine is going to have to exist in more than three dimensions. Otherwise, it's not going to have a platform, a perspective, from which to manipulate the context of entropy.
This is godtech, me bucko.
__________________
Shinier than a speeding bullet.
We'd have to feed that anti-entropy machine "quarks" at a rate fast enough to keep all of our quantum computers fully "formed". Considering the half life of protons is really really long, we could do this without much difficulty or "speedyness".
It would require we create the protons (via quarks...one of the only remaining pure forms of matter in the universe after heat death) at a pace require to have our quantum computers stay powered on, the supporting structures around it to be supported, and the computers them selves fully replenished. I need to clarify that I am not the only person to have thought of the need for an anti-entropy machine.
Sheesh, this proves I am way too ****ing ignorant for this forum. <__< The concept seems cool although I'm probably like a dog appreciating a laser pointer merely for the pretty little dot it creates rather than the complex ingenuity that went in to making it. It all seems like magic to me. D:
__________________ Hey papi, Hey ese, Hey whiteboy,
Tell me what you need!
What's good? Talk to me. Work with me, man!
I got everything!
You uploading into the computer environment and live there for a while.
You download into a highly compressed form to be stored for a given amount of time so there is room for the next group to live.
You uploading into the computer environment later when they cycle out.
Since we're assuming no soul continuity of experience shouldn't matter much. Neither the copy nor the original can be privileged. Constant uploading should be unimportant. Alternately you can move people into a low resolution universe and have them go comatose, less argument for them dying.
That requires a constant supply of people leaving which isn't guaranteed unless you make it mandatory (which is sort of what my plan is).
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
Last edited by Symmetric Chaos on Dec 18th, 2011 at 11:56 PM
Oh, I get it. However, they are still "dying". Since there is no continuous perception of self, they are dead for all intents and purposes. That's the exact opposite of the goal. I like your comatose idea, better. That way, they still maintain a perception of self but they are in a lesser brain form just dreaming. But isn't that the same as being in another universe? Just a more nebulous one...and everyone could share the same dream-space (like all of the mystics think exist now, anyway...lololol Problem solved forthe mystics).
Well, I am taking for granted that the human psyche is not designed to live forever so people would have differing levels of "time" tolerance. We'd all want to rest in peace eventually. Some would go because of shitty circumstances (shame or something). But I could be wrong on all accounts because we can quickly adjust our brain with some super digital psychology therapy crap.
However, I just thought of something that solves the whole thing: creating a quantum computer within the digital universe. Think about it: if the rules are just about the same, then you could create another quantum universe within a quantum universe. Because the rules are the same, the universe is created through the behaviors of the matter. It is cheating the system of "it can only store so much information". It is getting the program to work holistically. You could do this an infinite amount of times with infinite depth. Problem solved?
No: because the original -verse would still need to avoid heat death so the anti-entropy machine is still needed to keep the infinite chains going.
Edit - But here's what's great about a digital universe that works like our own: running low on power to do something? Just change a variable with high level permission and you get as much power needed (as long as that universe isn't close to being full, of course) That's super cool.
Double edit - this universe within a universe thing allows for infinitely complex AI. This means we could truly create a god-like AI with this. This BEGS the question: are we already in a simulated universe? This pisses me off...the question. What if we already ARE in the simulation and we are just living lives with our "memories" wiped just for fun? What if this is the way we are entertaining ourselves: cutting off the memories in our simulation just to entertain ourselves for eternity. What if we are all gods, already, and we are experiencing an infinite number of lives (in an infinite multiverse) simultaneously all at once and we are doing this for an infinite amount of time all at a single infinitesimal instant? What if that's just one being experiencing this existence in the multiverse and we are all just just extremely restricted aspects of such a being? WTF? Too much regression and progression can be made from these thought expirements.
__________________
Last edited by dadudemon on Dec 19th, 2011 at 12:32 AM
Nah, you're fine. Just think about how complex things can become if you think about things becoming complex and it is just like taking drugs...or becoming crazy. Both?
That's theorized in "The Omega Point". The Omega Point is the point at which human consciousness expands to a point that we can predict all points in time (this assumes that if we know all information in the universe, we can recreate all things and events in our ultra digital simulations). This also means that we can revive our dead ones in the simulation: similar to the Christian/Muslim resurrection.
Google Search Omega Point for a better understanding of WTF I'm talking about. It's better explained on some blogs out there.
But, yes, in a simulated universe, no one really technically dies ever. They are just brought back instantly from a backup copy. We could actually be running in parallel in multiple places to ensure that we never lose a sense/perception of self to ensure that we never truly die (cause if your "program" dies and you are revived from a backup, your perception of self has ended and a new "self" is born from your backup copy...so that's a form of death and not something that a person would want if they are wanting to be immortal). Don't forget about hackers, damnit! Damn hackers!
If uploading and downloading is death then your system only really gives the potential immortality to those born in the computer.
Even in to comatose system you get savings by running a very simple world to store them since they don't need to interact with anything. In the living universe you get five billion people per virtual planet, in the sleeping universe you fit a trillion for the same amount of processing power.
Or voluntarily rewrite your personality. Once you have the ability to shuffle brains around you almost certainly will end up with the ability to control them with great precision. This raises questions of identity, though.
That seems pretty clearly impossible due to thermodynamics.
Of course you have proposed an anti-entropy machine so maybe that part of physics has been thrown out the window. Heck if you have one of those just make an infinitely powerful computer without stacking universes inside of universes.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
Sounds a bit like the plot of Assassin's Creed with the collective subconcious and whatnot. You're probably right about hackers too. They'd probably screw everything up for everyone.
__________________ Hey papi, Hey ese, Hey whiteboy,
Tell me what you need!
What's good? Talk to me. Work with me, man!
I got everything!
No, the cessation of the subjective perception of consciousness would be death. The idea of immortality and digitizing your "brain" is doable without a stop in thought avoiding death. That includes uploads and downloads because all it requires is parallel "location" then switching off from the old to new location. (Bring yourself online with two different areas, at once. You'd have two perceptions, at the same time, of self...in two locations. Then switch off the old. This all works much better if we have a "soul" program that is always on and can never be shutoff.)
Possibly. Very sparse dreaming (active coma) is definitely much easier to deal with than a fully awake and demanding "sentience".
Yeah, people could choose to be "reincarnated". Some would choose that now. Drink the "Elixir of Life"...start new. Then see their past life in full at the end of their next life and measure how much they did compared to the old life.
No, it's a question of power, not entropy. You'd just need the power to run the make believe quantum computer inside of the digital verse. By your logic, we could not create the first computer because it would violate the law of thermodynamics: it would have more data in it than the universe it sprung from.
The same would hold true for the quantum computer (QC) inside the quantum computer: the power to run the simulation is the only problem: the virtual q-bits create the new universe inside of the system. The QC inside of the QC would be neutral to the new universe run in the system: the old system is not sentient or self aware so it would not prevent a harmless simulation running into another simulation. Remember, the main QC does not car that some of the things it simulates can be more than one thing at once...as long as you create those physics. To the parent QC, it will not act as though it just doubled it's memory requirement because the existing memory is still allocated and "remembered" for the qbits inside of the parent QC. It's still just the rearrangement and reading of the same exact particles. Why would be the parent QC be aware of what the child QC is doing when it comes to a holistic program? (Keep in mind that a QC of more than 300 qbits, by nature, is already holistic in design: it is greater than the sum of its parts by absurd amounts). The parent QC will be blind to that holistic construction and it only needs to store the algorithms that run the quauntum physics and the general positions and velocities of the quantum states.
My subjective perception of consciousness stops daily.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Is that supposed to be a way to not technically die during uploading? If so it strikes me as extremely tenuous existing with the double for a while doesn't count for anything in my book. You wouldn't have two perceptions, either, each you would have one perception but one would experience having suddenly moved.
What happened to conservation of energy? An infinite number of shells contains an infinite amount of information. Information doesn't exist without a physical or energy basis. You have to run out eventually.
If you could build shells like this then why didn't we immediately use a 2 qubit computer to simulate a 4 qubit computer and so on until we had an arbitrarily large one? The first quantum computer should have created a singularity.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
That's how server clusters basically work. I took the idea from that. And existing as double would be instantaneously perceived as long as we don't turn ourselves into "Neo" type characters. The switch does not have to be long and arduous for both the person and the QC: it can be almost instant. And, yes, if you had perfect time perception, for the brief moment you were "on" in both locations, you could fully (and subjectively) experience both locations at once. Yes, this means we will have insta-teleportation in my thought experiment. No more travel time unless you want it. HOORAY!
But the play q-bits don't consume more energy. They are still powered with the "real" world. And each successive world becomes lesser and lesser in power consumption: it would be asymptotic in power consumption. But since the power consumed is holistically realized, the result is greater than the sum of it's parts (massively so). I hope that makes sense. It makes sense in my head but I am having a hard time making it make sense in words.
That's an easy answer:
Because we don't know how to design perfect quantum universes inside of virtual machines, yet. Once we can do that, then we can build perfect quantum universes inside of our virtual universe. Also, I am using the word "perfect" in an unconditionally misleading way: I am aware that "quantum" and perfect cannot exist as the same concept (lolololo).
There is absolutely no reason I can think of for either body to experience both perceptions that doesn't involve assuming either a soul or telepathy.
The only thing I can think of that sort of gets to what you're saying is to call the both of them a single holistic entity, but that's a pretty meaningless statement. Exactly such an imaginary holistic creature exists between the two of us right now.
How can those qubits consume less energy while holding as much information? If that happens it only means your higher level computers are being inefficient. Otherwise you're getting free information and free information means free energy.
We don't need to make perfect quantum universes. We just need to simulate a few particles more than we have qubits in the real machine.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
Why would your digital perceptions (because you exist in two places at once while being transferred) require a soul (real)? But, yes, you can create a soul algorithm to solve everything: I suggested that.
All you're doing is expanding that person's perception to two locations: that's it. Then you remove the old location perception. Think of it like adding a third eyeball in the back of your head and then designing the brain to include that as part of your perceptions. Now expand that out to all the senses. Now you can observe two places at once (the single 3D image from the front and a single 2d image from the back). These perceptions exist in two places and your "self" exists in an entirely different place than either of them: ergo, a soul routine.
Because they require less energy than the previous one to create the same effect. The real reality will require the most energy. The fake reality only requires the energy it is already provided by the simulation (it is fake energy inside the system). This is what is so awesome about something being greater than the sum of it's parts...aka...QCs.
No, it means that your lower level computers can only consume the power given to it by the higher level computer but not to exceed in total consumption from the master-verse.
Sort of. You'll still not exceeding the real universe's energy being supplied. But, yes, that's what's great about exceeding your universe without requiring all matter in that universe to create such a computer. That's why some people are shitting themselves over quantum computing (well, not directly for my reasons but the fact that you can put in a small amount of energy into a system and get tons of information out of it. If you build a complex enough QC, you can get more information out of it than the entire universe contains.
I agree and I think I stated this in the OP. But we are delving into an area that I don't think we can even begin to quantify.
Let me see if I understand:
First you have your original body.
Next you hook it up to a computer so you can see through its senses and your own.
The computer makes a copy that is seeing through your eyes.
Finally the original body is destroyed.
The computer mind remains, recalling all of the original memories without any blips.
I don't consider preserving that continuity of experience important enough to jump through those hoops. There's no practical difference from traditional uploading and, without a soul, no metaphysical one. I can see why people would do it psychologically, though.
I don't think we can really have a discussion about this. My expertise in the subject are nonexistent and what you're proposing contradicts everything I know about physics, logic, and computing. There is absolutely no way for me to come to a conclusion on the subject.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
KMC Community Forums
Dec 18th, 2011 07:17 PM
